Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 284704 times)

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #275 on: 03 August, 2012, 01:25:11 am »
I've noted a seeming complete absence of mention of LA throughout this years tour commentary, newspaper coverage, and the Olympic road racing. Interesting.

There was some mention of Lance in an article by Paul Kimmage in The Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2177405/Bradley-Wiggins-battle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html

That's the kind of article that the Times might have run, but Kimmage was cut from the Times in the wake of the News of the World debacle, so it might be sour grapes, or a case of the chicken and the egg.
http://www.sportsjournalists.co.uk/jobs/kimmage-and-hawkey-cut-from-sunday-times-sport/

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #276 on: 03 August, 2012, 07:42:52 am »
Kimmage is of course the 'Anti-Lance'. With the Murdochs firmly behind British Cycling, Wiggins writing a column in The Guardian and the Telegraph catering for an audience of cycling enthusiasts, The Mail is his last refuge. I suppose the parrallel with Sky would be Deutsche Telekom with Riis and Ullrich, who were single-time Tour winners propelled by a big-money sponsor. Their success was on top of that of Zabel, who mentored Cav's success, Cav having ridden with Telekom of course.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #277 on: 04 August, 2012, 12:25:41 am »
Here's an interesting development I spotted being discussed elsewhere.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12563/USADA-denies-UCI-request-to-take-control-of-ArmstrongUSPS-doping-proceedings.aspx

Quote
The US Anti Doping Agency has rejected a call by the UCI to allow it to assume responsibility for the doping investigation into Lance Armstrong and others in relation to the US Postal Service team, and had also turned down a request for it to hand over the entire case file.

The UCI’s president Pat McQuaid had previously indicated that USADA had jurisdiction but, in two letters dated July 13th, had said that it wanted to take over the case.

USADA gave the UCI a somewhat dusty response:

Quote
USADA’s CEO Travis T. Tygart has said the agency would not deviate from its investigation. “The USPS Doping Conspiracy was going on under the watch of UCI, so of course UCI and the participants in the conspiracy who cheated sport with dangerous performance enhancing drugs to win have a strong incentive to cover up what transpired,” he said.

So what's made Fat Pat change his mind? Curiouser and curiouser...
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #278 on: 05 August, 2012, 01:45:24 pm »
In his book Kimmage painted McQuaid in a pretty poor light re doping I seem to recall

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #279 on: 08 August, 2012, 08:10:40 am »

WADA comes in to support USADA, suggesting that UCI doesn't understand its own rules: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-does-have-jurisdiction-over-armstrong-case-says-wada

Quote
WADA Director General David Howman first wrote to UCI President Pat McQuaid on August 7 and then released a statement today explaining that cycling's governing body should be providing assistance to USADA.

"As clarified in the WADA letter, Article 15.3 states that the Anti-Doping Organization (ADO) 'which discovered the violation' must have results management authority, and not the ADO which discovered the first shred of evidence which then led to the discovery of violations," the Agency said in a statement.

WADA also explained that there is "no provision" within its rules "that allows the UCI to interfere with the USADA case" or demand to see the USADA-compiled evidence.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #280 on: 08 August, 2012, 02:10:20 pm »
Quote
WADA also explained that there is "no provision" within its rules "that allows the UCI to interfere with the USADA case" or demand to see the USADA-compiled evidence.

WADA backing up USADA is a no-brainer, they haven't seen eye-to-eye with the UCI in the past, if my memory serves. Given that prior to July 13th (see my previous post), Pat McQuaid had said that USADA had jurisdiction in this case, the more cynical observer would be inclined to think that it's not so much that the UCI don't understand its own rules, it's more that the UCI is conveniently ignoring them.  ;)
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #281 on: 09 August, 2012, 12:57:42 am »
The Inner Ring has a good piece on the latest developments: http://inrng.com/2012/08/uci-vs-president-mcquaid/#more-10348

WADA backing up USADA raises the stakes significantly.

Quote from: The Inner Ring
What next?
The UCI has a choice. It must decide whether to bow to WADA or continue to dispute things, either in open conflict via press releases or perhaps even going to the Court of Arbitration for Sport to plead its case. To continue the spat would risk being labelled “non-compliant” with the WADA Code. All signatories have a duty to uphold the Code in full.

If WADA is not satisfied it can impose strict sanctions. Here’s the WADA website:

Quote
What happens if a sports organization or a government does not comply with the Code?
WADA reports cases of non-compliance to its stakeholders who have jurisdiction to impose sanctions, including the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The Olympic charter was amended in 2003 to state that adoption of the Code by the Olympic movement is mandatory. Only sports that adopt and implement the Code can be included and remain in the program of the Olympic Games.

Note the last sentence: if a governing body doesn’t follow the Code, it can be ejected from the Olympics.

Consider how many* of the medals won by Team GB were courtesy of the cyclists...

* Leaving aside the admittedly less certain medal prospects in the upcoming BMX and MTB XC events.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #282 on: 09 August, 2012, 07:33:10 am »
Oh yeah, like that counts for a lot. Victor Conti has today claimed that six out of ten athletes at the Olympics are using PEDs and that it's easy to avoid testing positive. Now, he may well have an axe to grind but are the IOC and/or WADA going to investigate his claims properly?

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #283 on: 09 August, 2012, 08:30:48 am »
Hmmm, just read the inner ring article and I think it's all part of an evil UCI conspiracy to stop TeamGB dominating the cycling at Rio. They've tried restricting the pool of competitors and that didn't work so the only thing they can do now is get cycling removed from the Olympics and to hide the fact that it's an anti-TeamGB manoeuvre they're using the "non-adherence to anti-doping policies" gambit.  Very cunning eh wot?

IGMC, it's the one with the tin-foil hat in the pocket...  :)
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #284 on: 13 August, 2012, 11:11:18 pm »
In this week's episode...

After making a series of cryptic Tweets in recent days, Jonathan Vaughters has come out and confessed to doping, in an article he wrote for the New York Times about how to clean up sport.

As the Inner Ring's latest post says, this time JV has used clear language rather than expecting the world to read between the lines, as per his 2010 interview with Cycling News.

And Tyler Hamilton, Armstrong's trusted lieutenant in his first three TdF wins, has a book out, co-written with Daniel Coyle. According to the blurb on Amazon, "The Secret Race is a definitive look at the world of professional cycling—and the doping issue surrounding this sport and its most iconic rider, Lance Armstrong"

Amusingly, the publication date of September 18th happens to be Armstrong's birthday.  ;D

Book available at Amazon.com
Kindle only on Amazon.co.uk
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Case dismissed!
« Reply #285 on: 20 August, 2012, 06:20:41 pm »
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/judge-sides-with-usada-in-armstrong-suit

Quote
The judge chose to dismiss the case because "Armstrong's due process claims lack merit" and "the Court lacks jurisdiction over Armstrong's remaining claims, or alternatively declines to grant equitable relief on those claims".

The full details of the judge's decision: http://www.scribd.com/doc/103348811/Sparks-Decision

So, Armstrong now has four days to either take ze punishment, or go to arbitration, where all witness testimony and other evidence will be aired publicly.

Now the real fun begins...
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #286 on: 20 August, 2012, 06:56:07 pm »
Wow. Worlds change in the blink of an eye.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #287 on: 20 August, 2012, 07:07:55 pm »
There must be a lot of runners-up hoping to get their names in the TdF record books (and that their own doping doesn't come to light).
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #288 on: 20 August, 2012, 07:15:24 pm »
It is unlikely Ullrich cares
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #289 on: 20 August, 2012, 07:20:46 pm »
I'd agree with Sparks' conclusion on pages 28 and 29.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/103348811/Sparks-Decision

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #290 on: 20 August, 2012, 08:24:21 pm »
There must be a lot of runners-up fifth and sixth placed riders hoping to get their names in the TdF record books (and that their own doping doesn't come to light).

FTFY!  ;D

Can anyone be arsed to work out who will get the retrospective Yellow Jerseys?

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #291 on: 20 August, 2012, 08:31:53 pm »
I'd agree with Sparks' conclusion on pages 28 and 29.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/103348811/Sparks-Decision

Indeed.  It would appear Judge Sparks is mystified by the behaviour of USADA and their intent on continuing with the case against the wishes of those controlling the sport.  I don't see this as 'sinking Armstrong'.

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #292 on: 20 August, 2012, 09:03:53 pm »
There must be a lot of runners-up fifth and sixth placed riders hoping to get their names in the TdF record books (and that their own doping doesn't come to light).

FTFY!  ;D

Can anyone be arsed to work out who will get the retrospective Yellow Jerseys?


Fifth or sixth??  More like nineteenth or twentieth


Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #293 on: 20 August, 2012, 11:01:33 pm »
Once this affair reaches a conclusion, either the TdF records will have asterisks appended to Armstrong's victories, or the winner's name will be left blank. ASO have done both, but given the difficulty in finding a convincingly clean winner out of the top ten on GC in 1999-2005, I suspect that the latter option may be taken.  :-\

I'd agree with Sparks' conclusion on pages 28 and 29.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/103348811/Sparks-Decision

Indeed.  It would appear Judge Sparks is mystified by the behaviour of USADA and their intent on continuing with the case against the wishes of those controlling the sport.  I don't see this as 'sinking Armstrong'.

I think Sparks is taking the view that the whole affair should have gone to arbitration in the first place, "a plague on both your houses, and I wash my hands of this," as it were.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #294 on: 20 August, 2012, 11:25:47 pm »
According to a report on Velonation, the UCI have backtracked on McQuaid's last comments on the affair, when he was claiming that the UCI had jurisdiction, and that USADA should hand over the case file.

Now, it appears that the UCI have accepted today's federal court ruling that the arbitration panel will be neutral.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12681/US-Postal-case-UCI-says-it-was-never-fighting-to-defend-Lance-Armstrong.aspx

Interesting that it's not McQuaid coming out and saying that arbitration was what they had really wanted all along now. Perhaps even he has realised that after getting slapped down by WADA when he tried to put the hard word on USADA, a welcoming of the federal court verdict from him would be a case of inserting his free foot into his mouth.  :demon:
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #295 on: 23 August, 2012, 11:37:57 pm »
Cycling News has a truckload of bedtime reading - an index of every story relating to Lance Armstrong and doping allegations, staring with the "non-negative" for cortisone test result in the 1999 TdF, right up to the latest comments from Michael Ashenden, saying that it's time Pat McQuaid actually helped USADA's investigation:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/index-of-lance-armstrong-doping-allegations-over-the-years

Given that USADA's deadline (midnight Mountain Daylight Time) for accepting sanctions or arbitration falls at 6 am tomorrow morning in the UK, there should be enough reading material there to pass the time...  ;D
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #296 on: 23 August, 2012, 11:45:14 pm »

I think Sparks is taking the view that the whole affair should have gone to arbitration in the first place, "a plague on both your houses, and I wash my hands of this," as it were.

I think Sparks is wondering why the USADA wants to destroy a US and Texan hero, when he's done so much to inspire a generation to take up cycling, and who US Cycling have named a youth series after.
It's a function of the scab-picking nature of the internet, which hasn't yet acheived the maturity to let bygones be bygones.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #297 on: 24 August, 2012, 12:16:52 am »

I think Sparks is taking the view that the whole affair should have gone to arbitration in the first place, "a plague on both your houses, and I wash my hands of this," as it were.

I think Sparks is wondering why the USADA wants to destroy a US and Texan hero, when he's done so much to inspire a generation to take up cycling, and who US Cycling have named a youth series after.
It's a function of the scab-picking nature of the internet, which hasn't yet acheived the maturity to let bygones be bygones.

Judge Sparks is undoubtedly not as conversant as serious racing fans and those in the sport are with the ins and outs of Armstrong's career, doping in the sport, anti-doping arbitration procedures and the conflict between WADA and the UCI, etc etc.

The link in my previous post shows that questions have been hanging over Armstrong ever since he made his comeback after beating cancer. The implications of a number of the reported allegations concerning Armstrong and doping are that, at best, the UCI has been engaged in a major conflict of interest; at worst, there is corruption in the sport that runs right to the top, and that the current and previous presidents of the UCI have serious questions to answer.

Sometimes a scab has to be picked off, because the wound underneath hasn't been cleaned properly.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #298 on: 24 August, 2012, 12:41:07 am »
Going by comments elsewhere on't webs, Armstrong (or a spokesman) is making a statement at 10pm EST, that's 3am in Blighty.

And that's it from me for tonight - it'll be interesting to see what news the morning will bring...
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #299 on: 24 August, 2012, 01:27:24 am »
Jonathan Vaughter's op ed piece reported elsewhere may have been a template for Lance. It certainly leaves him enough wiggle room to say that he was in essence a 'bionic man', He was rebuilt by Bristol Myers Squibb, he placed himself in their hands, he had no choice, and they had a test-bed in him for innovative medicine. I like a bit of spin more than I like scab-picking.
I probably like Anquetil the best.

Quote
Doping
 
Anquetil took a forthright and controversial stand on the use of performance-enhancing drugs. He never hid that he took drugs and in a debate with a government minister on French television said only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux–Paris on just water.
 
He and other cyclists had to ride through "the cold, through heatwaves, in the rain and in the mountains", and they had the right to treat themselves as they wished, he said in a television interview, before adding:
 



 
"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope."[29]
 

 

There was implied acceptance of doping right to the top of the state: the president, Charles de Gaulle, said of Anquetil:
 



 
"Doping? What doping? Did he or did he not make them play the Marseillaise [the national anthem] abroad?"[30]
 

 

He won Liège–Bastogne–Liège in 1966. An official named Collard told him once he had got changed that there would be a drugs test. "Too late", Anquetil said. "If you can collect it from the soapy water there, go ahead. I'm a human being, not a fountain." Collard said he would return half an hour later; Anquetil said he would already have left for a dinner appointment 140 km away. Two days later the Belgian cycling federation disqualified Anquetil and fined him. Anquetil responded by calling urine tests "a threat to individual liberty" and engaged a lawyer. The case was never heard, the Belgians backed down and Anquetil became the winner.
 
Pierre Chany said:
 

"Jacques had the strength - for which he was always criticised - to say out loud what others would only whisper. So, when I asked him 'What have you taken?' he didn't drop his eyes before replying. He had the strength of conviction."[31]
 
Anquetil argued that professional riders were workers and had the same right to treat their pains as, say, a geography teacher. But the argument found less support as more riders were reported to have died or suffered health problems through drug-related incidents, including the death of the English rider, Tom Simpson, in the Tour de France of 1967.[8]
 
However, there was great support in the cyclist community for Anquetil's argument that, if there were to be rules and tests, the tests should be carried out consistently and with dignity. He said it was professional dignity, the right of a champion not to be ridiculed in front of his public, that led to his refusal to take a test in the centre of the Vigorelli track after breaking the world hour record.
 
The unrecognised time that Anquetil set that day was in any case quickly broken by the Belgian rider, Ferdi Bracke. Anquetil was hurt that the French government had never sent him a telegram of congratulations but sent one to Bracke, who wasn't French. It was a measure of the unacceptability of Anquetil's arguments, as was the way he was quietly dropped from future French teams.
 
[edit] Anecdote
 
Anquetil recounted an incident in a hotel at La Rochelle where he and others were relaxing after a criterium:
 I think it was [Roger] Hassenforder's idea.. We started looking at the fish in a lovely little tank at the entrance to the restaurant. Hassen suddenly said: 'Let's give them something to liven them up a bit!' He got out of his pocket a few Maxitons and gave them to me... I threw them to the fish. And oh yes, amphetamines work just as well on fish, I can tell you. After 10 minutes they were thrashing from one end of the tank to the other."[32]
[edit] Anquetil and Britain
 
Anquetil holds a particular place in the estimation of British fans, who voted him the BBC's international personality of the year in 1964. He appeared with Tom Simpson from a studio in Paris. The Franco-American journalist René de Latour wrote:
 

In the studio we watched the proceedings in London, and while I cannot say Anquetil was keenly interested in the cricketing part, he was impressed with the general presentation which, however (like the stages of the 1964 Tour) he found a bit long. He was interested, though, to see Beryl Burton, and his old acquaintance Reg Harris pulling at his pipe in the invited audience.[33]
 
A few days later, Anquetil was named French sportsman of the year.
 
Anquetil was fascinated by Britain because of the country's enthusiasm for time-trialling and because in 1961 he presented prizes at the Road Time Trials Council evening at the Royal Albert Hall to honour Beryl Burton and Brian Kirby.[8] The pair had won the women's and men's British Best All-Rounder competitions (BBAR) for, respectively, the highest average speed in a season over 25, 50 and 100 miles (women) and 50 and 100 miles (160 km) and 12 hours (men).
 
Alan Gayfer, the editor of Cycling at the time of Anquetil's death, wrote in appreciation:
 

It is strange to look back and see how this frail-looking young man burst on the scene in 1953. We had sent Ken Joy, the former BBAR, to challenge for the Grand Prix des Nations, then 140 kilometres long, and dragging through the hills of the Chevreuse valley. All over Paris they talked about this burly Englishman who had ridden 160km in 4 hours and 6 minutes: and when it came to it, he was hammered by a 19-year-old, but a teenager with a will of iron that was to prove inflexible for the next 19 years.[8]
 
Anquetil was fascinated by the British love of time-trialling and in 1964 discussed riding a British 25 mile (40 km) race. Gayfer and the British professional Tom Simpson explained that the course would be on flat roads and asked Anquetil how long the distance would take him. Anquetil, who had the talent to predict his time-trial times accurately, said 46 minutes. That was eight minutes faster than the distance had ever been ridden, the record standing to Bas Breedon at 54:23. It took until 1993 for the record to fall below Anquetil's estimation.
 
Anquetil asked £1,000 to compete and a London timber merchant called Vic Jenner said he would put up the money. Jenner was an enthusiast who had often put money into the sport. He died shortly afterwards, however, and the ride never happened.[

I ilked Vaughters' piece, and it would be nice to draw a line under the era of doping, but I do like a bit of moral ambiguity. Part of the appeal of that ambiguity is being part of the inner circle,and I can't ever see the appeal of that dying.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/9bVGTVrQd6M&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/9bVGTVrQd6M&rel=1</a>

The fastest time trial performance in open competition I ever witnessed was the 2007 25 mile championship, when I pushed off. Over 30 mph for the first time on a D course. Jason Mac Intyre, the winner, is no longer with us, following a collision with a lorry while out training.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/SnF3OWiZZhw&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/SnF3OWiZZhw&rel=1</a>

The fastest TT I ever saw was Bradley Wiggins on our local club 10 doing a 19.01, also in 2007. He straddles the two traditions.