Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 284292 times)

welshwheels

  • stop eating cheeseburgers big boy!!!!
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #375 on: 25 August, 2012, 10:47:42 am »
Quite bring back the good old days of merckx and anquietil A bit of speed a hip flask full of  whisky MTFU and get on with it !!!! suerly to complete something like the tour de france you must have to bee on something to recover enough to do those stages at those speeds ?
struggling up hills since 1981 !!!

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #376 on: 25 August, 2012, 12:00:14 pm »
In the good old days of Merckx and Anquetil there was fairly widespread use of amphetamines to keep them going (stages were longer) and pretty much everyone was doing it; I'm not sure what the testing regime was like back then.  If there is a sliding scale of doping then whizz is probably at the lower end of the scale, as it's a temporary effect and doesn't change the body composition and simulate extra training, like the more modern drugs (testosterone, HGH, and EPO).

It's odd that caffeine is controlled for most sports but not cycling.  A lot of caffeine is like a mild amphetamine and diuretic rolled into one.  I'm not sure if sodium bicarbonate is controlled; apparently if you take a large dose just before a TT, it helps buffer the lactic acid.  You pay for it later on the toilet, though - if you make it to the toilet on time, that is.

Caffeine (over a certain level) was on the list until a couple of years ago, when cycling followed the Olympics/world bodies in dropping it.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Bye Lance
« Reply #377 on: 25 August, 2012, 12:26:49 pm »
suerly to complete something like the tour de france you must have to bee on something to recover enough to do those stages at those speeds ?

At what speeds? At the speeds Lance, Mig, Bjarne, Jan, Marco etc were winning the TdF then yes, you had to be on something.

At the speed Ryder Hesjedal won the Giro this year? No, apparently you can achieve that by being a naturally phenomenal athlete plus lots of very hard training and dedication (assuming you believe Garmin to be a clean team). If you then apply a scientific approach to coaching and race strategy, you can achieve the kind of speeds at which Wiggo won the TdF this year, which were a lot faster than the opposition but still not nearly as fast as ten years ago (again, assuming Sky are a clean team).

One thing Lance fans can console themselves with is the thought that if the peloton had been clean, he could very probably have won clean. There's no doubt he's a phenomenal athlete even without the drugs. It's a shame - he was in some ways a victim of the era he rode in. But on the other hand, he appears to have been one of the main perpetrators and exploiters of those circumstances, and actively stamped down on anyone who wanted to change the sport for the better, so I have absolutely no sympathy for him at all.

Whatever anyone thinks of the USADA, they are by far the lesser of the two evils in this story.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Bye Lance
« Reply #378 on: 25 August, 2012, 01:20:57 pm »
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #379 on: 25 August, 2012, 01:38:25 pm »
It's very telling that Johann Bruyneel held the record for the fastest TdF massed-start stage for so long.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #380 on: 25 August, 2012, 02:00:26 pm »
One thing Lance fans can console themselves with is the thought that if the peloton had been clean, he could very probably have won clean. There's no doubt he's a phenomenal athlete even without the drugs.

Armstrong was a good 1 day racer and ok at week-long stage races but crap at major tours. EPO changed that.

All pro cyclists are phenomenal athletes, it is part of the job description. I raced (as a reasonable senior) against a current Oz pro (then a junior) when he'd made the National squad, mostly as a road sprinter. I just beat him in a hill TT. Up a hill, turn around, finish at the bottom. I gained all my time on the descent, he climbed faster than me. Even crap-climbing pros climb better than any of us at our very best.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #381 on: 25 August, 2012, 02:12:24 pm »
Nearly all pro cyclists are also crap descenders - they're notorious for holding back.  It may be because received wisdom is that races are only won on the climbs.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #382 on: 25 August, 2012, 02:21:04 pm »
Not in my experience. The few pros I have ridden with have descended at a similar speed to me and I've found few amateurs that descend faster. The fastest climbers do tend to be slower descenders though.

The TT didn't have a technical descent. I suspect that my greater weight and higher top gear made the difference downhill. I always used a 54t big ring.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #383 on: 25 August, 2012, 03:01:06 pm »
It's very telling that Johann Bruyneel held the record for the fastest TdF massed-start stage for so long.

Interesting next move from Johann.  He can't fold like LA, because he has already asked for arbitration.  I think that he will have to take his medicine.  Not a bad thing, I reckon he was a bully as well.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #384 on: 25 August, 2012, 03:52:59 pm »
Methinks it's time to revisit a riff from the TdF thread - C***strong bracelets... ;D :demon:

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=60346.msg1268067#msg1268067
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #385 on: 25 August, 2012, 04:55:31 pm »
There's an interview with Paul Kimmage on velonation.com. Maybe now would be a good time for McQuaid and Verbruggen to drop their legal action against Kimmage.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Bye Lance
« Reply #386 on: 25 August, 2012, 05:12:52 pm »
Armstrong was a good 1 day racer and ok at week-long stage races but crap at major tours.

Ok, you may well know more about that than me. I didn't follow pro cycling so closely in those days so can't claim to be an expert.

Quote
EPO changed that.

That much is apparent!

Quote
All pro cyclists are phenomenal athletes, it is part of the job description.

Of course. But some more so than others - I thought Lance was considered one of the very best, regarded as a likely future GT contender, even as a young pro, pre-cancer. Is that not so?

(Of course, he may already have been on the sauce by then.)

Quote
Even crap-climbing pros climb better than any of us at our very best.

IIRC, only one person on this year's Etape would have finished inside the cutoff time for the equivalent TdF stage. Says it all, really.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #387 on: 25 August, 2012, 05:25:15 pm »
Quite bring back the good old days of merckx and anquietil A bit of speed a hip flask full of  whisky MTFU and get on with it !!!! surely to complete something like the tour de france you must have to be on something to recover enough to do those stages at those speeds ?
Perhaps; Coppi answered this question quite clearly:

   Reluctant but resigned, he insists he will only take drugs when it is absolutely necessary. Questioned when that is, he clarifies: "almost always."
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #388 on: 25 August, 2012, 06:44:25 pm »
So, with many posts appearing to support the actions of USADA and the apparent demise of Lance Armstrong, where do we stand on those associated with him?  Surely LA was not alone and if he is guilty of doping over such a prolonged period, then others must have been involved.  I would find it hard to accept a “I saw him do it but I never got involved” approach.

Interesting to note the LA – Sean Yates link via Team Discovery and the fact that SY is now involved with Sky who are providing some remarkable results.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #389 on: 25 August, 2012, 07:18:19 pm »
The whole sport is rife with it, from the evening "10" upwards.  Nothing would surprise me. However, it's less worthwhile doping domestiques like Yates; you'd be more likely to take the risk (and pay Dr Ferrari's fees) for your potential winners.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #390 on: 25 August, 2012, 07:22:54 pm »
That's at odds with what I (vaguely) remember from Kimmage's book. The 'lesser' riders are struggling to earn a living, which is arguably a better justification for cheating than those cheating to win.

If your results aren't quite good enough to stay in the 'A' squad, your boss says you could be a great pro, and everyone ahead of you is taking them ...

[I'm not sure about your evening 10s allegation either ... :P ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #391 on: 25 August, 2012, 07:38:01 pm »
Watching Eurosport on Friday, is Sean Kelly very uneasy talking about doping  :-\

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #392 on: 25 August, 2012, 07:50:53 pm »
Watching Eurosport on Friday, is Sean Kelly very uneasy talking about doping  :-\

Quelle surprise, he got popped twice - as recounted in Willy Voet's book* he tried to circumvent the dope control at the Paris-Bruxelles race in 1984 by substituting a mechanic's urine for his own. Unfortunately, the mechanic had doped in order to be able to carry on working on the bikes during the night...  ;D

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/may99/may20.shtml

* His name was redacted from the English-language editions of Breaking The Chain.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #393 on: 25 August, 2012, 08:05:26 pm »
Found this interesting potted history of Armstrong and doping this afternoon: http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/30172302298/its-not-about-the-bike

The bit that stands out for me is that Armstrong's cancer would have messed around with his hormone ratios to the point that they should have been easily spotted in a dope test, but as he relates in his autobiography, he didn't go to a doctor until he was coughing up blood from the lung metasases. As alluded to elsewhere, either the stuff he may have been taking at the time was making the levels, or the UCI testers ignored the results. Contrast that with the case of Jake Gibb, a beach volley ball player, who was informed by USADA in 2010 that his hormone levels were abnormal, and that he was going to be suspended. Before hanging up, the tester told Gibb to see a doctor, but didn't say why. Gibb discovered he had testicular cancer, which was successfully treated, and the doping suspension was dropped.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #394 on: 25 August, 2012, 08:33:04 pm »
Watching Eurosport on Friday, is Sean Kelly very uneasy talking about doping  :-\

Yeah, but I'd rather hear someone who's done and won the race commentating than most commentators.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #395 on: 25 August, 2012, 08:34:01 pm »
Nearly all pro cyclists are also crap descenders - they're notorious for holding back.  It may be because received wisdom is that races are only won on the climbs.
Not sure about that, having seen the breakaways reach 90-100km/h in the Pyrenees this year. Phil n Paul mentioned someone recording a speed of over 110km/h a couple of years ago.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #396 on: 25 August, 2012, 08:35:10 pm »
Watching Eurosport on Friday, is Sean Kelly very uneasy talking about doping  :-\

Quelle surprise, he got popped twice - as recounted in Willy Voet's book* he tried to circumvent the dope control at the Paris-Bruxelles race in 1984 by substituting a mechanic's urine for his own. Unfortunately, the mechanic had doped in order to be able to carry on working on the bikes during the night...  ;D

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/may99/may20.shtml

* His name was redacted from the English-language editions of Breaking The Chain.
When even the mechanics have to dope to do their job, perhaps something is wrong with the whole format of the sport - or with what the fans expect?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #397 on: 25 August, 2012, 08:49:04 pm »
Nearly all pro cyclists are also crap descenders - they're notorious for holding back.  It may be because received wisdom is that races are only won on the climbs.
Not sure about that, having seen the breakaways reach 90-100km/h in the Pyrenees this year. Phil n Paul mentioned someone recording a speed of over 110km/h a couple of years ago.
I've been over 90km/h myself, and we don't have mountains in Wiltshire  :smug:
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Bye Lance
« Reply #398 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:12:11 pm »
When even the mechanics have to dope to do their job, perhaps something is wrong with the whole format of the sport - or with what the fans expect?

It's no coincidence that the Giro was made "easier" this year - fewer of the really brutal climbs...

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #399 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:23:14 pm »
Nearly all pro cyclists are also crap descenders - they're notorious for holding back.  It may be because received wisdom is that races are only won on the climbs.
Not sure about that, having seen the breakaways reach 90-100km/h in the Pyrenees this year. Phil n Paul mentioned someone recording a speed of over 110km/h a couple of years ago.

Thor Hushovd was clocked at 69mph (111km/h) descending from the Col d'Aubisque last year. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Hushovd#2011
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche