Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 283794 times)

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #500 on: 01 September, 2012, 11:12:30 am »
I understand your point HJ but this is a forum not a TV screen!

...and currently the "Racing" bit of it is dominated by unsubstantiated gossip on a subject that will be pretty meaningless in the wider scheme of things when there's fun happening elsewhere that can be talked about.

Vuelta - hardly any discussion, despite it being far more interesting this year than most previous editions;
World Ports Classic - newish race that has attracted all the big names among the Big Lads of northern European racing.

Are people who visit "Racing" actually interested in racing, or just in slagging off one L Armstrong (not that he doesn't thoroughly deserve a slagging-off, but not for doping)?
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #501 on: 01 September, 2012, 11:50:57 am »
Again, I understand the point, HJ, but doping is a COLOSSAL subject - in all sports.  It just happens that it's being discussed on this board, so that's where people comment.

I agree the Vuelta is very good, this year!

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #502 on: 01 September, 2012, 12:20:52 pm »
Again, I understand the point, HJ, but doping is a COLOSSAL subject - in all sports.  It just happens that it's being discussed on this board, so that's where people comment.

But 35 pages'-worth of it? About a nasty foreign has-been? Isn't that a tad obsessive when there's only 6 pages on the Vuelta, where a British rider might win (if he's very lucky) and a British rider returning from injury won yesterdays' stage?
The journey is always more important than the destination

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #503 on: 01 September, 2012, 12:38:55 pm »
What is there to say about the Vuelta ?  Yes it's been very good and I'm enjoying watching it.  Now, back to the witch-hunt being waged against Armstrong...
Aero but not dynamic

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #504 on: 01 September, 2012, 01:41:00 pm »
Again, I understand the point, HJ, but doping is a COLOSSAL subject - in all sports.  It just happens that it's being discussed on this board, so that's where people comment.

But 35 pages'-worth of it? About a nasty foreign has-been? Isn't that a tad obsessive when there's only 6 pages on the Vuelta, where a British rider might win (if he's very lucky) and a British rider returning from injury won yesterdays' stage?

I also found it sad that Cummings' win didn't attract even one comment of congratulations on the Vuelta thread (including from me), as we've been so spoiled by Sky and Team GB's  recent successes. I guess people just seem to find innuendo, conspiracies, deceipt and the darker side of human nature far more interesting than the 'good' and wholesome. Funnily enough newspapers seemed to have latched on to this a long time ago.
'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim KrabbĂ©. Possibly

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #505 on: 01 September, 2012, 02:49:19 pm »
I guess people just seem to find innuendo, conspiracies, deceipt and the darker side of human nature far more interesting than the 'good' and wholesome.

Sad, isn't it?
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #506 on: 01 September, 2012, 02:55:18 pm »
I guess people just seem to find innuendo, conspiracies, deceipt and the darker side of human nature far more interesting than the 'good' and wholesome.

Sad, isn't it?

Cycling doesn't feature a lot in the mainstream media when the Tour isn't on. That was largely down to lack of interesting English speaking riders. There was a rise in interest in the 80s with Millar, Lemond, and various Australians, then in the 90s with Boardman, but Lance took it to another level, partly down to the human interest angle. He was a meal ticket for the cycling media, now that Wiggins has won we can discard Lance.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #507 on: 01 September, 2012, 03:00:02 pm »
I guess people just seem to find innuendo, conspiracies, deceipt and the darker side of human nature far more interesting than the 'good' and wholesome.

Sad, isn't it?

Cycling doesn't feature a lot in the mainstream media when the Tour isn't on. That was largely down to lack of interesting English speaking riders. There waas a rise in interest in the 80s with Millar, Lemond, and various Australians, then in the 90s with Boardman, but Lance took it to another level, partly down to the human interest angle. He was a meal ticket for the cycling media, now that Wiggins has won we can discard Lance.

I monitor some of the UK media for cycling coverage.

Often, even when a UK rider has done well, they give greater prominence to cycling doping stories, even when the alleged doper isn't British or isn't well-known. However, they rarely mention the vast amount of doping that goes on in other sports, not to mention the match-fixing, diving, arguing with the ref, drunkenness, sexual misbehaviour and recreational drug-taking that is commonplace in most games.

Why do we want to add to this prejudice against people who ride bikes for a living?
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #508 on: 01 September, 2012, 03:15:23 pm »
Then there's the violence, verbal abuse, pettiness, prima-donna posing and general behaviour in the manner of a big girl's blouse (including among the girls in some sports) that you don't see in cycling.
The journey is always more important than the destination

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #509 on: 01 September, 2012, 03:21:37 pm »
The mass media coverage can be annoying.

But most posters here are actually fans of the sport! (You do start to wonder about a few sometimes, but I'll give them the BoftheD ...) You don't get many posts like:
"More doping offences! Aaargh - sod this, I'm off to watch Champions league ... "

The fans would just prefer a clean sport. this may be impossible, but their intentions are good.

And as long as the doping talk stays (mainly) out of the other racing threads, I'm happy  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #510 on: 01 September, 2012, 03:25:35 pm »
We discuss dopers in cycling because it is a big part of the whole picture. In LA's case, it points out major structural problems with the culture and administration of the sport. Just because other sports don't look at the whole picture isn't a good reason to turn a blind eye to it here.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #511 on: 01 September, 2012, 04:01:19 pm »
All the stuff about LA's dopeage is in this thread.  If you aren't interested, don't read it!


Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #512 on: 01 September, 2012, 05:07:21 pm »
But most posters here are actually fans of the sport! (You do start to wonder about a few sometimes

As do I. I've been following pro cycling since about 1984, so nothing surprises me.

Quote
And as long as the doping talk stays (mainly) out of the other racing threads, I'm happy  :thumbsup:

Perhaps we should have a separate category for doping, as we do for those funny plastic hat things?
The journey is always more important than the destination

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #513 on: 01 September, 2012, 05:13:44 pm »
Quote
And as long as the doping talk stays (mainly) out of the other racing threads, I'm happy  :thumbsup:

Perhaps we should have a separate category for doping, as we do for those funny plastic hat things?
You could probably achieve the same effect by putting LWAB on Ignore.


I'm not suggesting anyone do this!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #514 on: 01 September, 2012, 05:38:43 pm »
Please feel free.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #515 on: 01 September, 2012, 08:25:43 pm »
I understand your point HJ but this is a forum not a TV screen!

...and currently the "Racing" bit of it is dominated by unsubstantiated gossip on a subject that will be pretty meaningless in the wider scheme of things when there's fun happening elsewhere that can be talked about.


I think the "pretty meaningless" is missing the point by miles. The UCI have a lot to answer, and needs "root and branch" surgery to quote another. I think this could be the most important thing in cycling racing since I've been watching it.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #516 on: 01 September, 2012, 11:56:37 pm »
Again, I understand the point, HJ, but doping is a COLOSSAL subject - in all sports.  It just happens that it's being discussed on this board, so that's where people comment.

But 35 pages'-worth of it? About a nasty foreign has-been? Isn't that a tad obsessive when there's only 6 pages on the Vuelta, where a British rider might win (if he's very lucky) and a British rider returning from injury won yesterdays' stage?

Actually "Bye Lance" has 35 pages in a topic that has been running for 6 months.  "Vuelta" has 6 pages on a topic that has been running for 3 weeks, so Vuelta is doing pretty well!

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #517 on: 02 September, 2012, 12:07:04 am »
Oh, and here's an interesting, albeit complex map of influence: http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnectionsV2.pdf

What a tangled web we weave ...

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #518 on: 02 September, 2012, 12:24:04 am »
Again, I understand the point, HJ, but doping is a COLOSSAL subject - in all sports.  It just happens that it's being discussed on this board, so that's where people comment.

But 35 pages'-worth of it? About a nasty foreign has-been? Isn't that a tad obsessive when there's only 6 pages on the Vuelta, where a British rider might win (if he's very lucky) and a British rider returning from injury won yesterdays' stage?

Actually "Bye Lance" has 35 pages in a topic that has been running for 6 months.  "Vuelta" has 6 pages on a topic that has been running for 3 weeks, so Vuelta is doing pretty well!

It's worth re-reading this thread right from the start - in a way, the current fun and games starts on page 3 (February/May 2011), the thread necromancy sparked by the USADA charging letter is on page 12 (June 13, 2012). 24 pages in just under 11 weeks* makes this thread, post-necro, only 9% more active than the La Vuelta thread, so it hardly counts as "obsessive" - not when the equivalent threads elsewhere are already at least 100 pages long.  ;D


* By way of a comparison, this year's TdF thread notched up 75 pages in just 7 weeks - that's nearly 5 times as active as this thread, post-necro.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #519 on: 02 September, 2012, 02:43:21 am »
Oh, and here's an interesting, albeit complex map of influence: http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnectionsV2.pdf

What a tangled web we weave ...

It's interesting to note that Phil Liggett is a regular paid speaker for Livestrong.  That would explain his recent support for Armstrong.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #520 on: 02 September, 2012, 06:47:11 pm »
A little more on the evidence coming out at some point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19433990

Time will tell.  But the USADA 'ruling' has certainly been ignored by all concerned to date.

err....what did I post above ?
Quote
The French Cycling Federation has said it accepts his refusal to fight as an admission of guilt (and aren't interested in trying to reassign results)
http://road.cc/content/news/64891-french-cycling-federation-says-it-views-lance-armstrongs-refusal-fight-charges

All concerned - Armstrong himself, the UCI, the ASO.   They've all ignored the ruling to date.  In effect more of a press release than a ruling.

(only just got back to this after a few days..)
Since the FFC are the body that issues racing licences in France, I would say your 'all concerned' is a rather narrow interpretation. Still, please yerself..
http://users.rcn.com/barbara.dnai/cycl-org.html

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #521 on: 02 September, 2012, 07:11:04 pm »
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Armstrong was found guilty of doping by a properly constituted court of law.  But until that happens - if it happens at all - he remains innocent and the legitimate winner of 7 Tours.  Whatever USADA have to say on the matter is irrelevant unless tested in court.  There's a lot in Liggett's comments that ring true.

The precedent of East Germany is interesting. Admissions of doping haven't erased medal records. I'm quite interested at the moment as to how we became the next new East Germany, Australia having been the last new East Germany. Charlie Walsh and Heiko Salzwedel seem to have been the key figures in carrying the Torch of organised state sport into the new Millennium, in cycling at least.
I read an interesting polemic about the subject in general.
http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/team-gb-are-the-new-east-germany/
Certainly the element of national pride and state prestige is there - but then sport has been used for that since long before East Germany existed, or Germany was even united. Another comparison they fail to make is there too. When the article says
Quote
Every time they pulled away from their West Germany on the track, it was seen as another boost for socialism on the way to the inevitable victory over their decadent capitalist neighbours.
it is only partly right. National sporting rivalries in the Soviet Bloc were mainly aimed at the USSR, not the West. In the same way, Team GB's success is to beat the Australians and rival the USA, not China or Russia.

An obvious difference is that here we are allowed to cast aspersions at our own national teams and even question their existence.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #522 on: 02 September, 2012, 07:54:27 pm »
A little more on the evidence coming out at some point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19433990

Time will tell.  But the USADA 'ruling' has certainly been ignored by all concerned to date.

err....what did I post above ?
Quote
The French Cycling Federation has said it accepts his refusal to fight as an admission of guilt (and aren't interested in trying to reassign results)
http://road.cc/content/news/64891-french-cycling-federation-says-it-views-lance-armstrongs-refusal-fight-charges

All concerned - Armstrong himself, the UCI, the ASO.   They've all ignored the ruling to date.  In effect more of a press release than a ruling.

(only just got back to this after a few days..)
Since the FFC are the body that issues racing licences in France, I would say your 'all concerned' is a rather narrow interpretation. Still, please yerself..
http://users.rcn.com/barbara.dnai/cycl-org.html

But he's not wanting to race in France. 
Aero but not dynamic

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #523 on: 02 September, 2012, 09:58:38 pm »
If this is true, its not getting any better (for Lance anyhoo)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-usada-in-possession-of-positive-armstrong-samples
Working my way up to inferior.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #524 on: 02 September, 2012, 10:02:38 pm »
Fat Pat seems to be preparing the ground for the inevitable...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-says-uci-not-afraid-to-sanction-lance-armstrong