Bye Lance

[citoyen]

Quite a lot of coverage on Five Live this morning.

Judging by the listener comments they read out, there are still plenty of diehard fanboys who refuse to accept simple facts writ large in black and white. Astonishing.

Mind you, most of the comments seemed to be along the "most tested" and "level playing field" kind, so they clearly haven't read the report.

d.

[mr magnolia]

feck me. What a poisonous pile of doodoo.  startling stuff, even after all thats been discussed.
is it survival of a near-death experience that means that all is fair in what you do thereafter? Or was he always a gangster?
or are they all gangsters?
can't wait to see the tennis player, football, waterpolo, athletics etc fallout.

as if....

[Nuncio]

Has Phil “The Voice of Cycling” Liggett made a statement yet?   Is he sticking to his “the fact remains there is no evidence” defence of his friend?

And will there be pressure to get an explanation of why the federal fraud case was dropped?

[Toady]

Is this all a cunning publicity setup for Armstrong's new book?  "You got me guvnor, bang to rights"

[clifftaylor]

I hope that one thing to emerge from all this is the widespread realisation that the UCI is much more an Entertainments Business than an Administrative Body.

What they want: Stages ending in a 1-in-3 goat track

What they don't want: Positive dope tests.

[Toady]

And will there be pressure to get an explanation of why the federal fraud case was dropped?

Yeah, why was it dropped?  What's the lowdown on that?  AIUI there are boxes and boxes of sworn testimony there that USADA couldn't use.

[Justin(e)]

And will there be pressure to get an explanation of why the federal fraud case was dropped?

Yeah, why was it dropped?  What's the lowdown on that?  AIUI there are boxes and boxes of sworn testimony there that USADA couldn't use.

Armstrong has very powerful lobbyists.  It just goes to show the courage of USADA in making this stick - and of those coming forward to break the omerta.

[sg37409]

It just goes to show the courage of USADA in making this stick

Totally agree with the courage and tenacity of USADA.  They must have come under a ton of pressure on this.

[Andrew]

And will there be pressure to get an explanation of why the federal fraud case was dropped?

Yeah, why was it dropped?  What's the lowdown on that?  AIUI there are boxes and boxes of sworn testimony there that USADA couldn't use.

Armstrong has very powerful lobbyists.

He perhaps does. But, in fairness,  I think there was more to it than that. I've no doubt the was a political side to the decision,  but I don't think Armstrong was responsible for having it shut down.

It's not beyond possibility that the Birotte (sp?) genuinely considered that they may not get a conviction (despite the strength of the evidence) and had no desire to tie up court time with legal shenanigans.

Whether the climate will have changed sufficiently now to make a conviction more likely, I don't know but it would not surprise me to see the federal case re-opened.

[David Martin]

So UCI respond by suspending those who came forward. ANd Bruyneel is still involved with team management. There is something wrong here. What I didn't realise until reading the blurb is that one of the reasons Ferrari was so good with EPO was that he worked in the lab of the person in whose lab the EPO test was developed. That wee bit of inside knowledge makes a huge difference (especially when you are on an italian postdoc salary.)

[David Martin]

It's not beyond possibility that the Birotte (sp?) genuinely considered that they may not get a conviction (despite the strength of the evidence) and had no desire to tie up court time with legal shenanigans.

That is a very charitable view. *cough*

[Wascally Weasel]

Is this all a cunning publicity setup for Armstrong's new book?  "You got me guvnor, bang to rights"

"It's all about the Drugs"?

[Andrew]

It's not beyond possibility that the Birotte (sp?) genuinely considered that they may not get a conviction (despite the strength of the evidence) and had no desire to tie up court time with legal shenanigans.

That is a very charitable view. *cough*

  but I didn't say it was MY view! I only acknowledged the possibility

[JT]

So UCI respond by suspending those who came forward. ANd Bruyneel is still involved with team management. There is something wrong here. What I didn't realise until reading the blurb is that one of the reasons Ferrari was so good with EPO was that he worked in the lab of the person in whose lab the EPO test was developed. That wee bit of inside knowledge makes a huge difference (especially when you are on an italian postdoc salary.)

The UCI haven't suspended anyone have they? It's down to the riders' local federation.

And I presume that Bruyneel hasn't been banned/suspended yet because he's going to challenge the decision. I don't believe he will go through with it unless he's going to go down in a blaze of glory, taking as many people with him as possible.

[LEE]

The shit is about to hit the fan... Armstrong/USADA report live report (Guardian link).

Fertiliser is now firmly scattered all over the place.

Bloody Hell!  The UCI must accept responsibility for this.  I have registered my disapproval by donating to the Kimmage fund.

LAnce is a real thug - just finished reading Levi's affidavit.

I'm no lawyer (and I don't now doubt that Lance was doping) but this Affidavit surely isn't worth the paper it's written on as something to convict Armstrong.

"someone told me Lance was doing this" and "someone told me Lance was doing that".

It's a damning indictment of Leipheimer, Landis and some others but it's still nothing but rumour about Lance.

I think we need to see all the other Affidavits and hope that some of them say more than "someone told me...."

Edit: What a sick bunch they all are, it sounds like modern day vampires, sitting in rented French houses, transfusing stored blood in the dark.

[Regulator]

I hope that one thing to emerge from all this is the widespread realisation that the UCI is much more an Entertainments Business than an Administrative Body.

What they want: Stages ending in a 1-in-3 goat track

What they don't want: Positive dope tests.

That's true of most of the sporting governing bodies, from the FIA to the FA...  those who have regulatory function tend to fail to exercise them consistently.

[Regulator]

The shit is about to hit the fan... Armstrong/USADA report live report (Guardian link).

Fertiliser is now firmly scattered all over the place.

Bloody Hell!  The UCI must accept responsibility for this.  I have registered my disapproval by donating to the Kimmage fund.

LAnce is a real thug - just finished reading Levi's affidavit.

I'm no lawyer (and I don't now doubt that Lance was doping) but this Affidavit surely isn't worth the paper it's written on as something to convict Armstrong.

"someone told me Lance was doing this" and "someone told me Lance was doing that".

It's a damning indictment of Leipheimer, Landis and some others but it's still nothing but rumour about Lance.

I think we need to see all the other Affidavits and hope that some of them say more than "someone told me...."

It also contain reference to statements made directly by Armstrong.

And hearsay is not automatically irrelevant or inadmissable (a common misconception).

[LEE]

It also contain reference to statements made directly by Armstrong.

And hearsay is not automatically irrelevant or inadmissable (a common misconception).

Which bits of that text would be admissible as proof that Lance was doping?

Edit. I mean which statements by Lance could be used?  He doesn't seem to state very much.

Yes, there's lots of "by that I took him to mean..." but surely this is where the defence lawyer screams "conjecture m'lud" and the judge starts furiously banging his gavel (based entirely on "Crown Court" from the 1970's)

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I'm no lawyer (and I don't now doubt that Lance was doping) but this Affidavit surely isn't worth the paper it's written on as something to convict Armstrong.

"someone told me Lance was doing this" and "someone told me Lance was doing that".

It's a damning indictment of Leipheimer, Landis and some others but it's still nothing but rumour about Lance.

I think we need to see all the other Affidavits and hope that some of them say more than "someone told me...."

Only if we were talking about a court of law where 'beyond reasonable doubt' might be required, but this isn't. The standard of proof required for a sporting penalty is somewhat lower.

[TimC]

And will there be pressure to get an explanation of why the federal fraud case was dropped?

Yeah, why was it dropped?  What's the lowdown on that?  AIUI there are boxes and boxes of sworn testimony there that USADA couldn't use.

AIUI, the Federal case wasn't about whether LA doped; it was about whether public money (US Postal is a Govt. institution) was used to pay for illegal doping. I recall they decided that they couldn't get enough positive evidence to prove that contention.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

AIUI, the Federal case wasn't about whether LA doped; it was about whether public money (US Postal is a Govt. institution) was used to pay for illegal doping. I recall they decided that they couldn't get enough positive evidence to prove that contention.

Reportedly, that wasn't the reason. More along the lines of 'we were told to drop the prosecution at very short notice'. This was at the behest of a politician who benefited from a donation at almost the same time, the details show up pretty quickly if you search.

[TimC]

I'm no lawyer (and I don't now doubt that Lance was doping) but this Affidavit surely isn't worth the paper it's written on as something to convict Armstrong.

"someone told me Lance was doing this" and "someone told me Lance was doing that".

It's a damning indictment of Leipheimer, Landis and some others but it's still nothing but rumour about Lance.

I think we need to see all the other Affidavits and hope that some of them say more than "someone told me...."

Only if we were talking about a court of law where 'beyond reasonable doubt' might be required, but this isn't. The standard of proof required for a sporting penalty is somewhat lower.

Reading the Times this morning, 'beyond reasonable doubt' is exactly the phrase which USADA use. I am also a little confused by whether this raft of third-party evidence would be sufficient to prove the case to that standard in a court of law, but I have to say there is little sympathy left for LA in any quarter.

[TimC]

AIUI, the Federal case wasn't about whether LA doped; it was about whether public money (US Postal is a Govt. institution) was used to pay for illegal doping. I recall they decided that they couldn't get enough positive evidence to prove that contention.

Reportedly, that wasn't the reason. More along the lines of 'we were told to drop the prosecution at very short notice'. This was at the behest of a politician who benefited from a donation at almost the same time, the details show up pretty quickly if you search.

Ok, I'll do that. I hadn't heard that particular theory. Nevertheless, that investigation was purely about the potential misuse of public money, and was explicitly not about deciding whether LA was guilty of doping.

[LEE]

I'm just a bit disappointed that Leipheimer's testimony is still 100% conjecture and rumour.

I was expecting him to say "Lance was on the next bed to me with tubes pumping him full of a steaming red broth"

I don't need any more "Floyd Landis said Lance is cheating"

[Justin(e)]

I'm just a bit disappointed that Leipheimer's testimony is still 100% conjecture and rumour.

I was expecting him to say "Lance was on the next bed to me with tubes pumping him full of a steaming red broth"

I don't need any more "Floyd Landis said Lance is cheating"

Read the judgment - it is all there.  There is testimony from the likes of Hincapie saying pretty much that Lance had red steaming blood pumped into him.

I was a Lance supporter (I've camped overnight on the side of a road to see him pass), then a doubter, and now I am utterly convinced that he cheated.

It really is in black and white.