Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 283726 times)

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #750 on: 15 October, 2012, 04:58:37 pm »
Here's an interesting piece from JV, written in 1999:

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-comment/jonathan-vaughters-crossing-the-line/

Subtle...  ;)
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

citoyen

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Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #751 on: 15 October, 2012, 05:17:35 pm »
Not very subtle though!

Really good piece. Wonder how it was received at the time.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #752 on: 15 October, 2012, 05:36:46 pm »
Here's an interesting piece from JV, written in 1999:

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-comment/jonathan-vaughters-crossing-the-line/

Subtle...  ;)

I read it at the time, JV's column was one of the main reasons I bought Cycle Sport, and I've followed his career ever since. He once wrote a whole piece about the special shoes he'd had made to save 200 grams, he's been a proponent of marginal gains for a long time.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #753 on: 15 October, 2012, 07:20:07 pm »
Steve Redgrave's a celebrity asthmatic of course. British rowing was reinvigorated by the former East German coach Jürgen Gröbler.

Are you sure, ESL?  I know he is dyslexic and diabetic, as well as incredible.

It's a very comon condition in endurance athletes Wiggo is another.
http://www.londonbridgehospital.com/LBH/industry-news-det/Wiggins-inspires-asthma-sufferers/

Steve Redgrave is diabetic and dyslexic, and he also has ulcerative colitis,  but he's not asthmatic.  It's an urban myth that keeps getting repeated on the internet and a sure sign someone relies on Google without checking their facts.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

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rogerzilla

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Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #755 on: 15 October, 2012, 07:34:27 pm »
Could the real Phil Liggett please stand up? Two slightly contradictory headlines here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/despite-usadas-evidence-liggett-remains-armstrongs-supporter

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13065/Liggett-admits-he-now-finds-it-very-difficult-not-to-believe-Armstrong-took-drugs.aspx

And after earlier accusing USADA of using hearsay he says this -  'I had an email from an eminent scientist from the US yesterday. An SMS actually. It said if Lance Armstrong had taken the drugs outlined by USADA he’d have been dead ten years ago. He’s an eminent scientist and a very intelligent man. I don’t know his name, the SMS came from a secondary person.'

Laughable really.


Seineseeker

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Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #756 on: 15 October, 2012, 07:53:41 pm »
All very sad. I remember the days I used to come on this very forum and be roundly criticised (along with others) for daring to speak up even against Landis and Hamilton even when they tested positive. Lance was untouchable in those days. I'm glad times have changed.

I read that ridiculous Liggett article. Lance was not good for the professional sport of cycling, and yes he was an inspiratoin to many people outside of pro cycling, I think there has been a lost generation of cyclists who have gone as far as they can until they reached the point of to dope or not to dope in their career. And took the choice to walk away.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #757 on: 15 October, 2012, 08:10:32 pm »
Steve Redgrave's a celebrity asthmatic of course. British rowing was reinvigorated by the former East German coach Jürgen Gröbler.

Are you sure, ESL?  I know he is dyslexic and diabetic, as well as incredible.

It's a very comon condition in endurance athletes Wiggo is another.
http://www.londonbridgehospital.com/LBH/industry-news-det/Wiggins-inspires-asthma-sufferers/

Steve Redgrave is diabetic and dyslexic, and he also has ulcerative colitis,  but he's not asthmatic.  It's an urban myth that keeps getting repeated on the internet and a sure sign someone relies on Google without checking their facts.

It looks like you're right there, I've probably connected him with inhalers because he pioneered an inhaler-based diabetes treatment, and he's been featured in articles linking medical exemptions with endurance sports which refer to Paula Radcliffe's asthma.
You don't need to be asthmatic to take a fair amount of salbutomol any more. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-approves-2010-list-of-prohibited-substances It will be interesting to see if that reduces the number of doctor's notes.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #758 on: 15 October, 2012, 08:42:36 pm »
<fnark>

http://www.happyplace.com/18476/bookstore-reclassifies-lance-armstrong-titles-in-light-of-doping-report

I never realised that people dug the uni-ball thing...


...how come I'm not getting any offers?   ???




 ;D
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

fuzzy

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #759 on: 16 October, 2012, 12:02:38 pm »
<fnark>

http://www.happyplace.com/18476/bookstore-reclassifies-lance-armstrong-titles-in-light-of-doping-report

I never realised that people dug the uni-ball thing...


...how come I'm not getting any offers?   ???




 ;D

You need to publicise it more Reg......

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #760 on: 16 October, 2012, 03:12:55 pm »
Steve Redgrave ... has ulcerative coitis,  but he's not asthmatic. 

No what you wrote, but what I read.  Ohh err.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #761 on: 16 October, 2012, 03:36:02 pm »
I've tried having a puff of my inhaler at the bottom of big climbs to see if it would make me epic. Sadly not, although being able to breathe was an advantage over my default wheezing state.

simonp

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #762 on: 16 October, 2012, 04:08:31 pm »
I've been tested for exercise induced asthma. I don't have it. In fact, immediately post intense exercise, my breathing is slightly improved.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #763 on: 16 October, 2012, 04:34:06 pm »
I think a lot of stuff such as inhaler use and breath rite strips is psychosomatic. It all becomes part of a ritual surrounding performance. The funniest outcome from the whole Lance saga would be if someone who thought they doped turned out to have been given a placebo.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #764 on: 16 October, 2012, 05:04:50 pm »
I don't have asthma but I'll come clean - I have experimented with the effects of using an asthma inhaler. Only "out of competition" though. Tbh, I didn't like it - made me feel really weird and light-headed, and made my heart race.

I'm tempted to try a puff or two prior to exercising, just for the sake of experimenting. But I'm not even slightly tempted to try it in any organised event, not even a non-competitive one such as Parkrun. It would feel too wrong. As for EPO, I can't imagine the circumstances in which I'd be tempted to use it. I suppose the pressure on me to perform is slightly different to the pressure on a pro sportsman though.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

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Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #765 on: 16 October, 2012, 05:20:18 pm »
I think a lot of stuff such as inhaler use and breath rite strips is psychosomatic. It all becomes part of a ritual surrounding performance. The funniest outcome from the whole Lance saga would be if someone who thought they doped turned out to have been given a placebo.
I recall that something like that sort-of happened to (I think) Ivan Gotti. A police raid found a bottle with an incriminating label in his hotel room. He came clean and was banned. He revealed that he's got the substance from an unnamed source - he'd rendezvoused at an airport and received the goods in exchange for a suitcase full of euros. When, towards the end of or after his ban, it was analysed, it was found to be saline solution.

Not that he wasn't juiced up - he rode for Gewiss-Ballan, whose team doctor ws Dr Ferrari, and
Quote
On January 14, 1995 Ivan Gotti recorded a level of 40.7% while on August 9, 1995 he recorded 57%.
Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

simonp

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #766 on: 16 October, 2012, 05:27:11 pm »
My HCT is 42.3. So I don't use EPO either, it seems.

eck

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Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #767 on: 16 October, 2012, 05:29:17 pm »
I think a lot of stuff such as inhaler use and breath rite strips is psychosomatic. It all becomes part of a ritual surrounding performance. The funniest outcome from the whole Lance saga would be if someone who thought they doped turned out to have been given a placebo.
  :thumbsup: Genius ESL. Lance's defence in one: "I thought they were giving me placebos."  O:-)
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #768 on: 16 October, 2012, 05:54:22 pm »
I think a lot of stuff such as inhaler use and breath rite strips is psychosomatic. It all becomes part of a ritual surrounding performance.

For athletes with fully functioning bronchial systems, maybe... but for anyone whose bronchae tighten up for whatever reason, the effect of having a toot on a Salbutamol inhaler is definitely physical - any psychological effects are merely side effects of being able to breathe properly again.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Rhys W

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Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #769 on: 16 October, 2012, 06:16:34 pm »
The funniest outcome from the whole Lance saga would be if someone who thought they doped turned out to have been given a placebo.

The tale has been repeated many times when Lance sent a couple of domestiques back to the car to get him (presumably amongst other things) a cortisone pill. There were none in the car, so Bruyneel ground down an aspirin, wrapped it in foil and passed it on.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #770 on: 16 October, 2012, 06:23:58 pm »
I think a lot of stuff such as inhaler use and breath rite strips is psychosomatic. It all becomes part of a ritual surrounding performance.

For athletes with fully functioning bronchial systems, maybe... but for anyone whose bronchae tighten up for whatever reason, the effect of having a toot on a Salbutamol inhaler is definitely physical - any psychological effects are merely side effects of being able to breathe properly again.

A small scale study in 2004 indicated a 1% to 2% gain from Salbutamol use in healthy athletes.
https://www.thieme-connect.de/DOI/DOI?10.1055/s-2004-815716
Use of inhalers became widespread after that, the current WADA guidelines allow use up to a threshold without a doctor's note. So we've got a level playing field if there is an advantage from Salbutamol, which WADA doesn't think there is.
There was a lot of speculation about what Armstrong's medical exemptions were. But as we now have the testimony of his team that they all doped, it's not an issue.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #771 on: 17 October, 2012, 12:48:25 am »
In comparison with the scale of performance gain available courtesy of EPO or blood bags, I can't help thinking that 1-2% is neither here nor there. Mind you, if usage up to a certain threshold doesn't require a TUE, that's an invitation to healthy athletes to take the piss. Personally, I'd prefer to see any use of salbutamol by an athlete require a TUE if they're competing in an event under WADA rules. And I'm not too sure about supermarket pharmacies selling inhalers either, even though it could be handy if you mis-timed dealing with the repeat prescription and you ran out before you the new scrip back from your GP...

Regarding Armstrong and medical exemptions, Armstrong himself denied having any TUEs at the press conference in Tarbes during the 1999 TdF, round about the time that a French paper had got a tip that he had returned a positive for steroids.

Quote
When the team discovered that the newspaper had received the tip, panic hit Armstrong and his inner-circle, according to Emma O'Reilly, a soigneur from Ireland who worked with the team and specifically with Armstrong. She was in the hotel room after the 15th Tour stage when, she says, Armstrong and team officials devised a plan.

"They agreed to backdate a medical prescription," O'Reilly tells SI. "They'd gotten a heads up that [Armstrong's] steroid count was high and decided they would actually do a backdated prescription and pretend it was something for saddle sores."

In violation of its own protocol requiring a TUE for use of such a drug, officials from the UCI announced that Armstrong had used a corticosteroid for his skin and his positive result was excused.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/23/lance.armstrong/index.html#ixzz29TP3Vy9t

Speaking of which, never mind the alleged personal donation from Lance to the UCI "for a Sysmex machine"/to cover up the 2001 Tour de Suisse positive (depending on one's POV), the latest juicy allegation is that Nike paid the UCI $500,000 to cover up the cortisone positive:

Quote
The NY Daily News reports that Kathy LeMond testified under oath during a 2006 deposition in the SCA arbitration case that Julian Devries, a mechanic for Armstrong’s team, had told her and others that Nike and Thom Weisel –the San Francisco banker who sponsored and part-owned Armstrong’s team - had transferred $500,000 to a Swiss bank account that belonged to Verbruggen.

The money was apparently sent to cover up a 1999 positive drug test for corticosteroids, which Armstrong had used to treat saddle sores.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-did-nike-pay-dollar-500000-to-verbruggen-to-cover-up-armstrong-positive

Interestingly, check this report from 2005:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/09/news/former-german-cycling-president-blasts-ucis-handling-of-armstrong-case_8889

Quote
“There is obviously a strong relationship with Armstrong,” Schenk added. “The UCI took a lot of money from Armstrong – to my knowledge 500,000 dollars – and now there is speculation that there are financial connections to Armstrong, as well as the American market. I do not know what sort of connections Verbruggen has.”
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #772 on: 17 October, 2012, 12:59:45 am »
An interesting interview with Taylor Phinney over on Velonation, which can be summarised as - never mind EPO and blood bags, stop popping the painkillers and caffeine pills, guys!

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13076/Taylor-Phinney-Interview-Getting-the-pill-culture-out-of-the-sport.aspx
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #773 on: 17 October, 2012, 01:04:21 am »
And Laura Weislo takes issue with Tim Herman's comments about "fairness" and "fair-minded Americans" in a stinging piece on Cycling News:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/the-lance-armstrong-fairness-fallacy

It's fair to say she's pretty pissed-off...
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #774 on: 17 October, 2012, 09:23:01 am »
That's Kathy LeMond, Greg's wife, I presume - so is he (Greg) enmeshed in this too? Presumably so.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.