Is it just me or does anyone else here think wearing all black cycling gear on a gloomy winter's day is plain daft or what?
Is it just me or does anyone else here think wearing all black cycling gear on a gloomy winter's day is plain daft or what?
Rubbish. Pay more attention.
If the viz is awful they should run lights. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR THEM TO DRESS UP LIKE A BLOODY BOLLARD. I will get off this high horse when cars come in fluo yellow as standard. >:(
I wear black but often wear my grey night vision jacket, I never have a problem being seen.
I wear black but often wear my grey night vision jacket, I never have a problem being seen.
:o :o OMG grey is even WORSE! You're going to DIE! :o :o
::-)
Is it just me or does anyone else here think wearing all black cycling gear on a gloomy winter's day is plain daft or what? Whilst riding my motorbike (wearing my bright highways style flourescent jacket I might add!) I passed two racing type guys riding down the busy narrow A417 near East Hendred this afternoon, quite poor visibility and they hardly stood out at all, bloomin' dangerous in my opinion.
If their windows are misted up then they shouldn't be driving.
Did you hit them ? No ? Then they were visible enough.
Rubbish. Pay more attention.
By all means shout at them. Roadies should know better. Black just isn't fashionable any more; they need to be wearing white!If their windows are misted up then they shouldn't be driving.
*Paternal mode* You can tell them that when they come to visit you in hospital.
So tell me, how will wearing HiVi work if they can't see out of their windscreen? Or is it more of that majic stuff that means no matter how much the driver doesn't look, and is unable to see even if they did look, they will somehow see you because you are wearing a dash of fluro yellow?
Oh dear, here is a rare moment. I find myself disagreeing with those whose opinions I generally hold in high regard.QuoteRubbish. Pay more attention.
It would be great, wouldn't it? But it doesn't happen does it? You can't just say to a general population - "You should be like this" because it just won't work.
For me, I've got to ram my presence right into the dullards faces, and rub it in their gobs with a soggy high viz gilet. I want them to be in no doubt whatsoever that I'm there - even when their driving, and their surroundings is well down their list of priorities.
I know what the world should be like, but we don't live in that world do we, so until we do - I'm happy to be a Bollard :thumbsup:.
When I am in the car I am grateful for anything that helps me drive safely, and that includes efforts by other road users to be seen.
So tell me, how will wearing HiVi work if they can't see out of their windscreen? Or is it more of that majic stuff that means no matter how much the driver doesn't look, and is unable to see even if they did look, they will somehow see you because you are wearing a dash of fluro yellow?
I think that is an extreme example. During 12,000km of cycling last year, I saw very few instances of fuckwads driving pillboxes - probably well less than 0.1% of vehicles encountered.
If looking like a bollard gets me seen by most of the motorists, most of the time, then that's the best I can do isn't it?
Have you tried rding without HiVi?
I may be missing something but haven't we all agreed that stealth cyclists are not good? What makes this any different?
Visible or not - If someone becomes visible as they come in contact with your bonnet, that's not much help.
JrC - Presumably they can something, it's more a case of reduced visibility.
BTW. I find that dressing like a zebra is a good way to get noticed!
I wear hi vis, but only when I'm commuting in winter. This is not because I think it's any more likely that motons who are fiddling with their ipod/mentally preparing a shopping list/arguing with their spouse are going to see me, but so that if they do run into me they are slightly more likely to get twatted with a big stick when they get to court. (Lives in hope anyway).
A Stealth Cyclist is NOT defined by their clothing.
When I am in the car I am grateful for anything that helps me drive safely, and that includes efforts by other road users to be seen.
Would that be because you do not need to pay as much attention to what you are doing?
When I am in the car I am grateful for anything that helps me drive safely, and that includes efforts by other road users to be seen.
Would that be because you do not need to pay as much attention to what you are doing?
Peering intently through my windscreen doesn't seem to make the invisible visible
When I am in the car I am grateful for anything that helps me drive safely, and that includes efforts by other road users to be seen.
Would that be because you do not need to pay as much attention to what you are doing?
Peering intently through my windscreen doesn't seem to make the invisible visible
A Stealth Cyclist is NOT defined by their clothing.
It's very hard to disagree with you about the meaning of a made up phrase!
Do we agree that camouflage on a bike is a bad idea?
When I am in the car I am grateful for anything that helps me drive safely, and that includes efforts by other road users to be seen.
Would that be because you do not need to pay as much attention to what you are doing?
Peering intently through my windscreen doesn't seem to make the invisible visible
I have yet to see an invisible cyclist or, for that matter, anything at the roadside which is invisible.
...Both Nutty and I often write about our findings regarding space and SMIDSYs when we stopped wearing HiVi.
...
When I am in the car I am grateful for anything that helps me drive safely, and that includes efforts by other road users to be seen.
Would that be because you do not need to pay as much attention to what you are doing?
Peering intently through my windscreen doesn't seem to make the invisible visible
I have yet to see an invisible cyclist or, for that matter, anything at the roadside which is invisible.
I have seen some idiots in dark clothes on moonless rainy nights with no lights that do a fair impression of being invisible.
In summer it bucketed down with rain on my commute back home, my summer shower jacket is black, on that 7 mile journey as was nearly wiped out three times as cars came so close to me, it was daylight but I had my rear LED on due to the rain, this prompted me to buy a hi vis for winter. I now find I get a little more respect but in-keeping with certain research on the whole cars are closer to me than before, I read an article by I think Dr Ian Walker and something that came out was the more proficient you look on the bike the less room a driver will give.
a light is the best visibility aid going when the light fails.
I cannot believe intelligent people think riding in black in the winter gloom is fine, maybe you all live in central London but out in the sticks you just blend into the hedgerow on a dull day. You don't need Hi-vis just a brighter colour. Motorist around here are great normally giving you a wide birth but I don't want to be involved in a genuine " I am sorry I didn't see you" incident. Why take the risk.
They are visible. If they weren't you could see the road through them.
You do not have a right to expect everyone else to make themselves visible beyond what is required by law. You do have a duty to conduct yourself such that you do not pose a danger to others, seen or unseen.
a light is the best visibility aid going when the light fails.
Wow, I always thought that a light was the best visibility aid when it hadn't failed. Could I just spray paint a toilet roll and pretend it's a light, or can car drivers tell the difference?!?
It's worth noting that I never wear hi-vis, but wearing clothing that blends in with the background is something I don't do (I have yet to go on safari in zebra mode).
I have yet to see an invisible cyclist or, for that matter, anything at the roadside which is invisible.
I have yet to see an invisible cyclist or, for that matter, anything at the roadside which is invisible.
If there was an award for Stupid Post of the Year, that would win it! ;D ;D ;D
Nobody has ever seen anything which is invisible ::-)
You are right! Tis I who is the fool . Doh! :-[
There is no need to be facetious, it should be clear considering out topic of discussion that "a light [of the kind one attaches to a bicycle] is the best visibility aid going when the light [provided by the sun] fails [i.e. diminishes, becomes less, fades, the eyes recieve the world in a grey patina etc]
Oh not again :-[
I tend to wear dark cycling gear but always have a bright flashing LED rear light & reflective sam brown belt in the dark. I've generally tended to think this is sufficient as cars normally give me a wide bearth when passing from behind but a couple of weeks ago a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.
This unnerved me quite a bit. Although all the evidence is that most car drivers have no problem seeing me it only needs one who doesn't ... And it's not much consolation knowing it was the driver's fault when you're in A&E (or worse). So I must say it's made me wonder whether I shouldn't go for more hi-viz stuff.
a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.
a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.
Sounds to me like it could've been Pumpe. :-* ;)
I cannot believe intelligent people think riding in black in the winter gloom is fine, maybe you all live in central London but out in the sticks you just blend into the hedgerow on a dull day. You don't need Hi-vis just a brighter colour. Motorist around here are great normally giving you a wide birth but I don't want to be involved in a genuine " I am sorry I didn't see you" incident. Why take the risk.
a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.
Sounds to me like it could've been Pumpe. :-* ;)
He was probably still on the naughty step though.
I tend to wear dark cycling gear but always have a bright flashing LED rear light & reflective sam brown belt in the dark. I've generally tended to think this is sufficient as cars normally give me a wide bearth when passing from behind but a couple of weeks ago a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.
This unnerved me quite a bit. Although all the evidence is that most car drivers have no problem seeing me it only needs one who doesn't ... And it's not much consolation knowing it was the driver's fault when you're in A&E (or worse). So I must say it's made me wonder whether I shouldn't go for more hi-viz stuff.
He was a muppet.
I cannot believe intelligent people think riding in black in the winter gloom is fine,
The situation a drivers brain faces is thus: There is too much information being recieved, and changing too rapidly to analyse 100% of it.
The situation a drivers brain faces is thus: There is too much information being recieved, and changing too rapidly to analyse 100% of it.
So true and you can easy add Denmark, Sweden and Norway to that list. You got it bang on there Gordy.I cannot believe intelligent people think riding in black in the winter gloom is fine,
Hmm. There's a bit of UK culture in this thread. In those countries where cycling is an everyday activity (i.e. Holland, Vietnam) the wearing of hi-viz and helmets is virtually zero.
We're paranoid and succumb to the "cycling is dangerous" mantra too easily. We should all be cycling in everyday clothes, not safety gear.
Good road positioning is definitely the best visibility aid, in my experience.Yup the 3 C's, remember them boys and girls ... 'to see;, 'to be seen' and communicate. If you are in a position where you can see and can be seen and above all tell other road users where you are going, is probably the best road safety advice I can give to any cyclist.
The situation a drivers brain faces is thus: There is too much information being recieved, and changing too rapidly to analyse 100% of it.
Bloody hell, it reads like some sort of dissertation, The thread is "Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?" seems simple enough to me.
What most people are doing is a mental risk assessment, which is essentially probability and outcome. Most riders would consider being hit by a car serious but it seems a lot think wearing black in winter in low light conditions, doesn't make this any less likely, common sense would say otherwise despite all the fancy pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo.
Some things are counter-intuitive, like removing street furniture and road markings making some roads safer. How much evidence is needed before "mumbo-jumbo" becomes fact?
I was on my motorbike and am pretty keyed to my surroundings and whats going on ahead, imagine the driver of a car with misted up windows etc. These cyclists were not visible enough IMO!
Some things are counter-intuitive, like removing street furniture and road markings making some roads safer. How much evidence is needed before "mumbo-jumbo" becomes fact?
Removing street furniture is not counter intuitive, there is a logic to it. Cycling in black on a gloomy winters day doesn't.
Some things are counter-intuitive, like removing street furniture and road markings making some roads safer. How much evidence is needed before "mumbo-jumbo" becomes fact?
Removing street furniture is not counter intuitive, there is a logic to it. Cycling in black on a gloomy winters day doesn't.
We've been here before (how many times?).
I think I suggested this before as stuff to be seen in, so I'll suggest it again.
Removing street furniture is not counter intuitive, there is a logic to it. Cycling in black on a gloomy winters day doesn't
In your opinion.
My suspicion is is that flourescent yellow is more visible more often than some people want to admit to themselves - because they (rightly) feel that they should not have to wear it.
To my eyes, it stands out well more often than not in urban and country situations.
Removing street furniture is not counter intuitive, there is a logic to it. Cycling in black on a gloomy winters day doesn't
In your opinion.
No, it is logical that wearing black on a dull winters day will make you less visible.
Is it just me or does anyone else here think wearing all black cycling gear on a gloomy winter's day is plain daft or what?
Rubbish. Pay more attention.
If the viz is awful they should run lights. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR THEM TO DRESS UP LIKE A BLOODY BOLLARD. I will get off this high horse when cars come in fluo yellow as standard. >:(
BTW. I find that dressing like a zebra is a good way to get noticed!
Both Nutty and I often write about our findings regarding space and SMIDSYs when we stopped wearing HiVi.
I used to wear hi-viz all the time.
Now my jacket is black, my longs are black and my hi-viz waistcoat stays tucked away, ready for occasions when I think it will make a difference (low sun & long shadows). I put the smart lights on in any other conditions. I know that lil half watt LED, usually two of them on fresh batteries, makes more difference then all the hi-viz I could possibly adorn myself or my machine with.
It makes no noticable difference.
Most the danger seems to come from drivers who have seen me but still make stupid judgement calls. The ones that that think they stil have time to pull out before you yet get there/finish overtaking before the oncoming bus reaches us/just squeeze through that gap.
The last time we had this argument (probably at the other place), didn't someone post something about the BT Vans when they switched the colour from Yellow to grey?
I have seen some idiots in dark clothes on moonless rainy nights with no lights that do a fair impression of being invisible.
My suspicion is is that flourescent yellow is more visible more often than some people want to admit to themselves - because they (rightly) feel that they should not have to wear it.
To my eyes, it stands out well more often than not in urban and country situations.
I think you may be right about the passionate feelings of people, resisting being forced to wear clothing that carries no proven safety record for cyclists. Sounds kinda familiar to another thorny issue.
I don't wear HiVi because whilst I recognise that in certain situations, fluro-yellow is very eye-catching, the kind of driver who will notice the eye-catching yellow will notice me in black and red/white too - as by definition, if they are operating at a stress level which is allowing them to recognise the colour of my clothing, they are of very very minor threat to me, as they are operating their vehicle at a speed that their brain can cope with.
Would you like to explain why removing street furnature and centre markings aids road safety and reduces average speeds?
You can refer to my 'mumbo-jumbo' as much as you like for the answer.
No, it is logical that wearing black on a dull winters day will make you less visible.
No, it is logical that wearing black on a dull winters day will make you less visible.
But it's not logical and it only seems like common sense to you. To lots of us, it's not very much like sense at all. If it's daylight, then you're perfectly visible regardless. If it's dark enough that lights are sensible, then it still doesn't matter what you wear, you'll be more than visible enough.
No, it is logical that wearing black on a dull winters day will make you less visible.
But it's not logical and it only seems like common sense to you. To lots of us, it's not very much like sense at all. If it's daylight, then you're perfectly visible regardless. If it's dark enough that lights are sensible, then it still doesn't matter what you wear, you'll be more than visible enough.
I said you will be less visible, that is a fact not my opinion.
I don't wear HiVi because whilst I recognise that in certain situations, fluro-yellow is very eye-catching, the kind of driver who will notice the eye-catching yellow will notice me in black and red/white too - as by definition, if they are operating at a stress level which is allowing them to recognise the colour of my clothing, they are of very very minor threat to me, as they are operating their vehicle at a speed that their brain can cope with.
So there are only two categories of drivers: those who notice everything and those who notice nothing? Doesn't make sense to me. It's the inbetweenies that you have to worry about.
[edit: "see" changed to "notice"]
I passed two racing type guys riding down the busy narrow A417 near East Hendred this afternoon, quite poor visibility and they hardly stood out at all, bloomin' dangerous in my opinion.
I said you will be less visible, that is a fact not my opinion.
I said you will be less visible, that is a fact not my opinion.
Less visible than what? Yellow, grey, blue? You said this isn't about hi vis, so how can you begin to compare visibility of black to other colours without extensive research? For example, black probably stands out better than grey, but I may be wrong.
So may you, so it's not "fact".
In ordinary daylight conditions, cloudy or sunny, black is perfectly visible, partly because (as pointed out) it doesn't exist in nature. Shadows aren't black.
We are talking about a cyclist in gloomy conditions in winter, which seems to be a lot of the time.
As the OP I seem to opened a right tin of worms here ::-)
A bit more info: The cyclists were coming towards me, the time was 12.30pm, narrow 'A' road, rural location with fast traffic (60mph limit), quite murky with lowish light levels, the cyclists did not have lights on (I checked my mirror when passing them).
Flourescent/bright clothing does get you noticed in such conditions - my highways jacket is bright orange and positively glows at this time of year. As a motorbiker I want to do as much as I possibly can to avoid the misdeeds of our 4-wheeled friends just as much as when I'm riding my bicycle. By misdeeds I mean cars coming towards me and overtaking other cars without seeing me first, this is just the situation those cyclists were placing themselves in. Ok not normally a huge problem on wider roads but as I said this was a narrow road. These cyclists were not helping themselves here. Cyclists are bigger than the machines they ride - wearing bright gear makes you stand out - that has to be a good thing surely?
Yesterday I was riding my MZ ETZ250 (filthy polluting 21 year old East German commie 2-stroke!), I've also got a Suzuki 1200 S Bandit :)
A few years ago I came the closest to death on the road ever. Some knob pulled out of a side road and the only thing that alerted him to my presence was my scream of "Shiiiiiiit!" His window was open.
I was wearing the most hideous, yellowest jacket ever made..... it was in daylight and not gloomy though....
My question to Pneumant is this; why do you think you noticed the cyclists in black? Was it because they were dressed in black?
H
My point is that I would have noticed them at a greater distance if they had stood out more.
Sometimes we only see what 'we want to see' and nothing else.Totally agree there Annie.
...Colour of jacket isn't relevant.
oh, I sooooo didn't want to post on this topic.
but
as a construction industry worker I am required to wear high-viz at work. And that is because it makes me more visible. and I know that because I get told so. And I know that because I've sat in the cab of some socking great machines working over large areas and the people that you see are the ones wearing hi-viz. Try imagining the guys working on the motorways without high-viz.
As a car driver then I firmly believe that I can see cyclists in the daytime in anything other than bright sunlight a whole lot sooner when they wear high-viz - particularly out in the country when you may spot them way before you close on them and so are 'prepared' for their presence in front of you.
I've watched the ninja roadies cycling past my front door in the winters gloom, and I've watched the high-viz guys go by too. It's ludicrous to suggest that on a gloomy winter's day you can be seen as easily in ninja black as in high-viz.
Incidently though, on the occasion of my 'big' off in 2005 I was cycling east out of the setting sun and had my high-viz vest in my pocket for wearing later as I returned through the gloaming. None ever asked me if I was wearing high-vis at the time (insurance/police/family/friends)
Everyone asked my why I wasn't wearing a *******.......
One tip is to 'break out of the background' by zig-zagging ever so slightly as you ride past a junction, drivers do notice this from my experience and look at you like your a 'maddun!
Yup the 3 C's, remember them boys and girls ... 'to see;, 'to be seen' and communicate. If you are in a position where you can see and can be seen and above all tell other road users where you are going, is probably the best road safety advice I can give to any cyclist.
One tip is to 'break out of the background' by zig-zagging ever so slightly as you ride past a junction, drivers do notice this from my experience and look at you like your a 'maddun!
You're 'avin a giraffe, aren't you?
As Woolly has already said upthread...Yup the 3 C's, remember them boys and girls ... 'to see;, 'to be seen' and communicate. If you are in a position where you can see and can be seen and above all tell other road users where you are going, is probably the best road safety advice I can give to any cyclist.
What you want to be is predictable. Other road users need to know where you're going. Zigzagging about is just stupid, sorry.
You're 'avin a giraffe, aren't you?
People working on the side of a motorway do not behave in the same way as a cyclist though so it is wrong to make such a comparison.
Bike or motorbike, when you pass a junction, you should have been thinking well ahead already. You'll know what's behind you and what's waiting or rolling up to the junction.
If I'm in any doubt whatsoever (and this is most of the time) then I'll be riding wide and taking as much of the lane as I need to make myself visible and to have a sporting chance of getting out of the way if the vehicle doesn't see me and pulls out.
A proficient road user is always smooth. I want other road users to be seeing my gradual, but positive position change and to respect my place on the road.
Fluorescent yellow-orange and plain yellow materials are detected faster and further away than other colours, depending on the weather. On clear sunny days white is useful. On overcast days, fluorescent red-yellow is better. Black has no effect on motorcycle visibility.
People working on the side of a motorway do not behave in the same way as a cyclist though so it is wrong to make such a comparison.
Annie - I would counter that by saying that hi-viz allows the eye to catch the colour and the fact that there is a 'something' there way before the mind can work out what it is that is seen or what they are doing, so I don't think that behaviour has a jot to do with the initial visibility.
One tip is to 'break out of the background' by zig-zagging ever so slightly as you ride past a junction, drivers do notice this from my experience and look at you like your a 'maddun!
You're 'avin a giraffe, aren't you?
As Woolly has already said upthread...Yup the 3 C's, remember them boys and girls ... 'to see;, 'to be seen' and communicate. If you are in a position where you can see and can be seen and above all tell other road users where you are going, is probably the best road safety advice I can give to any cyclist.
What you want to be is predictable. Other road users need to know where you're going. Zigzagging about is just stupid, sorry.
Why is it only ever cyclists, motorcyclists, horseriders, roadworkers who have to be inconvenienced/made to dress up?
So, all cars should have fluoro striping on the bonnet? Especially the grey ones.
Why is it only ever cyclists, motorcyclists, horseriders, roadworkers who have to be inconvenienced/made to dress up?
People working on the side of a motorway do not behave in the same way as a cyclist though so it is wrong to make such a comparison.
Annie - I would counter that by saying that hi-viz allows the eye to catch the colour and the fact that there is a 'something' there way before the mind can work out what it is that is seen or what they are doing, so I don't think that behaviour has a jot to do with the initial visibility.
In general though we are warned about people working on the road before we come upon them, through the use of signs, lights, huge vehicles with flashing lights etc.
Fluorescent yellow-orange and plain yellow materials are detected faster and further away than other colours, depending on the weather. On clear sunny days white is useful. On overcast days, fluorescent red-yellow is better. Black has no effect on motorcycle visibility.
So, all cars should have fluoro striping on the bonnet? Especially the grey ones.
Why is it only ever cyclists, motorcyclists, horseriders, roadworkers who have to be inconvenienced/made to dress up?
I suspect that the colour of your clothing is not critical.
A driver sees you or he doesn't.
Your safety is reliant on his powers of observation.
You have no control,& very little influence, over his driving skills.
I sometimes wear hi-viz or flouro clothes primarily for the "comfort" of knowing that I can do no more for my own well being.
Later I painted it baby pink with large lime green circles all over it. Never had the same problem again. (Never lost it in the car park either)
Why is it only ever cyclists, motorcyclists, horseriders, roadworkers who have to be inconvenienced/made to dress up?
Because they are the vulnerable ones. Why is it such a big deal?
Whatever your opinions re the relative merits of high viz or not ,be under no illusions about the fact that wearing dark colours can effect monies paid out by insurers.I am not saying this is right or wrong only that when I made a claim last year, I was frequently asked about my visibility and colour of my clothing, and told it was considered very relevant.Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier up thread but I didnt have time to read the whole thing.
On the basis of the above post, does anyone know if motor insurers vary their premium / payout in accordance with vehicle colour?
EDIT: Seemingly not with premiums, according to roundabout the fourth paragraph of this (http://www.directline.com/motor/car-colour.htm)
Why is it only ever cyclists, motorcyclists, horseriders, roadworkers who have to be inconvenienced/made to dress up?
Because they are the vulnerable ones. Why is it such a big deal?
Because no-one ever seems to suggest it for cars. It's always everyone else's problem.
As has been pointed out in this thread, car:car SMIDSYs also happen, so where's the "campaign" to have hi-viz on the front of cars?
Well done that cyclist. :thumbsup:Whatever your opinions re the relative merits of high viz or not ,be under no illusions about the fact that wearing dark colours can effect monies paid out by insurers.I am not saying this is right or wrong only that when I made a claim last year, I was frequently asked about my visibility and colour of my clothing, and told it was considered very relevant.Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier up thread but I didnt have time to read the whole thing.
... and this is exactly why we have to fight this now, before it becomes the "norm" that we have to garb ourselves up before we can go out. As has been said upstream , in countries where cycling is the norm (Holland/Germany/etc) normal cycling attire is your work clothing/casual clothing, not hi-viz.
I had an off a little while ago, and the insurer's medical report included the line "he was not wearing a helmet". I queried the relevance of this and how a helmet would have prevented my hand/back injuries, and whether by including this line they'd be putting me at risk of reduced payout. They agreed and a revised medical report without that comment was issued.
I suspect most of the advantage motorcyclists gain from hi-viz is due to motorists thinking they may be police.
Bike or motorbike, when you pass a junction, you should have been thinking well ahead already. You'll know what's behind you and what's waiting or rolling up to the junction.
If I'm in any doubt whatsoever (and this is most of the time) then I'll be riding wide and taking as much of the lane as I need to make myself visible and to have a sporting chance of getting out of the way if the vehicle doesn't see me and pulls out.
A proficient road user is always smooth. I want other road users to be seeing my gradual, but positive position change and to respect my place on the road.
The weave is to attract the drivers attention, you don't have to do it everytime, something to keep in the 'armoury' so to speak, drivers tend to look left first and then right at junctions, they are in effect looking at you as a secondary action and may have sub-conciously decided to proceed anyway.
The deliberate wobble technique works wonders in some situations. I never really thought about it from the visibility aspect,
White was the most prevalent colour in both cases and controls. White, black, grey, red, and silver colour groups were relatively homogeneous with respect to shades included in each group. There was no consistent pattern in distribution of car colour by age of vehicle.
Actually dark vehicles blending in with the road doesn't fit with the research!
White vehicles are the ones at greatest involvement in accidents!QuoteWhite was the most prevalent colour in both cases and controls. White, black, grey, red, and silver colour groups were relatively homogeneous with respect to shades included in each group. There was no consistent pattern in distribution of car colour by age of vehicle.
BMJ (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7429/1455)
Yet other research shows that white cars are more easily seen!
Further contradiction occurs where silver cars (less visible) are in fact the safest colour and in a new zealand study red and yellow cars register higher in injury accidents!
Now all of this could be because White Van man is included and numpties tend to buy yellow cars!
I suspect most of the advantage motorcyclists gain from hi-viz is due to motorists thinking they may be police.Twice in the last few weeks, I've overheard passers-by stating "He must be a policeman" or similar; I was fully equipped with FRICKING LASERS(TM), with black leggings, yellow Goretex coat, and bike laden with matching black and yellow panniers.
FWIW I do not agree with the 'wear black / ride in the middle of the road' stance either; many drivers are dangerous b'stards who don't even think we should be on the road, even if they do notice us.
FWIW I do not agree with the 'wear black / ride in the middle of the road' stance either; many drivers are dangerous b'stards who don't even think we should be on the road, even if they do notice us.
??? I don't get how that has anything at all to do with black clothing.
What it has to do with black clothing is that the brighter I am and the closer I am to the kerb the less likely I am to get hit round here where it's fairly normal for cars to overtake on blind bends at 40-60 mph, the primary position just does not work round here. I go on my experience rather than what I read on t'interwebs; ymmv
I think I understand perfectly what the primary position is; that doesn't mean I have to agree that it's safest for the roads I cycle along locally.
I think I understand perfectly what the primary position is; that doesn't mean I have to agree that it's safest for the roads I cycle along locally.
But you're assuming that it should be applied there, and that isn't necessarily the case.
exactly; even if it may be safer in some circumstances it just pisses off many drivers who are in a hurry (often to go to a garden centre);
...
wearing black often adds to their prejudices that we are arrogant bastards who don't pay road tax.
I think I understand perfectly what the primary position is; that doesn't mean I have to agree that it's safest for the roads I cycle along locally.
exactly; even if it may be safer in some circumstances it just pisses off many drivers who are in a hurry (often to go to a garden centre);
...
wearing black often adds to their prejudices that we are arrogant bastards who don't pay road tax.
I think both of these statements show more about your own thoughts rather than those of drivers. We all ride less than ideally at times, and it's most likely your considerable experience and skill together with how safe cycling is that lets you get away with it.
The main problem is that drivers don't look for cyclists. Where I work, everyone knows I cycle, and a few people have commented to me how much more they notice cyclists now.
Why is it only ever cyclists, motorcyclists, horseriders, roadworkers who have to be inconvenienced/made to dress up?
Because they are the vulnerable ones. Why is it such a big deal?
Because no-one ever seems to suggest it for cars. It's always everyone else's problem.
As has been pointed out in this thread, car:car SMIDSYs also happen, so where's the "campaign" to have hi-viz on the front of cars?
exactly; even if it may be safer in some circumstances it just pisses off many drivers who are in a hurry (often to go to a garden centre);
...
wearing black often adds to their prejudices that we are arrogant bastards who don't pay road tax.
I think both of these statements show more about your own thoughts rather than those of drivers. We all ride less than ideally at times, and it's most likely your considerable experience and skill together with how safe cycling is that lets you get away with it.
I forgot to add, that the little of your cycling I saw some time ago was actually pretty "cyclecraft".
| Position | Outcome |
| Centre of lane 1 | All traffic changed lanes to overtake |
| In polished nearside tyre line | All traffic changed lanes to overtake |
| Tyres 2 inches to the right of the white edge line | All traffic changed lanes to overtake |
| Tyres 2 inches to the left of the white edge line | All traffic pushed past in lane 1 |
It's all very well writing a book about how vehicles perceive cyclists but the reality is often different which is pretty much my whole take on the subject; not saying it's not theoretically right.
was on a 70mph dual carriageway, so started experimenting.
Position Outcome
Centre of lane 1 All traffic changed lanes to overtake
Brave? Nah - just completely nutty ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I did keep an eye in the mirrors though ;)