Author Topic: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2  (Read 102621 times)

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #25 on: 27 November, 2010, 10:42:38 am »
 Not wanting to lose face they've ploughed ahead.

The current state of play in a nutshell.
The sound of one pannier flapping

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #26 on: 27 November, 2010, 10:43:19 am »
FWIW I haven't renewed this year because of all this.

That'll help  ::-)

I'm going to stay a member so that I can vote.  Once/if the CTC irrevocably becomes an organisation that institutionally cannot benefit me (ie a charity) then I shall leave.  

Peter

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #27 on: 27 November, 2010, 10:48:22 am »
Is any external body involved to ensure fairness of vote counting this time?


Or will they just be counted and recounted until the right answer is arrived at :demon: ;D


Council decided not to use ERS this time.

And I've just had 'Cycle' delivered.  Not much balance in the article on the the vote. Snide digs at Jeff Tollerman (who didn't refuse to be interviewed, he simply wanted to know what sort of questions would be asked). Plus there is a response to the petition - which Council agreed there wouldn't be.

Frankly, I'm thinking of chucking it in.  Let the turkeys vote for Christmas...
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #28 on: 27 November, 2010, 10:54:00 am »
So, if lots of no votes go in early, I presume they'll up the campaigning.  Better hang on before posting then.

Maybe Tewdric is right in spite of my previous post - do I want to be part of an organisation run by people who play politics in this way?
Peter

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #29 on: 27 November, 2010, 10:58:35 am »

Council and National Office have shown once again that they cannot be trusted. 


Well, I trust them - and will be voting "get on with it" as before.

Obviously you have not been on the receiving end of the HQ dirty tricks brigade. I have and nothing will make me trust them while the current regime is in position.
Most people tip-toe through life hoping the make it safely to death.
Home

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #30 on: 27 November, 2010, 11:02:11 am »
Even better...  :facepalm:

If there is more than one member in the household, then they'll all be asked to vote on that same voting slip.  So much for a secret ballot.

And the only contact for further information is Kevin Mayne.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #31 on: 27 November, 2010, 01:43:26 pm »
Cycle just came through the door. I may have missed something in the previous discussion, can I check I've got this right:
The current vote is a response to a petition to review motion 8.
What constitutes "yes" here? Simple majority in a re-run of the AGM vote without proxies to the chair; or are they looking for / needing a greater turnout / proportion of the vote?
Even if this is passed does this still need to get 75% on motion 10 at some point?

robbo6

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #32 on: 27 November, 2010, 01:59:59 pm »
I haven't renewed (mainly 'cos I've gone over to FFCT) but I am reliably informed a copy of "Cycle" is waiting for me, with an "IMPORTANT DO NO THROW THIS SHEET AWAY..." enclosed.

Dan Joyce

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #33 on: 27 November, 2010, 03:00:21 pm »
Is any external body involved to ensure fairness of vote counting this time?


Or will they just be counted and recounted until the right answer is arrived at :demon: ;D


Council decided not to use ERS this time.

And I've just had 'Cycle' delivered.  Not much balance in the article on the the vote. Snide digs at Jeff Tollerman (who didn't refuse to be interviewed, he simply wanted to know what sort of questions would be asked).

Greg, that's a strange reading of the facts. I did tell Jeff the sort of questions I would ask in the telephone interview I requested. Jeff wanted all my questions, in advance, by email. I refused this, because I didn't want pre-prepared answers from him; I wanted a live, telephone interview. And Jeff declined this. He and I reached a compromise, in that I agreed to print from a statement that he would write. We had an entirely pleasant email exchange and I'm happy to post the entire transcript on this site.

I won't intrude any further into this discussion, which I chanced up because I do monitor what's said about the magazine. It's not my fight. (I'm not even the referee, but rather an observer.) If you do want to get hold of me for any reason, feel free to email me at the usual ctc.org.uk address.
All the best, and may the best argument win,
Dan




Julian

  • samoture
Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #34 on: 27 November, 2010, 03:06:49 pm »
Cycle just came through the door. I may have missed something in the previous discussion, can I check I've got this right:
The current vote is a response to a petition to review motion 8.
What constitutes "yes" here? Simple majority in a re-run of the AGM vote without proxies to the chair; or are they looking for / needing a greater turnout / proportion of the vote?
Even if this is passed does this still need to get 75% on motion 10 at some point?


The motion to convert to a charity was passed by a narrow margin at the AGM. 

CTC has been petitioned to re-run that vote.  The vote now is the same one:  should CTC convert to a charity.

If it is passed then yes, it will still need a Special Resolution to amend the Memorandum of Association, which requires 75% in favour.

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #35 on: 27 November, 2010, 03:45:15 pm »
I speak as a member who was aware of the strength of feeling (mainly through discussion on YACF) and who cared enough to listen to the protracted arguments both ways and vote accordingly. What I'm trying to say is that it all mattered to me but I was not directly involved so was not affected sufficiently to feel upset or angry although, if I'm honest, I have to admit to becoming a little fed up by the whole thing in the end.

For some strange reason I didn't get this week's email newsletter but the coverage in the magazine looks fairly balanced to me. JT's written statement is presumably quoted in full as is the petition itself and the direct response from the council is no longer. Overall, it appears to me that reasonably fair proportions of the page have been devoted to either side of the argument. So, the way I see it, 600+ members called for a petition and we now have such a petition the terms of which seem pretty straightforward. I don't personally see the encouragement to vote (either way) as being unfair because following the AGM I noted the small proportion of the membership that had cared to vote on something that had taken up so much time and energy. If a greater number vote on this petition then, whatever the outcome, that's fine - that's democracy. Presumably in calling for a petition the 600+ petitioners were hoping to get a greater number of members involved than on the AGM vote.

I'm wondering what will be the effect of the outcome either way. If motion 8 is rejected presumably that will mean that the council will have to completely drop the idea of converting to a charity and move on. If motion 8 is confirmed, I guess the council will be encouraged to propose the required change to the articles again sooner than they otherwise would've as they will be empowered to take the next required step in putting into effect the wishes of what they would (if this is the outcome) have established is the majority.

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #36 on: 27 November, 2010, 03:55:44 pm »
There's updated info here (in the links at the bottom of the page):

Converting CTC to a Charity

It addresses a number of the concerns (member benefits possibly cut, etc). Haven't had time to read it all yet though.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #37 on: 27 November, 2010, 05:34:56 pm »
Reg or anyone,

Please can you explain what this vote means.

If the Ayes get 75% is that it ?  The CTC becomes a charity ?

Thanks.
Rust never sleeps

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #38 on: 27 November, 2010, 05:45:20 pm »
The motion to convert to a charity was passed by a narrow margin at the AGM. 
Only by the Chairman including all the the "don't know" proxy votes, wasn't it?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #39 on: 27 November, 2010, 05:47:35 pm »
AIUI (I've not seen the voting form yet), it's a rerun of just Motion 8 from the last vote (which was passed last time with 54%). It's being rerun (despite being passed) because 600 members signed a petition asking for a rerun of that motion.

This needs just 50%, but that doesn't make the CTC become a charity.

If it gets passed then they will need to hold another vote to rewrite the constitution (i.e. Motion 10 last time). That's the one that needs 75%.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LindaG

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #40 on: 27 November, 2010, 05:48:08 pm »

The facts of the matter are that certain members of Council got bounced into the idea of a charity by National Office.  They didn't take advice on things like the tax implications (which show that the proposals are not to the benefits of members)


A key issue of any charity, that it should not exist to benefit its members.

Adrian, as I understand it, a charity can deliver its aims via a membership structure, and this fulfils the 'public benefit' requirement.

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #41 on: 27 November, 2010, 05:52:01 pm »

The facts of the matter are that certain members of Council got bounced into the idea of a charity by National Office.  They didn't take advice on things like the tax implications (which show that the proposals are not to the benefits of members)


A key issue of any charity, that it should not exist to benefit its members.

Adrian, as I understand it, a charity can deliver its aims via a membership structure, and this fulfils the 'public benefit' requirement.

The 'benefits' stuff is discussed here:-

News and updates
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #42 on: 27 November, 2010, 06:01:11 pm »
I wasn't feeling all that strongly but this tactic will be sure to give me the motivation to post in a big fat 'no' vote.

same here

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #43 on: 27 November, 2010, 06:52:34 pm »

The facts of the matter are that certain members of Council got bounced into the idea of a charity by National Office.  They didn't take advice on things like the tax implications (which show that the proposals are not to the benefits of members)


A key issue of any charity, that it should not exist to benefit its members.

Adrian, as I understand it, a charity can deliver its aims via a membership structure, and this fulfils the 'public benefit' requirement.

But is this an established fact or is it an untested plan?

Does it get around the 25% rule for claiming the gift aid?
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

gordon taylor

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #44 on: 27 November, 2010, 07:40:39 pm »
How come the London Cycling Campaign with 11000 members is a chartity?

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #45 on: 27 November, 2010, 07:51:11 pm »
How come the London Cycling Campaign with 11000 members is a chartity?

I think they started out as a charity, but maybe someone will correct me? There are lots of membership bodies that are charities, including the London Library and the National Trust.

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #46 on: 27 November, 2010, 07:53:44 pm »

The facts of the matter are that certain members of Council got bounced into the idea of a charity by National Office.  They didn't take advice on things like the tax implications (which show that the proposals are not to the benefits of members)


A key issue of any charity, that it should not exist to benefit its members.

Adrian, as I understand it, a charity can deliver its aims via a membership structure, and this fulfils the 'public benefit' requirement.

But is this an established fact or is it an untested plan?

Does it get around the 25% rule for claiming the gift aid?

The link I posted here may answer your question:-

The 'benefits' stuff is discussed here:-

News and updates
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LindaG

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #47 on: 27 November, 2010, 09:02:20 pm »

The facts of the matter are that certain members of Council got bounced into the idea of a charity by National Office.  They didn't take advice on things like the tax implications (which show that the proposals are not to the benefits of members)


A key issue of any charity, that it should not exist to benefit its members.

Adrian, as I understand it, a charity can deliver its aims via a membership structure, and this fulfils the 'public benefit' requirement.

But is this an established fact or is it an untested plan?

Does it get around the 25% rule for claiming the gift aid?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the first part of your question.

I can't see any reason why gift aid wouldn't be payable?

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #48 on: 27 November, 2010, 09:09:33 pm »
This appears in Cycle Clips today.

Quote
Converting CTC to a charity - it's your vote that counts

'Cycle' magazine is landing on your doorstep about now. Don't throw out the bright yellow address sheet - it has details of an important vote for the future of CTC. Voting is easy: the form is pre-printed, comes with a Freepost envelope and you could win brilliant cycling prizes from the CTC Shop.

The vote is on whether to confirm the proposal already passed at our 2010 AGM that the original CTC - Cyclists' Touring Club - should convert to a charity and merge fully with our current charitable arm - CTC Charitable Trust. So we can have a really clear decision, Council wants every CTC member to vote, and all returned forms will also be entered into the free prize draw to win a Gore jacket,Ortlieb pannier and Lifeline toolkit.

They really are desperate aren't they ?

Ah. Just read the piece in Cycle. I hadn't realised that this vote has been forced by members engaging in direct action. I had wrongly assumed this was Council trying to get the result they want by another method.  Apologies for the cynicism displayed.
Rust never sleeps

Re: CTC Charitable status - Ding Ding !! Round 2
« Reply #49 on: 27 November, 2010, 09:23:39 pm »

Council and National Office have shown once again that they cannot be trusted. 


Well, I trust them - and will be voting "get on with it" as before.

Gordy, I think *extremely* highly of you, but on this one issue I think you ought to reconsider.  All the signs look very bad to me.  Like others here, I'm not against the CTC becoming a charity, but I'm very sceptical of this current move, the apparently dishonest pro campaigning, and the motivations behind it all.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.