Author Topic: 999 operators cannot handle grid references  (Read 89883 times)

Biggsy

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999 operators cannot handle grid references
« on: 17 June, 2011, 03:30:47 pm »
After getting a GPS/satnav device, I was thinking I'd be able to get the emergency services to me even if I had no clue of my location other than what the device is telling me*.  But today I discover this:

Walkers' lives put at risk by 999 reliance on satnavs - Telegraph

Quote
Some emergency service software systems insist on a postcode, while in other cases staff have not been trained to interpret grid references.

Quote
The vast majority of serious walkers still relied on paper maps rather than electronic devices like global positioning systems or smartphones, she said. Consequently they were used to giving grid references if needs be.

Ironically, you may only have a grid reference (or equivalent) rather than a postcode with certain GPS devices, like my Garmin Edge 605.

Have you given a grid reference to a 999 operator?  What was your experience?

EDIT: * I suppose I would attempt to describe my location from the map, but my description might be rather vague if it's a rural area with few features and roads, for example.  That's crap when I have the technology to pinpoint my position within a few feet.  That technology could be a satnav or an old-fashioned map!
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Jaded

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #1 on: 17 June, 2011, 03:43:02 pm »
I think it has been pointed out before that mountains and long uninhabited rural roads don't have Postcodes.

Surely it is not beyond their wit to have a system where you can enter grid references as well as Postcodes. There is a new problem with Grid References for someone taught them on OS Maps in the '60s. They seem to have 10 numbers now, where they used to have 6. Is that level of accuracy needed?
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Biggsy

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #2 on: 17 June, 2011, 03:48:25 pm »
A 6-figure grid reference would be good enough, and they should be trained and equiped to deal with both 6 and 10 figures, and all the other codes GPSs give out.  I'm sure Ordnance Survey would be happy to help with improvements to the 999 system.
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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #3 on: 17 June, 2011, 03:51:04 pm »
have a system where you can enter grid references as well as Postcodes.

It's called Streetmap innit?

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newdefaulte2.htm

OK, so it is the old site - the new doesn't appear to have this facility!

Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #4 on: 17 June, 2011, 03:51:20 pm »
I've seen people talk about the reliance on postcodes in the past, which is frankly utterly fuckwitted by the relevant companies.

My commute is twelve miles, it's not at all unlikely that I may come across an accident whilst on it, and I don't know (nor do I intend to learn) all of the postcodes between work, which is an SW postcode, and home which is in CR.

This is hardly an unusual scenario, most road traffic accidents are going to be reported by people in cars, who in all likelihood don't know their current postcode.

Stupid, really stupid.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

hellymedic

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #5 on: 17 June, 2011, 03:55:43 pm »
There is no postcode for places without buildings. People in general know postcodes only for their home and work address, not for any of the other places they may visit.
Somewhat tangential, but still relevant IMO was my exchange with the Control Centre for my taxis.

'I'd like a taxi to take me home from Chix Chox restaurant.'
'Do you have a postcode?'
''No. It's London N12, but I don't know the second half.'
'Do you have an address?'
'*** High Road, North Finchley. It's opposite McDonald's, just north of the apex of Tally Ho Corner.'
'That information is of no use to me.'

The control centre was in Aberdeen while I was in Londonton. That information should be adequate to anyone on the ground but no Clue and no local knowledge did not help. At least this was not an emergency.

There is far too much dependence on satnavs and postcodes.

Biggsy

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #6 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:11:52 pm »
My Edge 605 offers a choice of various codes, including the British grid system (10-digit).  Ironically, I chose grid reference for the default because I thought the emergency services would certainly be able to use that.
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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #7 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:12:14 pm »
6 figure grid reference, eg, SP419254

That appears to be a crossraods just to the south of Sanford St Martin according to Streetmap - correct?

20 secs at most!

mattc

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #8 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:12:47 pm »
As Jaded points out, the most popular and the one taught in schools is what we call a 6 figure grid reference, eg, SP419254 (Hi, rogbul!). That is accurate to the nearest 100 metres. In an emergency situation it is possible that the nearest 100 metres could be not accurate enough.

Yebbut it's enough when you add
'I'm at no 456' OR
'I'm outside McDs in a pool of my own blood'
etc ...
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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #9 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:17:06 pm »
Are Emergency Services able to locate the position of a Cell Phone?

OK, you need a signal, but the technology has been there to track "a loved one" for ages, just wondered whether the tech had made its way to the 999 folks.

As mentioned above, sometimes you wouldn't have a clue where you were (and reading your Audax route-sheet instructions to the Ambulance driver may not result in the most direct route to your mangled body)




Biggsy

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #10 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:17:39 pm »
A 6-figure ref could cause delays if you were off-road, but still that's a lot better than not having/knowing a postcode, or being able to give only a vague description of your position.
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Kim

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #11 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:18:36 pm »
WTF?  I was taught that the emergency operator could understand OS grid refs, addresses/postcodes and landline phone numbers (do they get a triangulated position from cellular providers?  I accept that these are hopelessly inaccurate outside built-up areas).

It's absolutely appalling if they can't understand an OS grid ref (or indeed a WGS84 grid ref in any of the common formats).  This should be a basic part of their systems' functionality and the operator training, and given the proliferation of GPS devices, I'd expect more people to be using them, not less.

GPS devices are absolutely fantastic at giving a precise location.  The maps that some of them use (and the postcode database, by design) can often be dubious at giving accurate locations.  It's stupid to involve more layers of complexity than needed.

Arrgh!

They probably treat tapping on the mouthpiece as a hoax call, too.   :facepalm:

Biggsy

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #12 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:21:29 pm »
Are Emergency Services able to locate the position of a Cell Phone?

Only roughly at first.  It takes a while to get a usefully precise location from a cell phone.  (This was mentioned on BBC Real Rescues last week).
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benborp

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #13 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:23:40 pm »
Even if the location of the emergency is in the vicinity of a building with a known postcode there is also the fact that the accurate use of postcodes requires several databases, some of them commercial, to be up to date. My property was registered in 2008, it was only a few months ago that any body other than Royal Mail would recognise its postcode as being valid. It will take years before it's reliably incorporated into the various SatNav systems. Anyone trying to find my house using SatNav will usually get the response 'computer says "no"', although there's a system out there somewhere which directs people to a house a mile or so away with a completely different postal address, you'd have to be a fool to be believe you were in the correct place (which is probably why all my DHL deliveries end up there).
I also know of a large public building which is frequented by several hundred people a day that SatNav places 1 3/4miles away in a separate town on the opposite bank of the Thames from where it actually stands. It's been there since 2004.

How anyone can commission and operate a system for use by the emergency services that in practice relies on postcodes should surprise me. It doesn't though.
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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #14 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:30:07 pm »
This is the usual Telegraph shroud waving based on some third hand comment on supposed incidents...

The CAD systems used by all ambulance trusts in England are capable of dealing with grid references, as well as post codes.  Operators are trained how to enter them.  AFAIK its exactly the same with the police and the fire brigade (and the coastuard and the mountain rescue).
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Biggsy

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #15 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:47:35 pm »
From Ramblers:

Quote
Walk Leaders have reported that ambulances have been delayed because of an inability to understand grid references given as a location.

Why should we think the reports are untrue?
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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #16 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:51:32 pm »
Years ago, when my in-laws lived in a small village on the coast of the Lizard, they came out of the pub one night to find the house opposite on fire.  Fire brigade duly called.  The control centre was miles away, probably Plymouth.  The fire station (volunteer crew) was in the next village, three miles up the road.

The controller insisted on not just the postcode (which f-in-l knew) but the house number.  None of the houses there had numbers.  "How are the brigade going to know which house to attend?"  "It's the one with the flames coming out of the window.  Tell them it's Charley's house - they'll know it".  The argument, like the fire, raged for some time.  

The house was gutted.  Fortunately Charley wasn't in it (probably in the pub).

Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #17 on: 17 June, 2011, 04:57:00 pm »
A colleague at work (an outdoor activities centre based in an urban area) about 2 years ago had occasion to call for an ambulance whilst about 500 metres from nearest building or road, and yes, was asked for postcode although he could give grid ref and lat/long. Operator was adamant he could not do anything without a postcode.
In the end I think he was transferred to air ambulance contact (which was what he had said from the start was required) who did understand grid refs.

edit: I think from first phone call to ambulance being given information to be despatched was 20mins.

Regulator

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #18 on: 17 June, 2011, 05:04:00 pm »
From Ramblers:

Quote
Walk Leaders have reported that ambulances have been delayed because of an inability to understand grid references given as a location.

Why should we think the reports are untrue?

Because people tend to exaggerate...

People call an ambulance and expect it to appear miraculously within minutes.  The reality is, the ambulance may be miles away and it actually has to get to where the incident is.  The ambulance service are not miracle workers - and, as far as I am aware, the haven't perfected teleportation or warp drive.
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I completely agree with Reg.

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Kim

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #19 on: 17 June, 2011, 05:26:13 pm »
Hmm, is this sort of thing covered by the Freedom of Information Act?

Tourist Tony

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #20 on: 17 June, 2011, 05:36:29 pm »
I had a massive puncture in the rear tyre of my Kawasaki years ago. I gave the RAC a six figure grid ref.
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Biggsy

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #21 on: 17 June, 2011, 06:31:12 pm »
From Ramblers:

Quote
Walk Leaders have reported that ambulances have been delayed because of an inability to understand grid references given as a location.

Why should we think the reports are untrue?

Because people tend to exaggerate...

People call an ambulance and expect it to appear miraculously within minutes.  The reality is, the ambulance may be miles away and it actually has to get to where the incident is.  The ambulance service are not miracle workers - and, as far as I am aware, the haven't perfected teleportation or warp drive.

The complaints are specifically about the handling of grid references, not delays in general.

A few of many examples from Ramblers | Home | Incidents when grid references have not understood by the local ambulance control room staff:

Shropshire Incident
2009 - Walker fell and group suspected a broken leg. Called 999 and requested ambulance. They were asked for a postcode or street name. The group were only able to provide a grid reference. Unable to handle a grid reference the operator asked for the nearest roads and landmarks. When the ambulance arrived the paramedic said they should have provided a grid reference and they would have been there quicker!

Whittington Incident
May 2010 - Group called 999. Ambulance requested to attend to walker with deep cut to leg. Group had been walking along river bank. Grid reference given, however operator unable to interpretate. Postcode or road name wanted. Operator was informed the group were on the south west side of the river. However ambulance sent to wrong location, resulting in an hours delay.

Romsey Incident
2010 - Group came across an injured walker in woodland. Called 999 and requested help. Group provided grid reference, but operator asked for postcode. Unable to give a postcode the group used local landmarks to describe their location. A helicopter was dispatched.

Bracknell Incident
March 2010 - Ambulance requested for walkerwith broken wrist and elbow. Group provided grid reference but operator wanted a postcode. One walker ran to nearest property and back again and provided a postcode.

Oxfordshire Incident
Mar 2010 - Ambulance called for injured walker. Grid reference given. However the operator did not understand grid references. Call was transferred to another member of centre staff who understood grid references.

Peak District Incident
2010 - Group called 999 and requested an ambulance. They have a grid reference as their location. However the operator requested a postcode. Unable to provide this the group had to refer to their map and provide details about the nearest landmarks.

October 2010 - Group called 999 for injured walker. Put through to ambulance service. Grid reference was given as the location. Operator asked for street name or postcode. But incident was on the fell. Eventually the group managed to inform the operator their location by using the map and telling them local landmarks.


- - - - - -

Ramblers | Home | Background information :


Our research has shown that each Ambulance Trust operates its own set of procedures. So one Trust may act in a different way to another. Generally it seems that most Trusts do train staff on how to understand a grid reference, but that this training is not followed up. Or it may also be that the computer system used by the staff cannot handle the input of grid references. Below we have detailed responses from Trusts who have responded to our call for information on this issue:

North West Ambulance Service

[The computer software we use] provides the call handler with the ability to Northing and Easting references, and also longitude and latitude. If a caller explains that they are walking in rural areas and gave a grid reference this information can be entered into the system and the position plotted on the mapping system.

The training that newly qualified Emergency Medical Dispatch Operators recieve during their initial training course includes self learning materials downloaded from the Ordnance Survey website.

North East Ambulance Service

The NEAS Call Handler can input a grid reference using alphabetical numerical OS System for example NZ 123 456.

NEAS can also input a grid reference without the alphabet pre-fix.

All Contact Centre call taking staff receive training in this format on their initial training course. We also have a reference sheet on each...desk.

South Western Ambulance Service

Thank you for your letter, my apologies for the lateness in this reply which was due to discussions that your letter generated with our Freatures team and technology suppilers.

I am pleased to be able to advise that the system [we use] can be updated in order to accept such information and that I have approved the purchase and upgrade at the cost of £1800. The facility should be up and running in three months time.

Great Western Ambulance Service

I have discussed your concerns...and I can confirm that [we] do train the Emergency Medical Dispathcers (EMD) in the following areas;

•Grid references - Easting and Northing, Latitude and Longitude, OS Map references
Each EMD undertakes individual training, supported by our EMD Locate and Verify training manual.

South East Coast Ambulance Service

The Emergency Dispatch Centres in Surrey and Kent use a new Computer Aided Dispatch system which has recentally been installed. On this new system, a grid reference can be entered directly into the system which then translates it to a location. The new system will be implimated in the Sussex EDC shortly.

West Midlands Ambulance Service

The grid reference information entered [when provided by the caller] will change to display Easting's and Northing's and plot the location on the computer mapping system and verify the location accurate to a range of approximately 50 meters.

The control room staff undertake a full training programme that meets all the requirements of the Trust.

Yorkshire Ambulance Service

The computer aided dispatch system (CAD 3) that we use in both our 999 centres allows any incident to be overridden with either coordinates which are entered as OS 12 figure or from the Geographical information system (GIS) Mapping which then updates CAD 3 with the coordinates from the location chosen on map.
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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #22 on: 17 June, 2011, 08:05:57 pm »
Ambulance messages texted out to Alternate Responders like BASICS doctors in rural areas have "in general area of Ambridge" & the approximate postcode from the 999 call.




clarion

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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #23 on: 17 June, 2011, 08:36:40 pm »
When I called 999 in Rathan's case, the first thing I was asked for was the postcode.  It was at a junction on a main arterial road in South London.  As I was on the phone, I was simultaneously trying to keep drivers from turning into the road and running over the poor bugger again.  I got the first half of the postcode from the streetsign, but no one knew the rest.  I commute through several postcode areas and five local authority areas - how the hell am I supposed to know the postcode of every sodding property even on that route?  it's ridiculous.  OK, so I couldn't give a frid ref in that case, but the operator wasn't interested in making a note of the information I was giving. >:(
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Re: 999 operators cannot handle grid references
« Reply #24 on: 17 June, 2011, 09:05:47 pm »
Sounds like a few meatware issues - but I can assuare you that the CAD system is capable of handling grid references and the call handlers are trained in taking them.

We have a few examples from the almost 6 million 999 calls made each year.
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I completely agree with Reg.

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