Cross Training: Running

[NikW]

Not a biggie, Meall Cluaich,

That's a lot of contours [url Meall Chuaich, Drumochter - Route Map /url]  .  I'm only a bit jealous.

I also found snow to run in on top of my local Shotover hill this morning, only an 80m climb but still seems to be enough altitude to have stopped last night' fall melting.  Always amazes me I can run in 2 inches of snow in thin socks and trail shoes and not get cold feet.  The field at the bottom was up to my ankles in melt water.

I often land on my forefoot running down hill to prevent jarring and always run up steep hills on my forefoot (not much choice really).  I think it harder work on the calf and Achilles though and change back to my normal style as soon as I get back on the flat.  I think running writer Bob Glover describes this as 'changing gear'.  (And yes now you mention it I climb and descend the stairs on my forefoot without even thinking about it.)

Attempting an off-road hilly 20 miler and an off-road bit hilly marathon for the first time last year I was surprised to pass many apparently experienced runners walking the steeper hills right from the beginning.  They were maybe less surprised to overtake me as I walked up the slight inclines towards the end  .  I believe they were sparing themselves the stress of straining up the hills on the forefoot so that their muscles would last the course.  Unless you get shin splints or joint trouble it's unlikely to be the bones that hurt first but I certainly get sore leg muscles and I intend to try and preserve them on this years longer runs.

Nik 

[Frenchie]

Nice hill ride. I'd like to do one in the PD this Sunday, if possible.

Having just tried the forefoot landing, I certainly feel more of an impact on the knees and Achille's. With the heel landing I roll foward in motion (quickly) and spring away; a smoother transition on the flat. Yes, on hills I run more on the forefoot.

[mattc]

Not a biggie, Meall Cluaich,

That's a lot of contours [url Meall Chuaich, Drumochter - Route Map /url]  .

What a great site:
DISCLAIMER: Walking can be dangerous

[Rich753]

Not a biggie, Meall Cluaich,

That's a lot of contours [url Meall Chuaich, Drumochter - Route Map /url]  .

What a great site:
DISCLAIMER: Walking can be dangerous

Agreed, brilliant site, thanks

[Greenbank]

30 mins at 10.5kph on the treadmill (1^o incline). 477 kcal including warm up and cool down.

The fan in the gym was broken and so I was even sweatier than normal. Felt quite light headed after finishing. Peaked at 191bpm. DO NOT LIKE.

33 mins next time. May even nip to Maplin and buy a fan. Ugh.

[mattc]

30 mins at 10.5kph on the treadmill
...

The fan in the gym was broken and so I was even sweatier than normal. Felt quite light headed after finishing. Peaked at 191bpm. DO NOT LIKE.

Couldn't you just slow down? :-?

[Rich753]

But how would he get a body like yours if he slows down?

[Greenbank]

Couldn't you just slow down? :-?

Because below 10.5kph is just slow.

[NikW]

30 mins at 10.5kph on the treadmill (1^o incline). 477 kcal including warm up and cool down.

The fan in the gym was broken and so I was even sweatier than normal. Felt quite light headed after finishing. Peaked at 191bpm. DO NOT LIKE.

33 mins next time. May even nip to Maplin and buy a fan. Ugh.

Do the speeds on those treadmills reflect real running speeds?  (I know miles done on my turbo trainer at 'neutral' setting are noticeably slower than real miles on the road.)

Nik

[Greenbank]

Do the speeds on those treadmills reflect real running speeds?  (I know miles done on my turbo trainer at 'neutral' setting are noticeably slower than real miles on the road.)

Pretty much yes, it's very slightly easier on a treadmill as it is perfectly even and there's less thought involved in foot placement. The 1^o incline makes up for that though.

It's not like a turbo on neutral setting, you're still running that distance. There aren't any resistance settings on a treadmill. The belt is moving at whatever speed you set it to. If you don't match your speed then you'll know about it reasonably quickly.

A treadmill is the running equivalent of doing all of your cycling on lovely smooth Welsh A-roads.

[andygates]

I'm not entirely convinced of that, but a treadmill is definitely closer to the real thing than a turbo is.

[NikW]

Yes thinking about it they're very different things, I suppose if so many k of belt has disappeared behind you then you must have run that far.  I suppose the momentum carrying you forward might be different.  And the incline - is that just a sort of technical paperback wedged under the front?

(Not that I'm particularly tempted - I think I'd rather run up a hill in the mud.)

Nik

[andygates]

Fancy treadmills have a controllable incline, so you can do hill stuff (even less real, but still challenging) and so on.

It's got to be pretty close, because a friend started his running career off using just a treadmill for a 1:45 half-marathon. 

[Greenbank]

I'm not entirely convinced of that

Which bit? (because you go on to agree with me that it's "pretty close" in your next post)

[andygates]

I'm vague on how to describe it, which is why I left it vague.  Certainly with hills it's obvious, you're not doing the work to lift a body against gravity, just running on a slope.  Otherwise... I don't have the brain for physics right now.  Bah. 

[mattc]

Right - I'm going to put my Physics degree on the line here ... !

I used to have the uneasy feeling that treadmills were doing some of the  work for you. But I _think_ I've convinced myself its the same as GB's perfect smooth Welsh A-road.

Once the belt is moving backward at 6mph, it must take the same effort to run "stationary" as it would to run along the same belt laid out along the floor.

[Standard simplifying assumptions:
You are not running at relativistic speeds.
Real running involves some wind-resistance - I assume this is why GB runs with a fan opposing his progress.]

The advantage (if any) with real-world running is you work those little 'balance' muscles more, and vary your stride pattern to gain <unquantifiable training benefit>. Plus of course you get used to crap weather!

[Greenbank]

Oh I see.

The main reason for using the incline is because my physio advised not to run on the flat on a treadmill; either inclined slightly down or slightly up, and there's no way of those two I'm going to set it to be on a downward slope.

A running machine set to 10^o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10^o inclined slope. If you pick the right frame of reference (such as the trailing/planted foot at the end of the stride) you can show there's no difference at all to climbing a real slope. You're climbing with each stride (the falling foot is impacting the treadmill above the trailing foot) but sliding backwards and downwards whilst that foot is in contact with the 'ground'. The climbing is still done just as it is with running (whilst the other foot is sliding backwards). It's not just a case of twisting the hips and running at an angle. Just set the treadmill to 20^o and see how long you can keep it up at a good speed.

But, of course, a perfectly smooth slope is not what you climb in the real world, so it's not the same as running up a 10^o track let alone a 10^o uneven slippery grassy hill.

[andygates]

A running machine set to 10^o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10^o inclined slope.

No!

On the road you're lifting your body as well as this frame-of-reference stuff. 

[Greenbank]

I assume this is why GB runs with a fan opposing his progress.

No, it's because it gets bloody hot without it because running on the spot means you don't get the cooling effect of the 'wind' you generate.

It's a good point though, static running on a treadmill will be slightly easier as you don't encounter aerodyanmic drag but drag is relatively small at running speeds.

[mattc]

I assume this is why GB runs with a fan opposing his progress.

No, it's because it gets bloody hot without it because running on the spot means you don't get the cooling effect of the 'wind' you generate.

It's a good point though, static running on a treadmill will be slightly easier as you don't encounter aerodyanmic drag but drag is relatively small at running speeds.

Bazinga!

------------------------------------
[I'm still thinking about the incline thing ... ]

[Greenbank]

A running machine set to 10^o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10^o inclined slope.

No!

On the road you're lifting your body as well as this frame-of-reference stuff. 

Yes. Do the physics.

You're still lifting your body on a treadmill. Each subsequent footfall is the appropiate height higher and further forward than the previous one.

If it wasn't then it wouldn't be any harder running on a treadmill on an incline? Try running on one at minimum incline and then at maximum incline.

[mattc]

A running machine set to 10^o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10^o inclined slope.

No!

On the road you're lifting your body as well as this frame-of-reference stuff. 

Yes. Do the physics.

You're still lifting your body on a treadmill. Each subsequent footfall is the appropiate height higher and further forward than the previous one.

If it wasn't then it wouldn't be any harder running on a treadmill on an incline? Try running on one at minimum incline and then at maximum incline.

Yes this is what I was going to say. However:
When running, you actually leave the ground for a short time. In that time the belt drops a few cm that you never need to climb. So I think the effective gradient is slightly less. God knows how big this effect is ...

[NikW]

It seems someone has already done the calculations for wind resistance and worked out how to compensate with the incline adjustment http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php

So according to this at 1 degree Greenbank is ruining harder than the equivalent on (flat, smooth etc) road.

Slow down!

Nik

[NikW]

ruining

That's running (strange typo)

[Greenbank]

Yes this is what I was going to say. However:
When running, you actually leave the ground for a short time. In that time the belt drops a few cm that you never need to climb. So I think the effective gradient is slightly less. God knows how big this effect is ...

Hmm. Interesting.

To turn it around, I wonder if running machines take this into account and adjust the incline appropriately? I've never measured whether the an incline setting of 10^o corresponds to a real incline of 10^o.

I may have just found a use for the iPhone spirit level application. I may have to nip down to the running machine in the gym to test it out.

The average running stride length is about 2m, footfall on a treadmill is about 1m apart. So, in the absence of some proper thought, you'd need a real incline of 2^o on the treadmill to mimic a 1^o incline.