Author Topic: Cross Training: Running  (Read 401173 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #350 on: 06 March, 2010, 11:06:35 am »
Humans aren't very well designed for descending (monkeys climb down trees); running downhill seems like a massive increase in load on the joints, even done slowly. Not being competitive, and already suffering from running gently on the flat, I'm therefore inclined to descend very steadily indeed.

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.
Crikey, that was a bit deep for me weekend elevenses! Sounds right though.


Quote
By putting your weight forward running down hill and not resisting I think you actually lessen the impact as you are using the energy as momentum as you roll onto your midfoot and onwards towards the next step rather than absorbing the whole thud as you effectively stop between each footfall, probably by digging your heel in.
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #351 on: 06 March, 2010, 02:23:42 pm »
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

I'll probably move away from that tomorrow on the half marathon. I'm not sure I'll make it otherwise, but I might try it if the heel strike starts hurting more than I think it needs to. I'm no Eddie Izzard.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #352 on: 06 March, 2010, 07:31:16 pm »
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

I'll probably move away from that tomorrow on the half marathon. I'm not sure I'll make it otherwise, but I might try it if the heel strike starts hurting more than I think it needs to. I'm no Eddie Izzard.


Most useful half-marathon survival tip I've read is:  'If you don't think you're running too slow you're almost certainly running too fast'.  :thumbsup:
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #353 on: 06 March, 2010, 08:21:33 pm »
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

I'll probably move away from that tomorrow on the half marathon. I'm not sure I'll make it otherwise, but I might try it if the heel strike starts hurting more than I think it needs to. I'm no Eddie Izzard.


Most useful half-marathon survival tip I've read is:  'If you don't think you're running too slow you're almost certainly running too fast'.  :thumbsup:

I've always adapted that sort of approach. When I was running cross country at school, even before then at a 1500 meter run in infant school. I was always last at sprints. I could have probably ran faster, but I never saw much point in sprinting. But running to get somewhere made sense. I allready accepted that I was a loser at running, so I just plodded. But I was buggerred to find that I was well up the field in a distance run.
I went on to cross country runs at secondary school and did the same thing. Just take it slow and think about keeping the pace up. On one run I always remember my teacher telling me to get a move on about 100m into a 2 mile run. I was well down the field allready as everyone had dashed off. I ignored him and carried on going at my own pace. About half way around I was passing lots of people and I was in the top 5 at the finish.
I applied this to my cycling and cycled my first 100 miles in a day solo when I was 13. I really got the bug for cycling when I found that I could go a very long way on my bike and running fell by the wayside.

I'm still in two minds as to whether I'll try for a sub 2 hour or just run and try to enjoy it. Every mile is signed, so I'll do my maths homework and use my stopwatch for the first few miles and see whether I think I can do a sub 2 hour.
I will try and resign myself to not aiming for a 2 hour though. Just start nice and easy. It's too much too soon really anyway, but then again, I'm a sucker for a challenge. ???

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #354 on: 07 March, 2010, 02:50:40 pm »
By putting your weight forward running down hill and not resisting I think you actually lessen the impact as you are using the energy as momentum as you roll onto your midfoot and onwards towards the next step rather than absorbing the whole thud as you effectively stop between each footfall, probably by digging your heel in.
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

While I land on my heel I do try not to strike it (unless I'm stumbling down a 1 in 5 just trying to loose speed to survive).  The idea is to roll with the blow and use the momentum to move forward rather than absorbing it in you knee or whichever bit hurts which is a waste.  Maybe heel-roll would be a better term.

I've heard the movement described as an arc, like your feet are just 2 segments of a wheel rim and you roll from one to the next by which time the 1st one is back in front again.  You don't want to 'strike'.  I saw Peter Turnbull strike his back wheel against the ground once when he was trying not to run me other, doing what  I think is technically known as a 'stoppie'.  That bent his wheel as would be expected but that's not normal usage any more than striking your heel while running is.

The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Sigurd Mudtracker

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #355 on: 07 March, 2010, 03:02:47 pm »

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.


You might like to read "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall (coming out in paperback next month).  He puts forward a very persuasive argument that humans are made to run, and that our bipedal approach gives us certain advantages over quadrupeds which allowed early man to be a very successful hunter and to range far and wide.  Expanding on this argument he goes on to show evidence that most runners can continue to function at the same sort of level with little relative decline into their sixties.  This cheered me up immensely!


Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #356 on: 07 March, 2010, 03:31:22 pm »
So it's that stage in the marathon training when long runs take over most of my Sundays.  It's not that I run all day so much as the after effect of my legs and brain not being up to much.  I'm pretty certain I will manage the mile walk to the pub at 4:30 but right at the moment a little nap sounds more appealing.

A hilly (for Oxford) 15 mile multi-terrain this morning.  Plan was to try and do a 10:30 pace and not to take water or food with me though there is a shop at the 10 mile point so I had the option of buying something.  I'd treated myself to MP3 download of Atom Heart Mother which I hadn't heard for yonks and topped up the ipod with a load more Pink Floyd to last me 3 hours.   First 5 miles were too fast but more down than up, through South Park, along Mespot etc. (which means nothing to non-Oxonians).   Managed to ease off a bit through University Parks and feeling pretty ropey climbing up to Old Headington.

Crossed under Greenroad Roundabout then climbed through the CS Lewis Nature Reserve and up the hill to Shotover.  Halfway and not feeling bad, the hill had put me back on pace.  A bloke at Shotover Plain looked decidedly like a marshal and I had a nasty feeling I was going to be that chump who finds himself running the opposite way to a race, fortunately the front runners appeared from the woods and took the other track.

Down the bridleway towards Wheatley,finding enough enthusiasm to jump the 3 horsey hurdles that were set up there.  A look over to the right to see the Windmill at the top of the hill I'd be climbing next.  Through Wheatley then very gently up the hill not bothering with the shop stop.  Some bloke ran past me but I doubt he was going the distance I was.  Up the track by the Windmill then back on tarmac to descend halfway through Littleworth, feeling well stuffed as I turned into Butts Lane, the final off road climb back up to Shotover hurt.

I diverted through Shotover as I thought there might be kids races along the course of the earlier XC race.  Checked my watch at 13.1 miles to find 2hr 15m, made me wonder how Teethgrinder was getting on.  Legs were too stuffed to enjoy the final descent much and I realised I was a bit under distance and would need to add a small loop.  I was hoping the lights would be green at the Bypass crossing so I'd be obliged to stop and wait but no such luck.  That horrible thought that a marathon is actually 11 miles further than this hit me as plodded along the home run.  My lower leg muscles really hurt, like someone had given them a good beating with a broom handle or something, but all me bones and joints seemed to be fine.  A drink of water followed by a recovery drink then I flopped in a chair while Jane massaged the pain away. Average 10:27 pace but not done the easy way.
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #357 on: 07 March, 2010, 03:36:35 pm »

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.


You might like to read "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall (coming out in paperback next month).  He puts forward a very persuasive argument that humans are made to run, and that our bipedal approach gives us certain advantages over quadrupeds which allowed early man to be a very successful hunter and to range far and wide.  Expanding on this argument he goes on to show evidence that most runners can continue to function at the same sort of level with little relative decline into their sixties.  This cheered me up immensely!


I'll look out for that, I'm 47 and feel like I've only just started so could do with some good news  :thumbsup:

Ultra-running eh - now there's a thing.
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #358 on: 07 March, 2010, 04:58:38 pm »
That was jolly good fun. :D
I couldn't start too fast even if I wanted to. Too many bloomin runners in the way.
So a nice plod down hill at the start running in a big bunch on a closed dual carriageway. I did have a good chuckle at a car that had gone off the road and hit a lamp post. :demon: ;D
I seemed to be passing lots of people and it was a bit of speeding up quite a bit to passa small bunch then settling down again, remembering not to go bonkers.
First mile came up in about 8 minutes, so I was on for a sub 2 hour. (9.23mins is 2 hour pace) That cheered me up. :)
It all seemed to go swimmingly. Legs hurt a bit after the first mile, but as I go into it they felt OK again.
I checked my watch at every milepost and doing the maths. I knew that I was well on schedule for a sub 2 hour which kept me in good spirits and made me think that I could have a little rest or take it easy for a bit if I felt like it and still be in with a good chance.
It was good fun though. Just running along in the sunshine. I was probably a bit erratic. Fast on descents compared to those around me. I tried to let myself go but it did get me breathing.
My cadence was slower than the 10k run a few weeks ago, but so was my pace.
At 10 miles, I definitely noticed that I wasn't going quite as well as I was at the start, but wasn't having a bad time and I don't think I slowed down noticeably.
I just hung in comfortably and ticked off the last few miles.
An uphill finish in the last mile, then the 500m mark. I didn't feel like going just yet. I let go with 250m to go, not that it would make any difference to my time, but just because...
Passed a few more on the last 250m giving it some welly to cross the line with 1:44:?? on the clock.
Luverly jubbly. :thumbsup:
Think I'll go do a marathon next.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #359 on: 07 March, 2010, 05:04:48 pm »
Think I'll go do a marathon next.
I'd give it a couple of days, if i were you.

Must put my feet up - i've just walked to the shops and back ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #360 on: 07 March, 2010, 07:34:41 pm »
That was jolly good fun. :D

Excellent result - up in the first 25%  :thumbsup:

Which marathon then?
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Sigurd Mudtracker

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #361 on: 08 March, 2010, 08:24:30 am »
You could do a lot worse than Loch Ness: scenic point to point race over closed or very quiet roads although the "rolling" terrain would mean a PB was out of the question.  A long way for many to travel, but worth it, IMHO

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #362 on: 08 March, 2010, 02:41:59 pm »
Well done TG, congrats.

"What a long, strange trip it's been", Truckin'

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #363 on: 08 March, 2010, 04:14:58 pm »
That was jolly good fun. :D

Passed a few more on the last 250m giving it some welly to cross the line with 1:44:?? on the clock.
Luverly jubbly. :thumbsup:
Think I'll go do a marathon next.

Well done. I could never bother about a marathon I have to say; it is hard enough to train for a fast half and getting in for a good marathon seemed a lot more difficult too. I would rather go run in the hills for something hard and long.
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #364 on: 08 March, 2010, 07:08:24 pm »

Excellent result - up in the first 25%  :thumbsup:

Which marathon then?


Well, almost in the top 25%

I'm not sure which marathon. I think I'll do some more running first. I was glad to finish the half and I'm only doing it for fun.

The Loch Ness looks good, but I want to have one done before then. Plus it'll cost me a fair bit of time and money to get there. Something along those lines though.
I might even just cycle up to Snowdonia or the Peak District, take a map and just go running for a day.

I'll wait for my blister to heal and my legs to feel better first though.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #365 on: 08 March, 2010, 09:25:06 pm »

Excellent result - up in the first 25%  :thumbsup:

Which marathon then?


Well, almost in the top 25%

Sorry, I should know better than attempt mental arithmetic  :-[  Top 27% which is a lot better than I manage, I celebrate extravagantly if I'm in the first half.

I'm not sure which marathon. I think I'll do some more running first. I was glad to finish the half and I'm only doing it for fun.

Frenchie's got a point that it's a lot of bother preparing for a marathon, even a slow one which is the best I'll ever manage.  I quite like the structure of having a plan though and building up the long runs even if they do hurt.  On the other hand I quite like getting on my bike and riding out to run a cheap, local, village 10k and I'm going to have to sacrifice that for a bit.  I do hope I continue enjoying the training as I've gone and entered Abingdon Marathon as well as the Neolithic so looks like I'll have to double peak this year (double peak = 2 small hills in my case).

If you've not found them yet there are race calenders and reviews at Runners World and at Fetch  (you have to sign up but don't have to pay).  Fetch is more a running community than a business and is also great for logging/planning training.

Roman Trail 10 miler at Chedworth for me in 2 weeks, loved it last year, friendly trail run with stream to splash through and a hill etc and 10 miles isn't very far at the moment.  Then the Compton 20 in April which is really hilly and I shall strugle round, it offers the option of switching to the 40 miler at the 19.5 mile point - I most definitely won't be doing that  :facepalm:
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Sigurd Mudtracker

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #366 on: 08 March, 2010, 09:32:20 pm »
I enjoy the marathon running experience but the training is a major turn-off for me.  And I like running, despite lurking on a cycling forum I run more miles per year than I ride (this year may be different, but because I'm riding a lot more in addition to my usual running).  All the long runs take up an enormous amount of time, not just the time doing them but the recovery afterwards.  Paradoxically, just going out and running on the hills for half a day seems far less onerous.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #367 on: 08 March, 2010, 09:48:31 pm »
I enjoy the marathon running experience but the training is a major turn-off for me.  And I like running, despite lurking on a cycling forum I run more miles per year than I ride (this year may be different, but because I'm riding a lot more in addition to my usual running).  All the long runs take up an enormous amount of time, not just the time doing them but the recovery afterwards.  Paradoxically, just going out and running on the hills for half a day seems far less onerous.

I think it makes quite a difference whether you are racing the marathon or just running it.  There seems to be an growing bunch of people just running marathons and ultras for the fun of it and not worrying about times much.  Sort of audax for runners.   Long Distance Walker Association events are apparently attracting increasing amounts of runners, the Neolithic Marathon makes a point on it's website about being a run and not a race (though you still get published times).  Still a long, long way for the likes of me though and if I'm honest about my one and only marathon to date that last few miles were neither a race nor fun!
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #368 on: 09 March, 2010, 10:04:22 am »
I did a few LDWA events back in the day, really enjoyed them.  The walkers didn't seem to mind the runners, and the courses were demanding without being too brutal.  Nearly all off-road, mixture of track and open fell, so not the repetitive pounding you get with road marathons and runnable all the way.

"What a long, strange trip it's been", Truckin'

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #369 on: 09 March, 2010, 10:07:59 am »
I've got no excuse for not going for a run this afternoon. Remembered to bring everything I need and have no meetings to get in the way.

33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #370 on: 09 March, 2010, 10:41:13 am »
I've got no excuse for not going for a run this afternoon. Remembered to bring everything I need and have no meetings to get in the way.

33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.

but think how much better you will feel afterwards  ;)
"What a long, strange trip it's been", Truckin'

border-rider

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #371 on: 09 March, 2010, 10:43:15 am »
Well, I deferred my bike ride because the forecast was a bit crap.  And it's a glorious, cloudless sunny day.

A lunchtime run in the woods & hills beckons :)

Chris S

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #372 on: 09 March, 2010, 10:45:02 am »
33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.

Is this the work gym?

If you're lucky, your treadmill overlooks the canteen where you can watch the tottie getting their lunch.

If you're unlucky, you'll be facing a blank wall, or worse still - an LCD TV showing corporate inspirational videos.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #373 on: 09 March, 2010, 10:52:40 am »
33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.

Is this the work gym?

If you're lucky, your treadmill overlooks the canteen where you can watch the tottie getting their lunch.

If you're unlucky, you'll be facing a blank wall, or worse still - an LCD TV showing corporate inspirational videos.

Blank wall. Someone took down the sign that said:-

PLEASE WIPE
DOWN MACHINE
AFTER USE

The work gym is a windowless room in the basement about 10m x 5m, without aircon (although that's getting put in at the end of this week along with new machines).

Tottie? This is IT!
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #374 on: 09 March, 2010, 12:16:28 pm »
I enjoy the marathon running experience but the training is a major turn-off for me.  And I like running, despite lurking on a cycling forum I run more miles per year than I ride (this year may be different, but because I'm riding a lot more in addition to my usual running).  All the long runs take up an enormous amount of time, not just the time doing them but the recovery afterwards.  Paradoxically, just going out and running on the hills for half a day seems far less onerous.

I think it makes quite a difference whether you are racing the marathon or just running it.  There seems to be an growing bunch of people just running marathons and ultras for the fun of it and not worrying about times much.  Sort of audax for runners.
<thinks ... > I've read a lot about marathon training. And I consider myself "above beginner" in the theory of 30hr+ bike rides. So inevitably I find myself joining the two together ...
There is no way that you need to ride further than a 100km as "training" for a 200km - you just need lots of training miles, then pace yourself on the day. Thousands of people have demonstrated this.

So I'm wondering whether, for those just wanting to finish a marathon, are those 16-20 mile Long Runs really necessary? Maybe you can do all the training on evenings and Sunday mornings, just like cyclists?


Of course there are differences between the 2 disciplines:
- runners often falter due to joint damage, which isn't (such) a big issue on the bike. (it's all about impact)
- I'm talking about longer duration events on the bike. Very few people could do a 24h continuous run.

Hmmm...
[There is no doubt that I am influenced by Mr Izzard's recent exploits, and we know how 1 anecdote != data ...]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles