Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 188068 times)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #300 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:03:26 am »
Sky are using training techniques that nobody else knows about and team staff and riders have their memories wiped clean when they move to other teams so that they can't take the techniques with them

What Sky have that other teams don't have is money. A fuck of a lot of money. They can sign up riders as domestiques  who would be leaders on other teams. Wout Poels and Mikel Landa have no business being Froome's lieutenants - they should be GC contenders in their own right.

There could be many reasons why some riders show a dip in performance when they leave Sky and join other teams, and not all of them are suspicious.

There are also plenty of cases of riders who have dipped or failed to improve when joining Sky (eg Nicolas Roche), and others who have improved after leaving Sky (eg Alex Dowsett). As with the climbing times, it's easy to pick and choose examples to support whatever argument you choose. None of it is proof of anything.

Tinkov have a pretty large budget too.

In 2012 when Wiggins won his Tour, Sky's budget wasn't the largest. There were at least two other teams with larger.

So, yes, you can pick and choose your examples.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #301 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:03:37 am »
I've love to be able to share around some of my pred so others can get a sense of what it'd feel like to be on a Froome "Romandie dose". You really know you are on it. Gawd knows how full on kenalog feels.

I've used my wife's salbutamol inhaler and even that weak-ass shit had pretty noticeable effects, albeit fairly short lived.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #302 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:06:32 am »
Even if you care about pro cycling and follow it more closely than TimC does, it doesn’t follow that you must think Sky are innocent because they’re British or innovative or whatever. I think they’re innocent because there hasn’t been a shred of evidence to the contrary. No other reason.

Lance Armstrong was innocent until 2012

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My support for Sky is really the support of rational thought and the rule of law over innuendo and unhinged ranting. I’m afraid I now read everything Flatus writes in the voice of his avatar.

I think we all know what it means when people resort to personal attack.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #303 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:08:28 am »
I've love to be able to share around some of my pred so others can get a sense of what it'd feel like to be on a Froome "Romandie dose". You really know you are on it. Gawd knows how full on kenalog feels.

http://www.stickybottle.com/blogs/medical-opinion-taking-corticosteroids-when-you-have-no-medical-need-to/

This is worth a read.


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #304 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:12:16 am »
I've love to be able to share around some of my pred so others can get a sense of what it'd feel like to be on a Froome "Romandie dose". You really know you are on it. Gawd knows how full on kenalog feels.

We have some emergency supply for the bairn's asthma. Should checkmate date really and see if it needs replacing. Would be an interesting experiment, but I'll probably just leave it. I can imagine wanting to feel stringer and faster all the time...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #305 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:18:10 am »
I've love to be able to share around some of my pred so others can get a sense of what it'd feel like to be on a Froome "Romandie dose". You really know you are on it. Gawd knows how full on kenalog feels.

http://www.stickybottle.com/blogs/medical-opinion-taking-corticosteroids-when-you-have-no-medical-need-to/

This is worth a read.
Yes, I've seen my peak flow jump 50l/min, and taken 2mins out of a 35m commute pb.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #306 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:35:41 am »
How's that for a marginal gain  ;D

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #307 on: 29 October, 2016, 11:37:35 am »
In 2012 when Wiggins won his Tour, Sky's budget wasn't the largest. There were at least two other teams with larger.

Just having the money doesn't guarantee success - BMC are perennial underachievers and it's not necessarily because they're cleaner than other teams. But that kind of money does give you a massive advantage over the majority of your rivals.

The question is really whether Wiggo's use of triamcinolone is what made the difference between him and Nibali in 2012. It's certainly possible.

There are plenty of other less dubious factors to take into account as well though. The course suited Wiggins, he had a stronger team around him, Contador was absent etc etc.

I don't think the evidence is conclusive either way. And I'm not only saying that because I'm a Sky fan boy. I feel much the same about Nibali's Tour win in 2014.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #308 on: 29 October, 2016, 01:14:07 pm »
You can rely on anecdata, and you can do all sorts of armchair calculations on uncontrolled situations. Ultimately the errors in the VAM calcualtions done from watching the telly are junk. The optimum way to ride up a reasonably constant gradient is constant(ish) power. Which is what Sky do, setting a pace. Look back at the Contador/Pantani era and you will see a very different style of riding - attack, recover, attack recover. Not the optimum for speed. Add to that the delays built in to telly coverage (yes 'live' is not always as live as you might think when you have multiple cameras covering different aspects of the same event).

The changes in training methods and investment in sports science in Sky are well documented - they do make a difference. They are very targeted and focused. If Froome needs to be able to attack at 110rpm on a climb, you can bet he has been doing that like crazy on Teide, it isn't something that is pulled out of the bag by chance. Wiggins can't do that. Different riding style so target his strengths.

Sky have taken the budget and spent it well, and many of the things they brought in (warm down after races etc.) were rapidly adopted by other teams and are still current practice.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #309 on: 29 October, 2016, 01:57:54 pm »
...is a regurgitation of Sky PR mantra.

It takes a leap of faith to believe it is true. I'm scratching my head to think of any seasoned observers who are prepared to make that leap. Even Walsh, who took the King's shilling, is backing out. Kimmage called bollocks on it. Foreign media call bollocks on it. Lemond calls bollocks on it. The British media lapped it up, happy to parade the British heroes beating Johnny Foreigner at their own game without resorting to the dirty tricks employed by swarthy faced Latins.

Hooray for British Fair Play!

Shame about the cortisone abuse though. Shame Skys turnaround success coincided with the employment of a doctor who is now banned for being at the centre of a team doping programne. Shame that all the talk about ztp, higher ethical standards, independent investigations, release of data etc turned out to be bollocks.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #310 on: 29 October, 2016, 03:26:27 pm »
(I do understand that it's outside your personal ethics code - and I can understand why - but the rules aren't based on that.)

So, you're perfectly ok that they pretended to have a severe medical iisue and prescribed him a drug that he did not need, so that he could gain a significant advantage over his fellow competitors?..because it was 'within the rules'?


I am. Because the rules are the only criteria against which they may be judged. And they were within the rules.

Heh. Pretty darn sure you wouldn't be if it was non-Sky team did the same thing.
Unfortunately I am NOT perfectly OK with it. Clearly it is a tactic that goes beyond the spirit of the rules - you will probably find rants from me about such things in other sports, especially where my favourite loses! It looks like the rules need improving, and I believe the TUE rules already have been. The MPCC suggestions also look like a good idea.

But - as Flatus is so keen to point out - there ARE grey areas in sport. I wish I had a hero on the Pro-tour who was challenging for big wins with squeaky clean ethics. Oh poor me. In the absence of such a Paladin,  I am a Wiggo fan until there is sufficient evidence of real cheating to persuade me*. (I might even be persuaded if sufficient "ethical" misdeeds are exposed - they are unknown unknowns. )

Do please note - I am not a "Sky fan boy"; I am aware of some bike racing pre-2012 - I grew up in a house called Anquetil FFS!!! I can't stand Murdoch and would rather Wiggo had struggled for wins without all that particular money. OK??



* Incidentally, I believed in Armstrong until the evidence was dug up and he was rightfully nicked. I wouldnt say I was a "fan" though - his persona didn't much appeal to me. But his life made a great story - at least the version in his book did!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #311 on: 29 October, 2016, 03:49:44 pm »
I never believed in the Armstrong miracle. I admit that I thought Sky were better than that though. Most of the supposed evidence is specious nonsense but they do have a case to answer over their use of medications and TUEs, and Wiggins' barefaced lies about needle use.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #312 on: 29 October, 2016, 04:32:20 pm »
...is a regurgitation of Sky PR mantra.

No it isn't. It takes a dispassionate view of what they have actually done with the application of sports science. Sky did come in without baggage and brought in folk like Tim Kerrison, a top sports scientist from outside the 'traditional'  realm. Hence a sudden performance gap with the Sky train and mode of riding in the hills. Guess what? Other teams notice and follow the same process, e.g. Movistar, Astana and so on. If you have the money to afford the research, the riders and the training investment you can do the same thing.

It was a case of "you can't apply knowledge from swimming to cycling". "Oh, maybe you can".

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It takes a leap of faith to believe it is true. I'm scratching my head to think of any seasoned observers who are prepared to make that leap. Even Walsh, who took the King's shilling, is backing out. Kimmage called bollocks on it. Foreign media call bollocks on it. Lemond calls bollocks on it. The British media lapped it up, happy to parade the British heroes beating Johnny Foreigner at their own game without resorting to the dirty tricks employed by swarthy faced Latins.
Most of that is anti-jingoistic rubbish. Look at the science and what is going on. Sure there are some laughable things and some not so laughable. Mattresses etc. A very strong control of nutrition (did other teams have their own chef and kitchen truck before Sky set that as a benchmark?)


Quote

Shame about the cortisone abuse though. Shame Skys turnaround success coincided with the employment of a doctor who is now banned for being at the centre of a team doping programne. Shame that all the talk about ztp, higher ethical standards, independent investigations, release of data etc turned out to be bollocks.

Leinders was specifically employed for his knowledge of dehydration and recovery in competition. Allegedly. A mistake in the signing there. As for cortisone abuse? I've not seen the medical records. I think it is tipping the playing field back the wrong way. Treatment for post race recovery or a specific allergy is fine, but something like that should be a TUE and excluded from competition for the riders health.

Abuse is a strong word, and your rather rabid anti-Sky frothing is not really helping the case.

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #313 on: 29 October, 2016, 04:53:27 pm »
How do you know what Leinders was specifically employed for?

Oh, because Brailsford told you.....after Leinders was revealed as a doping mastermind. 

Sorry, David, you are accepting what Brailsford says on face value.  That's a shame, as he is at best 'inconsistent' in his recollections of what he knew or didn't know at any given moment.

Brailsford, the master of small details, determined to run a team purer than anyone else, didn't know what his own DS knew about Leinders, nor what was actually already in the public domain. Nor, he claims, did he have any idea that Wiggins choice of steroid was performance enhancing.

It's literally unbelievable.

"Rabid anti-Sky frothing", "unhinged ranting", "slander", "closed mind" "keyboard warrior".....lots of personal attack from people who claim to be neither very interested in Sky, nor subject to the forces of unthinking patriotism.


Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #314 on: 29 October, 2016, 06:47:12 pm »
Well, I don't care. I'm about to see Sir Wiggo perform on the track for nearly the last time.

Plus you can see lots of football and cricket on Sky.

What's not to like.
It is simpler than it looks.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #315 on: 29 October, 2016, 07:27:40 pm »
Flatus,
It is far too late to moan about personal slights. Very early in the thread we find this:

Of course, there will always be those who have a Pavlovian response to a British flag.

Not that 2 wrongs make a right, but, you know - Just Saying ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #316 on: 29 October, 2016, 09:04:39 pm »
Flatus,
It is far too late to moan about personal slights. Very early in the thread we find this:

Of course, there will always be those who have a Pavlovian response to a British flag.

Not that 2 wrongs make a right, but, you know - Just Saying ...

It's a fair cop.  Flags bring me out in a rash.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #317 on: 29 October, 2016, 09:37:44 pm »
You've built a picture of what is going on in your own mind and are twisting everything to fit. It is a classical conspiracy theory approach.

Everyone who tells you something contrary to your belief is either part of the conspiracy or deluded.

Information that contradicts your pet theory is ignored.
 
You have built up a picture of Brailsford being an infallible master of management.  He is of course the ultimate micromanager down to whether or not brazillians are performance enhancing and has a detailed knowledge of every riders medical records and discussion with their doctors. Every decision goes through his hands at all times. So if something does happen it has to be his deliberate decision.

You have decided that cycling has somehow reached perfection with sports science and therefore any improvement Sky make has to be via illicit means.

You chose opinions that support your preconceived notions without much critical assessment as to the validity of those opinions.

Classic conspiracy theorist or clinic inhabitant. 

Leinders. A doctor who allegedly provided doping products in other teams. Employed on a small number of races allegedly due to his experience with rider recovery/dehydration. But of course that isn't the case and Brailsford the mastermind would employ deliberately a known doper expecting the rest of the world to not notice? Occams razor applies. You of course have some special insight.

As has been stated before, facts, not ungrounded allegations based on circumstantial incidents twisted to fit a preconceived agenda.



Quote from: Flatus link=topic=99572.msg2096217#msg2096217
date=1477756407
How do you know what Leinders was specifically employed for?

Oh, because Brailsford told you.....after Leinders was revealed as a doping mastermind. 

Sorry, David, you are accepting what Brailsford says on face value.  That's a shame, as he is at best 'inconsistent' in his recollections of what he knew or didn't know at any given moment.

Brailsford, the master of small details, determined to run a team purer than anyone else, didn't know what his own DS knew about Leinders, nor what was actually already in the public domain. Nor, he claims, did he have any idea that Wiggins choice of steroid was performance enhancing.

It's literally unbelievable.

"Rabid anti-Sky frothing", "unhinged ranting", "slander", "closed mind" "keyboard warrior".....lots of personal attack from people who claim to be neither very interested in Sky, nor subject to the forces of unthinking patriotism.


"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #318 on: 29 October, 2016, 09:46:00 pm »
Who do think you are, Hannibal Lector?

Do you really think I think you, Sam D, Tim C, Mattc are part of a conspiracy?

Don't be an over-dramatic dick, David.

You've done nothing but quote back Brailsford's words at me,  with complete and uncritical acceptance.

Impressive work, David. Well done.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #319 on: 29 October, 2016, 09:52:01 pm »
Employing a known doping doctor (and Leinders was known as a doping doctor before Sky hired him) is a massive fail for a team that investigates all of the angles and wants a squeaky-clean reputation.

Unusual variations in rider performance in the last decade or so reasonably correlates with the movements of various doctors between teams.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #320 on: 29 October, 2016, 09:57:33 pm »
No I haven't. I've used words from Walsh, and from what has been published about the changes in training methods, and a bit of old fashioned scientific logic.

I'm not uncritically reciting Brailsfords words, nor am I uncritically gathering circumstantial 'evidence' and claiming something close to a smoking gun, whilst ignoring equally plausible explanations that would actually make more sense.

It gets wearisome, this nudge, nudge wink wink. What is clear is that, like in every significant organisation, Brailsford isn't an infallible mastermind. He doesn't know everything going on in the organisation. And sometimes that facade slips. Doesn't mean it is something sinister going on, doesn't mean it isn't.

I have followed what I can on the science behind Sky's approach and how it differs from previous practice. What you can see is the other teams playing catch up (much like F1 tech changes where one team makes a breakthrough and the others follow suit, but for a period they have an advantage).

FWIW I thing that TUE's should exempt from sanctions, but those taking them should also be excluded from competition.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #321 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:00:56 pm »
I'm more interested in Heiko Salzwedel.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #322 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:04:07 pm »
Yes. I did some of my coaching classes with Heiko when he first went to Oz, straight from East Germany.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #323 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:05:31 pm »
Employing a known doping doctor (and Leinders was known as a doping doctor before Sky hired him) is a massive fail for a team that investigates all of the angles and wants a squeaky-clean reputation.
So what possible explanation is there other than a screw up with Sky? If they were going to dope they'd be far better than that, surely. It seems to be a very silly thing to do for such an amazing criminal mastermind.

Quote
Unusual variations in rider performance in the last decade or so reasonably correlates with the movements of various doctors between teams.
Again, circumstantial evidence being interpreted to fit a preconceived model. Not saying it doesn't happen, but looking for a higher standard of proof than allegation and rumour.

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #324 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:08:30 pm »
I don't care. Wiggo and Cav won the Madison  :thumbsup:
It is simpler than it looks.