Sky - gaming the system?

[Hot Flatus]

The story gets more and more bizarre.



To recap, AIUI Brailsford now says he had been...ahem...cough...mistaken about where Cope went with the package (saying he was going to see Emma Pooley 600 miles away, which she then refuted) and then denying that the contents of the package were administered to Wiggins in the back of the team bus at the end of a race on the grounds that Wiggins had already left (proven false by a pesky youtube clip). He says that the Fluimicil was just dropped off as it was the easiest way to get it there.

Here is how easy it was. Cope booked a return train ticket from Eastbourne to Manchester on June 10, and his credit card bill is annotated with 'Dauphiné', thereby showing that the planned train journey to Manchester was linked to his trip out to the Dauphiné. He made the journey, collected the package then stayed in an airport hotel at Gatwick on June 11 before flying the next day to Geneva where he picked up a hire car and drove a round trip of 4.5 hours and 350km to La Toussière, delivered the package and then flew back to Gatwick. The total cost of the trip was £596.

This is very odd. There are 4 pharmacies in La Toussiere where Fluimucil can be purchased without prescription for €8.  Why spend £600?

More to the point, why identify a need for Fluimucil during a race, and then take nearly 5 days to deliver it when it could have been purchased on the spot from a pharmacy?

Remember too, that Cope says he did not know the contents of the package, despite taking the package on an international flight, and crossing two borders with it.

By the way, in other news, Wiggins announced his retirement yesterday.

[mattc]

By the way, in other news, Wiggins announced his retirement yesterday.

Yes, I had heard!


The Today programme made great efforts to keep the 2 stories apart this morning. They gave some BC guy a gentle grilling about the drugs investigation.

Half an hour earlier they had a standard piece about a succesful GB athlete retiring, and interviewed Rob Hayles*. They asked him if the current drugs ...er "controversy" would taint Wiggo's reputation:
"No, not with cycling fans, not at all."
I think that was less than truthful!




*I think?!?

[Hot Flatus]

I find it odd that Wiggins didnt wait until the UKAD and the Parliamentary investigations were concluded, and he was exonerated, before announcing his retirement. It would have avoided the inevitable cloud over his retirement announcement.

Did you see the BBC news broadcast where they interviewd National TT Champion and Cycling Weekly writer Dr Michael Hutchinson? He gave a very measured response to the same question along the lines that for most people Wiggins would remain untainted, but for those close to cycling there remains a big question mark.

By this I understand him to mean that those on the inside and those speaking from an informed position, including himself, do not accept what Sky are saying at face value with regards to TUE use and the mystery package story.

[Nuncio]

More to the point, why identify a need for Fluimucil during a race, and then take nearly 5 days to deliver it when it could have been purchased on the spot from a pharmacy?

Simple misunderstanding.

SirBW: I need Fluimicil and I need it quick.
SirDB:  Cope, get SBW some Fluimicil.  He needs it in a in a jiffy
Simon Cope: Will do.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'd have thought those on the inside would be looking at the mystery package story and reviewing their use of couriers. There but for the grace of WADA.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

http://bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/38457434

British lawers seem to require every story to end with "...there is no suggestion either he or Team Sky have broken any rules."

[mattc]

http://bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/38457434

British lawers seem to require every story to end with "...there is no suggestion either he or Team Sky have broken any rules."

Have you perhaps thought about why that might be?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The UK's defamation laws are renowned for being amongst the most onerous in the Western world. That is why they are used by foreign folk to attack remarks made/ books published outside of the UK.

Isn't it interesting that Brailsford's assurances that proof of the package's contents would be provided have come to naught?

[sg37409]

Isn't it interesting that Brailsford's assurances that proof of the package's contents would be provided have come to naught?

... so far.  There was a suggestion on R4 this morn that he may have given details to UKADA. I find it doubtful tbh.

I find it odd that Wiggins didnt wait until the UKAD and the Parliamentary investigations were concluded, and he was exonerated, before announcing his retirement. It would have avoided the inevitable cloud over his retirement announcement.

Maybe he realised that if he retires now, he will still avoid the doubt amongst most.   The way it looks just now, the longer he holds on the worse this looks.

[Hot Flatus]

Slightly different tack, but Nicole Cooke puts the boot in....

Nicole Cooke: Team Sky and British Cycling provide more questions than answers

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/dec/29/nicole-cooke-team-sky-british-cycling?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[Jakob]

Nicole Cooke has a few choice words, although mostly aimed at Sutton/BC

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/dec/29/nicole-cooke-team-sky-british-cycling

[αdαmsκι]

The story gets more and more bizarre.....

Got the second page?


The story doesn't add up at all IMO. Maybe there's a decent explainable but it all seems fishy.

Firstly there's been an attempt to cover up the story. In a number of ways. Why?

When someone explained what was inside the jiffy bag it turns out to be Fluimicil (well that's the suggestion...). Fine, but why spend a decent chunk of cash on getting Cope to carry the medicine across Europe when it could've been purchased a few kilometres away?

Why not tell Cope what was inside the jiffy?

Why was Cope travelling across Europe in the first place when someone else could have done the job? Or just pay a courrier service?

And why the sudden need for this drug at the end of race?

[Hot Flatus]

There were several steps in the attempted cover-up. First try and persuade the Mail not to run the story....why? What a weird thing for a transparent team to do. Why didnt Brailsford just stall and find out what was in the package if hd didnt know.

Then, on publication of the story, despite having time to investigate properly (ask Cope, ask Freeman...two texts)give out two false pieces of information. Not just irrelevant information but untrue information.

Then appear in front of a select committee months later and do such a bad job that the MPs are just left with further questions.

I think there are several likely possibilities and not one of them revolves àround Brailsford telling the truth.  I think he knew all along what the substance was, but I dont think he knows how much the Mail knew.

[Jakob]

I'm fairly confident that it didn't contain Fluimicil. If that was the case, they could have killed this story the moment it surfaced.

[madcow]

I find it odd that Wiggins didnt wait until the UKAD and the Parliamentary investigations were concluded, and he was exonerated, before announcing his retirement. It would have avoided the inevitable cloud over his retirement announcement.

OTOH ,if Wiggo had announced his retirement either at  Ghent or immediately afterwards, then everyone would have said it was the right time to go.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've been reading a book called Inverting the Pyramid. It's about the history of football tactics and it's fascinating even for someone with only a mild interest in football. It only mentions cycling twice (the other mention is about someone using an early form of exercise bike for endurance training) but not surprisingly it talks about drugs a bit:

Salo Muller, who was Ajax's masseur between 1959 and 1972, admitted as much in his autobiography, published in 2006, and revealed that Hulshoff and Johnny Rep had both come to him with concerns over pills given them by John Rollink, the club doctor. ... 'They ranged from painkillers, muscle relaxants and tranquilising pills to amphetamine capsules.'

The first drugs scandal to hit Dutch sport came at the 1960 Rome Olympics [in swimming] ... Rollink later left the Dutch Cycling Union when doping controls were instituted, and said that Ajax would have refused to comply had doping controls been brought in to Dutch football.

Other sides linked to PED use in the book include the successful Milan and Inter teams in the 1960s and 70s, against whom there are also allegations of referee bribing. In this case, their pharmacological assistance, the referee bribing and their ultra-defensive style of play are all linked in their belief that Italians were physically smaller and weaker than Northern Europeans and so needed other means to succeed. Similarly, Britain is traditionally a weak cycling nation, with no tradition, no great champions, not even a Grand Tour. In a sport where drug use is probably even more embedded than in football, how else are we to compete?

[Veloman]

^^^^^

Are we to assume that BC is tainted with the drug culture, otherwise how do we explain the rise from what you describe as no tradition, champions etc, then the likes of Laura and Jason Kenny are also on the PED treadmill?

Or perhaps they got their rewards by hard work, better facilities with good support and dedication to the sport. Not such an interesting story perhaps, although their book gives an insight to what it takes.

My challenge is that too many cyclists have achieved greatness in terms of medals etc and if that was achieved by PED the story would have been spilled by now as there are too many folk involved.

[citoyen]

BC's success from the late 90s onwards is principally down to a combination of two factors: lottery money and Peter Keen. Keen was the one who identified the need for a structured program to identify and develop potential winners - until then, any Brit who enjoyed success in cycling got there largely under their own steam, usually by moving to France. Chris Boardman's success at the 92 Olympics also helped as a catalyst to generate interest in the sport. The lottery money came because cycling was identified as a sport with potential for big returns on the investment, with lots of medals available at the Olympics.

I have total faith in Peter Keen and Chris Boardman and their methods. Chris Hoy was the first major success of the program and there has never been a hint of doubt about him either.

It's only since Brailsford took over from Peter Keen that doubts have started to creep in, a lot of which is down to the close association between the national body and a commercially sponsored pro road team - something that Keen expressed concern about even before Team Sky was established. Add to that Brailsford's combination of hubris and incompetence when it comes to dealing with the media and it's no surprise that people are starting to feel jaded towards cycling.

[Hot Flatus]

Loving the attempt to extrapolate Wiggins doping to win a Tour de France to every single British person on two wheels who has had some success.  . Its a sort of inverse reductio ad absurdam.

Fact is, Wiggins doping to win the Tour has no bearing on, or says nothing about, any other British cyclist, road, track, bmx or whatever. Wiggins doping can be considered on its own merits without recourse to attempts to infer that if Wiggins doped so must have the entire GB track team for over a decade. (Which of course is much harder to accept than the possibility of only one person doping.  )

Which is probably just as well, seeing that we now know Wiggins took PEDS to win the Tour 

[Cudzoziemiec]

That's not quite what I meant, but the existence of British success in the 90s also relates to the football example; at the time Milan were indulging in their (alleged) skulduggery, which was apparently motivated at least in part by a feeling of Mediterranean weakness, the only teams to have won the European Cup were from Italy, Spain and Portugal. As is the change in BC between Keen and Brailsford; Milan's manager at the time, Helenio Herrera, who was originally from Argentina, was surrounded by the same suspicions when he was at Barcelona in the late 50s. At all of his clubs the players were routinely given "il cafe Herrera". It's said he experimented with the drugs on the reserve players before giving them to the first team, as well as taking amphetamines himself when he had to work late.

[Hot Flatus]

My post wasnt reacting to yours, it was an analysis of Veloman's increasingly desperate attempts to avoid the reality of what went on in France in 2012.

Of course, Veloman's final point is actually wrong. Somebody has spilled the beans, which is why we know about the 'package' delivery to Wiggins at the Dauphiné.

Whilst we are on the subject of the package, the journalist at the centre of the exposé has said that he knows the contents of the package but cannot reveal the contents for legal reasons. Of course, the implication of this is that it isnt Fluimicil. Then again, if we accept as true that Brailsford tried to beg and bribe his way out the the story being released we can reasonably assume that the contents of the package were not an over the counter decongestant.

[drgannet]

Whilst we are on the subject of the package, the journalist at the centre of the exposé has said that he knows the contents of the package but cannot reveal the contents for legal reasons.

I'll look forward to reading about that in the UKAD report then.

[αdαmsκι]

the journalist at the centre of the exposé has said that he knows the contents of the package but cannot reveal the contents for legal reasons. Of course, the implication of this is that it isnt Fluimicil.

How did you come across that bit of information?

[Hot Flatus]

He was interviewed on Australian radio.

[Cudzoziemiec]

My post wasnt reacting to yours, it was an analysis of Veloman's increasingly desperate attempts to avoid the reality of what went on in France in 2012.

Of course, Veloman's final point is actually wrong. Somebody has spilled the beans, which is why we know about the 'package' delivery to Wiggins at the Dauphiné.

Whilst we are on the subject of the package, the journalist at the centre of the exposé has said that he knows the contents of the package but cannot reveal the contents for legal reasons. Of course, the implication of this is that it isnt Fluimicil. Then again, if we accept as true that Brailsford tried to beg and bribe his way out the the story being released we can reasonably assume that the contents of the package were not an over the counter decongestant.

Ah, fair enough. I hadn't actually seen Veloman's post at that point. I'll stop trying to make sense of it now!