Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 188061 times)

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #725 on: 21 March, 2017, 10:48:01 pm »
Well, technically the rules were followed, you disagree wiht the officials interpretation of the rules. The officials and medics who had access to Wiggins medical history chose to interprete the rules differently.

Cycling has a history of flexible boundaries. Sky pushed but did not cross (in that the requests were approved). I share the distaste for that particular choice of therapy from what little I know as a non-medic (I should have a chat with my learned friends at the medical school).

My personal view is that a TUE should exempt from OOC testing and if you need a TUE then you are unfit to race.  End of.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #726 on: 21 March, 2017, 10:51:13 pm »
Well, technically the rules were followed, you disagree wiht the officials interpretation of the rules. The officials and medics who had access to Wiggins medical history chose to interprete the rules differently.

And why did they do that? Has anyone asked Zorzoli why he signed off on that TUE?.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #727 on: 22 March, 2017, 04:46:47 am »
My personal view is that a TUE should exempt from OOC testing and if you need a TUE then you are unfit to race.  End of.

Generally sympathetic to this point of view, but does that mean you'd not allow diabetics or haemophiliacs to ride professionally? Both groups need in-competition TUEs.
Eddington Number = 132

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #728 on: 22 March, 2017, 04:51:39 am »
My personal view is that a TUE should exempt from OOC testing and if you need a TUE then you are unfit to race.  End of.

Generally sympathetic to this point of view, but does that mean you'd not allow diabetics or haemophiliacs to ride professionally? Both groups need in-competition TUEs.

I wouldn't. If you need drugs that can be abused for competitive advantage, then no, you should not be allowed to compete.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #729 on: 22 March, 2017, 07:16:15 am »
Sky must join anti-doping group to silence doubters, says president

Surely Roger Legeay has his own credibility issues to worry about.

That would depend on whether you think that MPCC is some sort of sop to anti-doping. I think a certain element of pragmatism is needed here which is why Legeay 's own positive for amphetamine, nor O'Grady's admission of doping whilst on Legeay's team (and Legeay's rather unlikely claim to have been unaware) should not be used to beat the MPCC over the head, although in the case of O'Grady it is true that Legeay's response damaged the MPCC.

The mere fact of Lampre's resignation from the MPCC, or rather the real reason why they did it, shows you that the MPCC has an impact.

 
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Sky aren't members of the Tufty Club either, which clearly suggests a wanton disregard for the safety of children crossing the road. The callous bastards.

Not quite sure what you point you are making good here. I find Sky's stated reason for not joining the MPCC to be wholly incredible. It's clear that a team determined to be cleaner than the rest would have nothing to lose by joining.

An unethical team could lose a Tour victory.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #730 on: 22 March, 2017, 08:48:20 am »
The mere fact of Lampre's resignation from the MPCC, or rather the real reason why they did it, shows you that the MPCC has an impact.

I'd say the opposite - they pulled out of the MPCC but carried on racing, which suggests that the MPCC has no impact at all. And they refused to fire their rider because Italian labour laws trump the MPCC's voluntary self-regulation.

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Sky aren't members of the Tufty Club either, which clearly suggests a wanton disregard for the safety of children crossing the road. The callous bastards.

Not quite sure what you point you are making good here.

Anyone can set up a club with lofty ideals and then criticise anyone who doesn't want to join the club.

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I find Sky's stated reason for not joining the MPCC to be wholly incredible.

I find Sky's reasons for not joining the MPCC to be totally irrelevant. Only 8 out of 18 WT teams are members. Is that evidence that those other 10 teams all have something to hide?

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It's clear that a team determined to be cleaner than the rest would have nothing to lose by joining.

I'd look at it another way. I would say that a team that was involved in doping would have a lot to gain by joining the MPCC - indeed, Legeay himself said as much when he described Katusha, Lampre and Astana's decision to join the MPCC as opportunism.

I applaud the MPCC's lofty ideals, and it's great that some of their ideas have been adopted by the UCI and made official, but ultimately the MPCC is little more than a talking shop, and Sky's non-membership is a massive red herring.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #731 on: 22 March, 2017, 08:55:25 am »
That would depend on whether you think that MPCC is some sort of sop to anti-doping.

Perhaps I'm just a bit jaded - we've seen it all before, eg in 1998 when teams all signed bits of paper promising us that we were entering a new era of clean cycling.

And tbh, I find your faith in the MPCC a little surprising - I would have expected you to be more cynical. But maybe you're right - maybe the need for pragmatism overrides the natural inclination towards cynicism.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #732 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:03:32 am »
My personal view is that a TUE should exempt from OOC testing and if you need a TUE then you are unfit to race.  End of.

Generally sympathetic to this point of view, but does that mean you'd not allow diabetics or haemophiliacs to ride professionally? Both groups need in-competition TUEs.

I wouldn't. If you need drugs that can be abused for competitive advantage, then no, you should not be allowed to compete.
I think there ought to be some sort of allowance for long term/lifelong conditions. I also think you'd be on very dodgy legal discrimination grounds if you were to take away the livelihood of people based purely on a medical condition they have.
Off topic - as a (non competitive) member of BC, does that mean I need a TUE for my thyroxine?
Cheers
Duncan

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #733 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:08:56 am »
I also think you'd be on very dodgy legal discrimination grounds if you were to take away the livelihood of people based purely on a medical condition they have.

Quite. It's always going to be a tricky area to regulate but the real problem in Sky's case is that it seems the people responsible for enforcing the regulations were complicit in helping them abuse the system.

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Off topic - as a (non competitive) member of BC, does that mean I need a TUE for my thyroxine?

The clue is in the words 'non competitive'.

I think the only likely scenario where you would need to apply for a TUE would be if you entered a Gran Fondo such as the Tour of Cambridgeshire in the racing category and expected to be placed high enough to qualify for the amateur World Championships.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

benborp

  • benbravoorpapa
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #734 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:40:54 am »
I think the only likely scenario where you would need to apply for a TUE would be if you entered a Gran Fondo such as the Tour of Cambridgeshire in the racing category and expected to be placed high enough to qualify for the amateur World Championships.

I believe as an amateur, in those circumstances it is only necessary to apply for a TUE retroactively if required. I think you have five days grace. I have a condition that means I would fall foul of the UCI no needle rule even though the substance is not a PED. Without clear NICE guidelines on the required treatment for my condition I would have to shop around for a doctor that would agree that my treatment was necessary. 90% of GPs wouldn't. I don't race anymore.
A world of bedlam trapped inside a small cyclist.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #735 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:45:31 am »
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Off topic - as a (non competitive) member of BC, does that mean I need a TUE for my thyroxine?

The clue is in the words 'non competitive'.
I think the only likely scenario where you would need to apply for a TUE would be if you entered a Gran Fondo such as the Tour of Cambridgeshire in the racing category and expected to be placed high enough to qualify for the amateur World Championships.
This guy took part in no competitions, but got a 4 year ban for taking PEDs:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/another-british-amateur-cyclist-banned-anti-doping-offences-297031
Obviously his case is a bit different to taking medically required banned drugs, but it is interesting he got tested out of competition having never entered one...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #736 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:57:24 am »
Obviously his case is a bit different to taking medically required banned drugs, but it is interesting he got tested out of competition having never entered one...

The only reason the anti-doping authorities were interested in him was because he was attempting to import controlled substances. And the ban was in fact for refusing to take the test.

Also note that the ban only applies to competitive events - he can still ride sportives, audaxes etc.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #737 on: 22 March, 2017, 10:40:52 am »
Quote
Quote
Sky aren't members of the Tufty Club either, which clearly suggests a wanton disregard for the safety of children crossing the road. The callous bastards.

Not quite sure what you point you are making good here.

Anyone can set up a club with lofty ideals and then criticise anyone who doesn't want to join the club.

Quite.  This is another version of "You can only be a good person if you join our gang".  It's an implicit threat with more than a whiff of the school playground.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #738 on: 22 March, 2017, 10:50:20 am »
That would depend on whether you think that MPCC is some sort of sop to anti-doping.

Perhaps I'm just a bit jaded - we've seen it all before, eg in 1998 when teams all signed bits of paper promising us that we were entering a new era of clean cycling.

And tbh, I find your faith in the MPCC a little surprising - I would have expected you to be more cynical. But maybe you're right - maybe the need for pragmatism overrides the natural inclination towards cynicism.

I've quoted this post rather than your lengthy one to save space.

Of course the MPCC is a talking shop, and of course it is toothless. The key point is that it had several aims, one of which was to stop the abuse of TUES and cortisone.  We now know that Wiggins massively abused the TUE system and Cortisone to win races. Had Sky joined the MPCC they would not have been able to do so. I'm amazed you aren't seeing this. It is not a red herring at all because it puts Sky's promises to be cleaner than clean into perspective.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #739 on: 22 March, 2017, 11:17:14 am »
Obviously his case is a bit different to taking medically required banned drugs, but it is interesting he got tested out of competition having never entered one...

The only reason the anti-doping authorities were interested in him was because he was attempting to import controlled substances. And the ban was in fact for refusing to take the test.

Also note that the ban only applies to competitive events - he can still ride sportives, audaxes etc.
He doesn't ride competitive events but he feels the need for PEDs. Why? Does it really make sense to demand professional athletes compete without them when people are using them on (I'm reliably informed by people who've done these events) LEL and PBP?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #740 on: 22 March, 2017, 11:39:46 am »
Because PBP and LEL aren't actually races and aren't worth money to riders, sponsors, etc?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #741 on: 22 March, 2017, 11:47:51 am »
Obviously his case is a bit different to taking medically required banned drugs, but it is interesting he got tested out of competition having never entered one...

The only reason the anti-doping authorities were interested in him was because he was attempting to import controlled substances. And the ban was in fact for refusing to take the test.

Also note that the ban only applies to competitive events - he can still ride sportives, audaxes etc.
He doesn't ride competitive events but he feels the need for PEDs. Why? Does it really make sense to demand professional athletes compete without them when people are using them on (I'm reliably informed by people who've done these events) LEL and PBP?

I presume his name registered because he's a British Cycling member, so holds some kind of licence.  I know of amateur TTers who dope, and there were a couple recently caught and banned since CTT started more regular testing. 

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #742 on: 22 March, 2017, 12:09:32 pm »
Obviously his case is a bit different to taking medically required banned drugs, but it is interesting he got tested out of competition having never entered one...

The only reason the anti-doping authorities were interested in him was because he was attempting to import controlled substances. And the ban was in fact for refusing to take the test.

Also note that the ban only applies to competitive events - he can still ride sportives, audaxes etc.
He doesn't ride competitive events but he feels the need for PEDs. Why? Does it really make sense to demand professional athletes compete without them when people are using them on (I'm reliably informed by people who've done these events) LEL and PBP?

I presume his name registered because he's a British Cycling member, so holds some kind of licence.  I know of amateur TTers who dope, and there were a couple recently caught and banned since CTT started more regular testing.
So if my club organises a TT and I want to ride for the lolz (as I hear the young people say!) it I need a TUE? I guess I should ask the club person responsible...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #743 on: 22 March, 2017, 12:19:02 pm »
Had Sky joined the MPCC they would not have been able to do so.

From what I've seen, other teams who are (or have been) members of the MPCC seem to pick and choose which of its rules they follow.

I'm afraid I remain unconvinced that the MPCC's pronouncements on Sky are anything other than a distraction. But, you know, YMMV and all that.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #744 on: 22 March, 2017, 12:22:39 pm »

So if my club organises a TT and I want to ride for the lolz (as I hear the young people say!) it I need a TUE? I guess I should ask the club person responsible...

This very amateur TTer has ridden events where there has been testing.  They haven't yet picked on me.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #745 on: 22 March, 2017, 12:26:35 pm »
Because PBP and LEL aren't actually races and aren't worth money to riders, sponsors, etc?
But how does that make sense and why did it come about in, according to what you said earlier, the mid 1960s? It's as if moving away from the Corinthian or Olympian ideal in one area necessitated a compensatory reinforcement in others.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

simonp

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #746 on: 22 March, 2017, 12:33:52 pm »
PBP allegedly has testing. Never seen it happen, but I have never been far away from the back of the field.

I had to throw away the medicine I'd bought in France the previous year (for a sore throat) and buy something much less effective.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #747 on: 22 March, 2017, 12:39:19 pm »
Dope bans and testing came in because people died (Simpson for one). People are allowed to make decisions that adversely affect their health but being competitive against doped riders virtually requires that choice to be made.

PBP and LEL aren't races and aren't worth money, so you don't need to dope to compete against other PBPers. If you choose to, it is only for your own reasons.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #748 on: 22 March, 2017, 01:00:15 pm »
Yeah, keeping people alive seems a good reason! Unfortunately it seems it doesn't always work.  :(
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #749 on: 22 March, 2017, 02:30:00 pm »
Yeah, keeping people alive seems a good reason! Unfortunately it seems it doesn't always work.  :(


There are numerous surveys of track and field athletes that lead to some quite alarming conclusions. In one, something like half or more of those surveyed said they would take a substance that was:

A. Undetectable
B. Would guarantee a (Olympic) gold medal
C. Would (significantly) shorten their life expectancy

I don't think for one second that track and field athletes are any different to those in other sports. Indeed the financial rewards are far greater and the lack of effective testing more obvious outside of athletics.

Another anonymous survey, again reproduced on more than one occasion, suggests that between 25% and 45% of athletes will admit to illegal doping. I suspect there is some reluctance to admit even in an anonymous survey, so these numbers probably understate the prevalence.

It would seem that individuals are making, or having to make, the choices in any case. That does change the nature of sport from one of competition on the field to one of risk acceptance and genetic response to doping approaches. It doesn't necessarily harm the spectacle of course.