Sky - gaming the system?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I believe the rules for the pros should be 'No TUE' ever. If the required medical treatment is performance enhancing, they don't race at all. Low level racing may well allow TUEs as currently. You will still get folk (pros or otherwise) trying to dope, even with no money at stake.

[DuncanM]

DuncanM, I'm sure we all understand that there are people such as yourself and your daughter who have genuine long-term conditions that require medication, and those people are who the TUE system is designed for - eg Alex Dowsett has a needle exemption because of his haemophilia and AIUI requires hormone therapy to prevent potentially fatal bleeding in a crash.
But that's not what's being discussed here. Dowsett is not the one under suspicion.

I believe the rules for the pros should be 'No TUE' ever. If the required medical treatment is performance enhancing, they don't race at all. Low level racing may well allow TUEs as currently. You will still get folk (pros or otherwise) trying to dope, even with no money at stake.

You want to ban all haemophiliacs from pro cycling (or, if this is at the Wada level, all pro sport)? Should thyroxine be decided to be performance enhancing, you would just ban all hypothyroid people from pro sport? And if WADA decide that other medical products that individuals need are actually performance enhancing then you would happily ban them too.
After banning all those people who have done nothing wrong, you agree it won't stop the professionals from doping. What's the point?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Because it stops the edge cases (e.g. Wiggo's TUEs) that have brought us to this point in the thread.

[DuncanM]

Because it stops the edge cases (e.g. Wiggo's TUEs) that has brought us to this point in the thread.

Wiggo's "edge cases" wouldn't be legal under the current TUE rules. You need independent doctors to sign it off now. Whether you trust the UCI to actually apply the rules is another question entirely...

[pdm]

You want to ban all haemophiliacs from pro cycling (or, if this is at the Wada level, all pro sport)? Should thyroxine be decided to be performance enhancing, you would just ban all hypothyroid people from pro sport? And if WADA decide that other medical products that individuals need are actually performance enhancing then you would happily ban them too.
After banning all those people who have done nothing wrong, you agree it won't stop the professionals from doping. What's the point?

FWIW,
The treatment for haemophilia is either clotting factor VIII or clotting factor IX depending on type or disease, neither of which are, or ever will be, remotely performance enhancing - they do need to be given intravenously. (Hence need for an "allow needles" exemption)
Thyroxine is not currently on the WADA list of performance enhancing substances.

Both need to be prescribed by a doctor but neither need TUEs.

[Jakob]

It missed  out on  BC's neglect of  the Women's team in that period. The use of Nicole Cook winning in Bejing was unintentionally ironic.

It annoyed me when they said it all started with the team sprint in Beijing, NC was the first gold medal there.
I know, I'm easily annoyed when it comes to british cycling.

I don't agree with the presence of top-flight professionals in the Olympics. I might be persuaded that there's a place for espoirs, as in soccer. The presence of pros in the  Commonwealth games is even worse. All it's done is to muddy the ethical waters.

I know this is a completely different issue, but the lines between professionals and amateurs are now so blurred that I don't see how that could be enforced. You would have to ban all sponsorship of any sort.

[Peter]

Nothing wrong with that.  Bring back the FA Amateur Cup, too.

[DuncanM]

You want to ban all haemophiliacs from pro cycling (or, if this is at the Wada level, all pro sport)? Should thyroxine be decided to be performance enhancing, you would just ban all hypothyroid people from pro sport? And if WADA decide that other medical products that individuals need are actually performance enhancing then you would happily ban them too.
After banning all those people who have done nothing wrong, you agree it won't stop the professionals from doping. What's the point?

FWIW,
The treatment for haemophilia is either clotting factor VIII or clotting factor IX depending on type or disease, neither of which are, or ever will be, remotely performance enhancing - they do need to be given intravenously.
Thyroxine is not currently on the WADA list of performance enhancing substances.

Both need to be prescribed by a doctor but neither need TUEs.

Thyroxine is currently not on the banned list despite USADA and UKAD fighting for it to be banned: http://roidvisor.com/wada-to-athletes-go-ahead-use-t3-thyroid-drugs-to-enhance-your-performance/
How long it remains legal without a TUE is clearly in doubt given the documented abuses.
I was confused by cityoen's post, so I've checked now... Needles are banned in cycling, but there are some exemptions listed in the rules - what he has and takes is described in here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/get-inspired/32434988
I assume the same exemption (13.3.052) applies to the novo nordisk team (they are a diabetic team).
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/69/13-SEC-20150101-E_English.pdf

[αdαmsκι]

It's interesting that this discussion has turned towards thyroid medication because The Secret Pro has suggested in his latest article for Cycling Tips that people are using thyroid medication to decrease their mass. Whilst legal at the moment he suggests it's a grey area and is potentially going to give longer term health issues to those riders abusing this medication. See here: https://cyclingtips.com/2017/11/the-secret-pro-sketchy-thyroids-confused-commissaires-and-more/

What is potentially more concerning is the rumoured use of thyroid medication. It hasn’t gotten much press but there’s lots of chatter about it. It’s a hormone that is not even on the watched list, it basically speeds up thyroid function massively making your metabolism go through the roof allowing guys to drop massive amounts of weight.

These days, body weight is where guys are getting the sketchiest gains. Or losses, I guess. Guys that used to be rouleurs are dropping 10kg and taking on the lightweights. If they’re doing it with thyroid meds, it’s something that will haunt these guys for life because taking it unnecessarily (some guys do actually have genuine hypothyroidism) will give you hypothyroidism. Stop taking it and you will become very fat very quickly. There is a large problem in America with teenage girls taking it as a way to keep weight off.

Racing grand tours and training like maniacs can already slow thyroid function; it’s one of the reasons we self-destruct. If they are to ban the use of thyroid medication they will have to work out a way to decipher between those who have a genuine thyroid problem or those who have given themselves one from living in the grey area. It has echoes of the cortisone issue, in that it can be used legitimately but prevalence among us elite athletes seems awfully high.

[Exit Stage Left]

It missed  out on  BC's neglect of  the Women's team in that period. The use of Nicole Cook winning in Bejing was unintentionally ironic.

It annoyed me when they said it all started with the team sprint in Beijing, NC was the first gold medal there.
I know, I'm easily annoyed when it comes to british cycling.

I don't agree with the presence of top-flight professionals in the Olympics. I might be persuaded that there's a place for espoirs, as in soccer. The presence of pros in the  Commonwealth games is even worse. All it's done is to muddy the ethical waters.

I know this is a completely different issue, but the lines between professionals and amateurs are now so blurred that I don't see how that could be enforced. You would have to ban all sponsorship of any sort.

You don't have to accept the heroes offered to you by the media. You certainly don't need to spend time trying to find flaws in the ones you are presented with.

[αdαmsκι]

If anyone is interested Richard Williams makes some good points in The Guardian about TUEs and also raises the question whether TUEs should be abolished.

Use of TUEs negate an intrinsic part of sport – the overcoming of exhaustion

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2017/nov/24/use-of-teus-negate-sport-overcoming-exhaustion

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Because it stops the edge cases (e.g. Wiggo's TUEs) that has brought us to this point in the thread.

Wiggo's "edge cases" wouldn't be legal under the current TUE rules. You need independent doctors to sign it off now. Whether you trust the UCI to actually apply the rules is another question entirely...

So who gets the bungs now? Froome seemed to get a fast-track TUE when he wanted it not so long ago.

[citoyen]

You want to ban all haemophiliacs from pro cycling (or, if this is at the Wada level, all pro sport)? Should thyroxine be decided to be performance enhancing, you would just ban all hypothyroid people from pro sport? And if WADA decide that other medical products that individuals need are actually performance enhancing then you would happily ban them too.
After banning all those people who have done nothing wrong, you agree it won't stop the professionals from doping. What's the point?

FWIW,
The treatment for haemophilia is either clotting factor VIII or clotting factor IX depending on type or disease, neither of which are, or ever will be, remotely performance enhancing - they do need to be given intravenously. (Hence need for an "allow needles" exemption)
Thyroxine is not currently on the WADA list of performance enhancing substances.

Both need to be prescribed by a doctor but neither need TUEs.

Yes, I looked this up and meant to post a clarification but hadn’t got round to it yet. I thought the treatment Dowsett used was a hormone but it’s not, it’s a protein. The reason for the TUE is that it needs to be administered by injection.

Clearly this is not an ‘edge’ case. There is no ‘performance enhancing’ element.

[David Martin]

Some hormones are proteins. (Because biology is confusing) Dowsett may be on any one of a number of treatments for haemophilia. Potentially recombinant FVIII, maybe recombinant FVII. I don't recall if FIX is available as a therapy. Depends on whether it is Haemophilia A or B.

[DuncanM]

According to the article I linked above,

Dowsett - who has special dispensation to inject himself every 48 hours with an engineered version of the clotting protein Factor VIII as his body doesn't naturally produce it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/get-inspired/32434988
The rules don't require a TUE for an injection, they include a special clause that allows certain types of injections:

. The injection must be reported immediately and in writing not later than 24
hours afterwards to the UCI Doctor (via email [medical@uci.ch] or fax [+41 24
468 59 48]), except for riders
a. With a valid TUE;
b. Vaccination
c. When the injection is received during hospital treatment or clinical
examination;
d. When normal practice is that the patient with a disease requiring injections
injects him/herself.

It's all on page 21 of this document:
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/69/13-SEC-20150101-E_English.pdf

[David Martin]

That would be Haemophilia A then.

[sg37409]

Not strictly Sky, but confirming my disappointment in ex-UCI lead, Brian Cookson.

Sir Bradley Wiggins' reputation 'must be reinstated' - ex-UCI boss Brian Cookson

[sojournermike]

Given he says he has no idea what was in the package and that no 'anti-doping violation' took place he is clearly struggling with logic... unless you can do what you like as long as no one can prove it?

In my view, they'd do well to keep him as far as possible from the launches of major events.

[αdαmsκι]

Nothing to see here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-returns-adverse-analytical-finding-for-salbutamol/

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Just think how fast he could go if he wasn't ill enough to need treatment.

[TigaSefi]

Let’s not be hasty.

[Karla]

Just imagine if his inhaler forces him to leave cycling:

"Froome goes out with an extra big puff" 

[sojournermike]

Just think how fast he could go if he wasn't ill enough to need treatment.

Asthma seems that be a necessary precondition for high performance sport these days. I told my you ngestbthat - gives her hope that with suitable medications n she can level the playing field with anyone...

[Si S]

Petacchi and Ulissi are probably watching with interest, fair play says a ban is the only option, but this is the UCI.

[ijsbrand]

WADA set a threshold of 1000 ng/ml, just so anyone needing a therapeutic dose of salbutamol could use it. Froome apparently had 2000 ng/ml in his piss. Cue: a long drawn out lawsuit showing Froome has a special metabolism too, so numbers could become that high.


Anyway, the stuff seems to have a known positive effect on submaximal exercise endurance in trained athletes. Provided those would take high doses.