Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system? (Read 190231 times)

sojournermike · « **Reply #1225 on:** 06 April, 2018, 09:10:34 am »

This quote on Wiggins, Froom and Sky sums it up nicely

We went through it with Festina and then went through it with U.S. Postal and now we’re going through it with Team Sky. And by “it” I mean institutionalized lying and bullshit

Wonder if they’ll trade places with Lance in the end

hubner · « **Reply #1226 on:** 06 April, 2018, 01:28:05 pm »

Quote

"He [Riis] only did what everyone else was doing"

With regards to Sky; did other riders from other teams get TUEs? Or did only Wiggins and Froome get them? In that BBC prog, it hinted at collusion by the UCI to allow secret doping via TUEs because of commercial interests; Sky had put £40 million into the sport and weren't getting results, ie no Tour win in 2011. I think the first TUE was before the 2012 Tour.

Wiggins, Froome, Brailsford etc are getting vilified because they are hypocrites. Wiggins said other riders "abused" PEDs but he was allowed to take them by the UCI!

citoyen · « **Reply #1227 on:** 06 April, 2018, 01:43:16 pm »

Quote from: hubner on 06 April, 2018, 01:28:05 pm

did other riders from other teams get TUEs?

Yes.

But what's more interesting is the cases where a rider didn't get a TUE. For example, Tim Wellens withdrew from last year's Tour rather than ask for the doctor's permission to take a PED to treat an allergy.
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/tim-wellens-refuses-tue-treat-illness-abandons-tour-de-france-342198

Sky talk the talk, but Wellens walks the walk.

In 2016, Simon Yates served a four-month ban for using an asthma treatment without obtaining the necessary TUE, and missed the Tour as a result. The team claimed it was an administrative error but whether you accept that or not, at least the rider and team took the punishment on the chin rather than try to fabricate an implausible excuse.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #1228 on:** 06 April, 2018, 01:54:21 pm »

40% of World Tour and 80% of Pro Continental Teams have signed up to the MPCC.

They can still use TUEs, but if they use the sort of corticosteroid drugs that Sky have used to win races, they have to remove themselves from racing for 8 days.

Sky refused to join the MPCC. They claimed it was because they held themselves to higher ethical standards. Just one if thereasons Sky are so hated.

mattc · « **Reply #1229 on:** 06 April, 2018, 04:12:43 pm »

Quote from: hubner on 06 April, 2018, 01:28:05 pm

Wiggins, Froome, Brailsford etc are getting vilified because they are hypocrites. Wiggins said other riders "abused" PEDs but he was allowed to take them by the UCI!

Like it or not, that's how the system works - the UCI decides what you can take and when.

DuncanM · « **Reply #1230 on:** 06 April, 2018, 04:31:14 pm »

Quote from: mattc on 06 April, 2018, 04:12:43 pm

Quote from: hubner on 06 April, 2018, 01:28:05 pm
Wiggins, Froome, Brailsford etc are getting vilified because they are hypocrites. Wiggins said other riders "abused" PEDs but he was allowed to take them by the UCI!
Like it or not, that's how the system works - the UCI decides what you can take and when.

True. However, if you come into the sport and announce you are going to be clean and transparently clean, you have to live up to that, or you will get vilified. There is a double standard for Sky, but because they said they wanted to be held to a higher standard than the other teams.

SoreTween · « **Reply #1231 on:** 06 April, 2018, 07:28:43 pm »

Depends on your definition of clean. If you take that to mean no drugs ever it appears they have not. If by clean you mean entirely within the rules then Wiggo has, Froome TBA.

hubner · « **Reply #1232 on:** 06 April, 2018, 07:56:06 pm »

I don't think faking an illness so that they can take PEDs is within the rules.

DuncanM · « **Reply #1233 on:** 06 April, 2018, 09:43:18 pm »

Quote from: SoreTween on 06 April, 2018, 07:28:43 pm

Depends on your definition of clean. If you take that to mean no drugs ever it appears they have not. If by clean you mean entirely within the rules then Wiggo has, Froome TBA.

But they sure as hell haven't been transparent.

mattc · « **Reply #1234 on:** 06 April, 2018, 11:25:52 pm »

Quote from: DuncanM on 06 April, 2018, 04:31:14 pm

Quote from: mattc on 06 April, 2018, 04:12:43 pm
Quote from: hubner on 06 April, 2018, 01:28:05 pm
Wiggins, Froome, Brailsford etc are getting vilified because they are hypocrites. Wiggins said other riders "abused" PEDs but he was allowed to take them by the UCI!
Like it or not, that's how the system works - the UCI decides what you can take and when.
True. However, if you come into the sport and announce you are going to be clean and transparently clean, you have to live up to that, or you will get vilified. There is a double standard for Sky, but because they said they wanted to be held to a higher standard than the other teams.

No matter how many "However"s you tack on, it's still true.

You can't bolster an argument by using an increasing number of untrue accusations - the case just becomes weaker. Of course, if you are simply trying to justify a pre-existing decision of guilt/hypocrisy ...

TigaSefi · « **Reply #1235 on:** 08 May, 2018, 04:56:19 pm »

Chris is never winning this Giro. It’s far too frantic and high paced for his train of men to maintain the stranglehold of death style. That last bit of the stage 4 was stunning. 40km/h uphill all the way!

sojournermike · « **Reply #1236 on:** 26 May, 2018, 08:06:22 am »

Quote from: TigaSefi on 08 May, 2018, 04:56:19 pm

Chris is never winning this Giro. It’s far too frantic and high paced for his train of men to maintain the stranglehold of death style. That last bit of the stage 4 was stunning. 40km/h uphill all the way!

Might have to rethink that - he seems to have rather come into form in time for the end of the race. To be fair, the girl really has been a marathon and Simon Yates time yesterday would suggest he’d just run out of go. Froome’s sustained attack looks pretty impressive though.

hubner · « **Reply #1237 on:** 26 May, 2018, 01:23:08 pm »

Quote from: mattc on 06 April, 2018, 11:25:52 pm

Quote from: DuncanM on 06 April, 2018, 04:31:14 pm
Quote from: mattc on 06 April, 2018, 04:12:43 pm
Quote from: hubner on 06 April, 2018, 01:28:05 pm
Wiggins, Froome, Brailsford etc are getting vilified because they are hypocrites. Wiggins said other riders "abused" PEDs but he was allowed to take them by the UCI!
Like it or not, that's how the system works - the UCI decides what you can take and when.
True. However, if you come into the sport and announce you are going to be clean and transparently clean, you have to live up to that, or you will get vilified. There is a double standard for Sky, but because they said they wanted to be held to a higher standard than the other teams.
No matter how many "However"s you tack on, it's still true.

You can't bolster an argument by using an increasing number of untrue accusations - the case just becomes weaker. Of course, if you are simply trying to justify a pre-existing decision of guilt/hypocrisy ...

Wiggins and Froome took PEDs using the TUE rules, that is a simple fact not an untrue accusation.

mattc · « **Reply #1238 on:** 26 May, 2018, 01:53:57 pm »

Quote from: hubner on 26 May, 2018, 01:23:08 pm

Wiggins and Froome took PEDs using the TUE rules, that is a simple fact not an untrue accusation.

So what? It's allowed. It's within the rules. It's not cheating. Anyone can do it. (the rules are changing all the time ... but you can still take certain PEDs under certain restrictions. Fact.)

What's your point again?

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #1239 on:** 26 May, 2018, 04:57:54 pm »

We still don't fully know what went on at Sky. We know Wiggins denied using injectables, only to be exposed by a data hack. We know 'the package' story unfurled with Sky caught out lying at every turn.

We know they ordered in a fuckload of PEDs and can't account for them because whatever records were kept were lost when a single laptop for one Team Sky doctor was stolen.

Oh yes...they also ordered Testosterone patches.

But they are the cleanest team ever with a higher ethical standard.

LEE · « **Reply #1240 on:** 26 May, 2018, 05:03:19 pm »

Quote from: Flatus on 26 May, 2018, 04:57:54 pm

But they are the cleanest team ever with a higher ethical standard.

They probably are (but it's a very low standard to beat.)

It's like setting out to be the most liberal head of the KGB.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #1241 on:** 26 May, 2018, 05:15:00 pm »

Except that they demonstrably aren't.

There is much talk about power data from yesterday's stage being released by all but one of the main guys. Can you guess which one?

Après TUE farce we now know why Sky wouldn't join the MPCC.

Publicise a ZTP policy and then employ Michael Barry? A team mate of Lance. And Geert Leinders , former Rabobank doping doctor.

Before anybody excuses Brailsford on the ground of naivety. it's worth remembering that Brailsford was arrested and questioned by French police when David Miller was busted.

He knew the score.

hubner · « **Reply #1242 on:** 26 May, 2018, 06:46:28 pm »

Quote from: mattc on 26 May, 2018, 01:53:57 pm

Quote from: hubner on 26 May, 2018, 01:23:08 pm
Wiggins and Froome took PEDs using the TUE rules, that is a simple fact not an untrue accusation.

So what? It's allowed. It's within the rules. It's not cheating. Anyone can do it. (the rules are changing all the time ... but you can still take certain PEDs under certain restrictions. Fact.)

What's your point again?

I'm not sure it was even within the rules; TUEs are for real medical needs and doesn't include faking an illness so you can take PEDs.

Although the way TUEs were/are administered, in secret and all you need is a doctor's note, means there's no difference between real medical needs and faking an illness.

αdαmsκι · « **Reply #1243 on:** 26 May, 2018, 07:55:26 pm »

Quote from: hubner on 26 May, 2018, 06:46:28 pm

TUEs are for real medical needs and doesn't include faking an illness so you can take PEDs.

This is the key point that many forget / don't understand when claiming Sky were acting within the rules.

rafletcher · « **Reply #1244 on:** 26 May, 2018, 08:02:56 pm »

Surely it’s up to the authority granting the TUE to determine the genuiness or ortherwise of the request? Teams will always try it on.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #1245 on:** 26 May, 2018, 08:58:24 pm »

Quote from: rafletcher on 26 May, 2018, 08:02:56 pm

Surely it’s up to the authority granting the TUE to determine the genuiness or ortherwise of the request? Teams will always try it on.

Yes. It's not just Sky gaming the system, it's the system conniving with doping. Which doesn't make it right, but did make it approved (even if it shouldn't have been).

mattc · « **Reply #1246 on:** 27 May, 2018, 08:17:53 am »

Quote from: rafletcher on 26 May, 2018, 08:02:56 pm

Surely it’s up to the authority granting the TUE to determine the genuiness or ortherwise of the request? Teams will always try it on.

Yes, but there is then a right of appeal to Social Media - if they judge you guilty, you should be banned. Simples!

mattc · « **Reply #1247 on:** 27 May, 2018, 08:19:24 am »

Quote from: αdαmsκι on 26 May, 2018, 07:55:26 pm

Quote from: hubner on 26 May, 2018, 06:46:28 pm
TUEs are for real medical needs and doesn't include faking an illness so you can take PEDs.

This is the key point that many forget / don't understand when claiming Sky were acting within the rules.

What many forget/don't-understand is that they have NO IDEA who was faking an illness, who wasn't, and which non-SKY teams have "stretched" the rules.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #1248 on:** 27 May, 2018, 09:56:52 am »

Actually Matt, we do, because most teams signed up to the MPCC.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #1249 on:** 27 May, 2018, 10:38:19 am »

Quote from: mattc on 27 May, 2018, 08:17:53 am

Quote from: rafletcher on 26 May, 2018, 08:02:56 pm
Surely it’s up to the authority granting the TUE to determine the genuiness or ortherwise of the request? Teams will always try it on.
Yes, but there is then a right of appeal to Social Media - if they judge you guilty, you should be banned. Simples!

You cannot rely on the cycling authorities, Matt.

If you knew anything, you would know that. Think about the major scandals of the last 20 years and cross-reference how many were caught by the cycling authorities.

Festina? Lance? Miller? Rasmussen? Basso? Ulrich? Think about Puerto.

There is precisely zero likelihood that Froome is a clean rider. Zero. Based on career trajectory alone. There are precisely no informed observer's who think that he is. Not even Walsh, now that he has banked his 30 pieces of silver. Team Sky's total lack of transparency and trail of lies is just symptomatic.