Winter randonneuring was Re: The Full Fat Festive 500: 511 km of riding in the bleak midwinter

[bludger]

[teethgrinder]

So I guess all you are quibbling about is the distance of the event?

I'm quibbling about the encouragement. There will undoubtably be night riding. It gets colder and the weather is more dangerous at night.

Yes, it's a hobby. I don;t see what point that tries to make. Is it that we shouldn't push our limits or be audacious?

We shouldn't expect other people to look after our foolishness. If you set out doing something reckless (Park Rash in the snow, just as an actual; this happened ferinstance) and something goes tits up, it's society as a whole, the NHS in particular who picks up the pieces. I think it's selfish.

If the weather is beyond the limits of myself or my equipment (I don't have studded tyres for ice) I won't ride. I've booked hotels in advance for a December 1000 and not even turned up at the start because of the risk of ice and lost all my hotel booking money. The audax minimum speed solves a lot of problems of risk. If it's that hazardous, you'll be too slow for the time limit. That applies to sleepiness as well.

Which is fine for one person to make that choice, but putting on an event and not cancelling because WEATHER (the Snowcovered Dean, for example) is an encouragement for people to take risks which are for their own enjoyment but cost society as a whole.

One reason I like the idea of this event is that I can d a good winter ride in company for a change. It'll be more fun and it means we can look out for each other, not like when I do solo winter permanents, which is what I'd do if I don;t ride this event.

all of which is fair enough. But what about others who don't have your experience and judgement and go out anyway?

I'd be more concerned about drunk drivers than weather and that is as much of a problem in summer holiday months.

I've never been hit by a drunk driver but I've assisted riders to ambulances thanks to ice. I've come off (on my way to work, on hobby rides) several times. You can see why I view one as more likely than the other. One is preventable by your own actions- stay off the roads if the weather is unsuitable- the other is not- who knows when the next DD will strike. Winter is a lot more predictable- it's always a possibility, even a probability in December.

So ban all events in winter? Less experienced riders tend to do more night riding on 200s in December. The weather can often be better at night than it is in the day. Wind is almost always lighter at night.

There's risk involved in anything, so I guess what you're saying is that the risk is too great, so can you tell us all what the risk is compared to other hobbies, activities and so on and what exactly the acceptable limit is?
Inexperienced riders gain experience by doing stuff. At least on an organised event, more experienced riders could tell others if it looked like a bad idea to carry on. I found out by going off on my own.
Ice is the biggest thing to worry about regarding weather, unless you have the right tyres. I think that everyone knows the risks of ice. Was the snowcovered Dean in Spring? Maybe we should ban events that aren't in summer? Heat can also be very dangerous though...
My motives for not taking chances are a whole lot more selfish than my motives for doing the ride because it could wipe out several months riding and broken bones aren't fun.
Drunk drivers are prevalent in summer holidays and over the Christmas period. Weather is much more variable but the forecasts are good.

I've always been an advocate of winter perms and have encouraged others to join me. I have always had it mind that I would only encourage those who I knew would be OK and could get out of trouble and if anyone asked to ride with me who i thought would get in trouble, I'd discourage them.
But after several years I found that I never needed to discourage anyone. If anything I've reassured people that we'd be OK and shown them the plans if the weather turned or we got too tired. It's just too daunting to take on lightly. I've had people full of bravado saying they'd do winter rides with me but when the reality dawns on them of how hard it will be, they don't  turn up.
You also get very miserable before you get in real danger. Add to that, the weather etc will slow you right down, which makes carrying on futile for finishing the event in time and getting to a hotel is the only logical thing to do (and you'd probably sell your mother's soul to get out of the cold!)

[Whitedown Man]

This is an interesting discussion, but perhaps should be split off into its own thread (no idea how to do this though I’m afraid).

I’m an enthusiastic winter rider (full disclosure - I live in the south east so benefit from the most benign conditions in the country). Each of the last two winters I’ve continued riding 200s each weekend through the winter months, with only winds greater than 30mph and/or settled snow causing me to DNS. Roads, in the main, are gritted, and any ice or deep frost rarely lasts more than an hour after sunrise and rarely reappears until a few hours after dusk.

And in return, the rider is frequently rewarded with IMO the best riding conditions of the year: clear, crisp air, blue skies, brilliant sunshine. What’s not to like?

Given that people overseas ride their bikes in much harsher winter conditions than we get in the U.K., I suggest the danger is more imagined than real.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Very few folk ride 200s in proper winter weather overseas and only a handful ride further. Otherwise, carry on the debate.

[Whitedown Man]

Very few folk ride 200s in proper winter weather overseas and only a handful ride further. Otherwise, carry on the debate.

Fair enough - totally respect your greater knowledge of non-UK randonneuring. Am additionally interested in your thoughts on winter randonneuring in the U.K.

[Wycombewheeler]

So I guess all you are quibbling about is the distance of the event?

I'm quibbling about the encouragement. There will undoubtably be night riding. It gets colder and the weather is more dangerous at night.

Yes, it's a hobby. I don;t see what point that tries to make. Is it that we shouldn't push our limits or be audacious?

We shouldn't expect other people to look after our foolishness. If you set out doing something reckless (Park Rash in the snow, just as an actual; this happened ferinstance) and something goes tits up, it's society as a whole, the NHS in particular who picks up the pieces. I think it's selfish.

If the weather is beyond the limits of myself or my equipment (I don't have studded tyres for ice) I won't ride. I've booked hotels in advance for a December 1000 and not even turned up at the start because of the risk of ice and lost all my hotel booking money. The audax minimum speed solves a lot of problems of risk. If it's that hazardous, you'll be too slow for the time limit. That applies to sleepiness as well.

Which is fine for one person to make that choice, but putting on an event and not cancelling because WEATHER (the Snowcovered Dean, for example) is an encouragement for people to take risks which are for their own enjoyment but cost society as a whole.

One reason I like the idea of this event is that I can d a good winter ride in company for a change. It'll be more fun and it means we can look out for each other, not like when I do solo winter permanents, which is what I'd do if I don;t ride this event.

all of which is fair enough. But what about others who don't have your experience and judgement and go out anyway?

I'd be more concerned about drunk drivers than weather and that is as much of a problem in summer holiday months.

I've never been hit by a drunk driver but I've assisted riders to ambulances thanks to ice. I've come off (on my way to work, on hobby rides) several times. You can see why I view one as more likely than the other. One is preventable by your own actions- stay off the roads if the weather is unsuitable- the other is not- who knows when the next DD will strike. Winter is a lot more predictable- it's always a possibility, even a probability in December.

Nhs also picks up the pieces from smoking, alcohol abuse, obesity, other sports, road traffic accidents caused by motor vehicles. I won't feel too guilty as I'm sure I have paid far more in over my life than I have taken out.

[quixoticgeek]

Very few folk ride 200s in proper winter weather overseas and only a handful ride further. Otherwise, carry on the debate.

My first every 200 was done in the Netherlands, in January this year. We had snow, ice, sleet, rain, and horrible winds. It was floating around zero the whole way round.

A month later I tried my 2nd 200. I scratched due to frost nip at 65km, it was beautiful sunshine, horrible headwinds, and -5°C. No ice issues, but bloody cold.

Does this count as foreign? does this count as winter?

J

[nextSibling]

Yes, it's a hobby. I don;t see what point that tries to make. Is it that we shouldn't push our limits or be audacious?

We shouldn't expect other people to look after our foolishness. If you set out doing something reckless (Park Rash in the snow, just as an actual; this happened ferinstance) and something goes tits up, it's society as a whole, the NHS in particular who picks up the pieces. I think it's selfish.

FWIW, the orthopedic consultant who put my knee back together (thanks NHS) told me he sees twice as many sports injuries from amateur football than every other sport combined. I doubt the slight chance of a crash among a handful of Audax riders on a single event is going to make a dent in the NHS budget. And good luck telling all those Sunday league footballers they're selfish.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Does this count as foreign? does this count as winter?

Congratulations on riding some winter 200s. I've collected several RRtYs this century, so understand what it takes to finish winter 200s, in mostly benign conditions.

Have a look at the ACP list of BRMs in northern hemisphere countries from the beginning of December 2017 to the end of February 2018. See how many events are held in each country (typically 0 or 1 per month nationally, very occasionally 2). All of the events I saw listed were 200s. If you check how many riders there are in a sample of these events, the rider numbers are quite a bit lower than they are in warmer months, unsurprisingly.

AUK is an outlier because it has lots of locally homologated brevets that don't show up on that list. There is a handful of non-ACP-homologated winter events in other countries (Norwegian? winter solstice).

[GrahamG]

Very few folk ride 200s in proper winter weather overseas and only a handful ride further. Otherwise, carry on the debate.

I'm with them. I find winter 200s proper miserable unless the weather is particularly good. Still, this is the sort of thing that the club does informally anyway as DIY or group rides so it's more a case of throwing it open to all for a more sociable gathering of like minded masochists

[mattc]

Very few folk ride 200s in proper winter weather overseas and only a handful ride further. Otherwise, carry on the debate.

My first every 200 was done in the Netherlands, in January this year. We had snow, ice, sleet, rain, and horrible winds. It was floating around zero the whole way round.

A month later I tried my 2nd 200. I scratched due to frost nip at 65km, it was beautiful sunshine, horrible headwinds, and -5°C. No ice issues, but bloody cold.

Does this count as foreign? does this count as winter?

Yes [ in this context]. And yes.  And it definitely counts within "very few" (being 2 rides).

What's your point?

[api]

Does this count as foreign? does this count as winter?

---
AUK is an outlier because it has lots of locally homologated brevets that don't show up on that list. There is a handful of non-ACP-homologated winter events in other countries (Norwegian? winter solstice).

In Finland we have had something like 20...30 participants for the winter solstice rides. Although the 'official' result list includes quite a lot of DNF / DQF, most just fails to stay out of finish until sunrise. I don't see those rides would have included any dangerous element. Although, as I have always been riding with studded tyres, the 15 km/h average speed could be quite a challenge to achieve if long headwind sections and/or new snow or sleet are included.

[Ivan]

Montreal have the 'sous zero' 200 in January, though it only had 3 starters and 2 finishers this year: http://pages.infinit.net/cvrm/PageResultats.html

[quixoticgeek]

Yes [ in this context]. And yes.  And it definitely counts within "very few" (being 2 rides).

What's your point?

That's because I didn't do the 300 that was run between the 2...

My point is that just across the North sea from you is a country where the audax association has only ~150 members, yet manages to run a full calendar of events, what ever the weather.

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

My point is that only a few hundred people ride 200km events in winter worldwide. That counts as 'very few' in my book, even amongst the tens of thousands who ride 200+km brevets.

[whosatthewheel]

That's because I didn't do the 300 that was run between the 2...

My point is that just across the North sea from you is a country where the audax association has only ~150 members, yet manages to run a full calendar of events, what ever the weather.

J

There is a full calendar of events even here, but anything longer than 200 is very rare in the three winter months and for very good reasons.

Putting up an X rated event comes with low risk, because it has zero costs and doesn't need volunteers... you show up in a car park to hand out cards and wave them goodbye.
Anything with slightly more TLC (even just a village hall to start with some food) comes at a cost and I don't see many takers for long events to be honest.

Now, this gets people talking and some will be talked into it, what will happen is that 30-40 will sign up for this 500 and on the day anything between a half and three quarters will not show up... but it's an X rated, so no real issue

[quixoticgeek]

My point is that only a few hundred people ride 200km events in winter worldwide. That counts as 'very few' in my book, even amongst the tens of thousands who ride 200+km brevets.

Yes, and many people put their bike away in October and take it out again in March. Apparently The Weather™ is too much for them. And yet others put on a decent jacket, wear proper gloves, and in extremis put on the spiked tyres, and just keep riding.

Some people choose to ride through the winter, some don't. What is the harm in organising Brevetts for those in the former group who have made the judgement call that they do want to keep riding through the winter?

Don't forget the Strava Rapha Festive 500 has been run for a number of years to encourage people to ride 500km between xmas eve and new year, is strava and rapha being irresponsible in encouraging such?

Remember many who would do the full fat festive 500 are the sort that if there wasn't the calendar event, would just do a perm instead. If anything doing it as a group is safer than doing it on your own...

Anyway as established, yes the number of people doing audax rides in winter drops, but then so does the number of people cycling in general.

(Numbers for the February ride 66 people were homologated. The 200km ride from Overveen last weekend had 52 people riding it.)

There is a full calendar of events even here, but anything longer than 200 is very rare in the three winter months and for very good reasons.

Putting up an X rated event comes with low risk, because it has zero costs and doesn't need volunteers... you show up in a car park to hand out cards and wave them goodbye.
Anything with slightly more TLC (even just a village hall to start with some food) comes at a cost and I don't see many takers for long events to be honest.

Now, this gets people talking and some will be talked into it, what will happen is that 30-40 will sign up for this 500 and on the day anything between a half and three quarters will not show up... but it's an X rated, so no real issue

All of the Dutch BRM's I've done have been using commercial controls, or the race organiser parked a car up by the side of the road to flag people down to stamp their control.

The Dutch organised a 300 in February this year (I missed it due to work). I'm hoping to do it if they organise it next year.

If it wasn't for the fact that I'll be doing my own 600km (well 3 x 200km) DIY on 24/25/26 in Germany (With studded tyres probably). This full fat festive does rather appeal...

J

[quixoticgeek]

extra note, at the Dutch autumn and winter BRM's most of the riders are German. The German randonneurs don't organise any events beyond September, and don't start till march, so if you want a chance at a RRtY, then you have to cross the border. Gives a delightful international feel to the event, and I am very greatful for the friendly Germans who helped me get round my first 200 with a mix of emotional support, and letting me such their wheel when the wind got really strong.

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

QG, I've not commented at all whether or not somebody should do this event. Don't argue 'at' me to agree with your opinion.

[quixoticgeek]

QG, I've not commented at all whether or not somebody should do this event. Don't argue 'at' me to agree with your opinion.

Apologies.

[Alex B]

Having twice crashed on black ice in pursuit of RRtYs I took the hint this year and swore off riding when there's a risk of ice, breaking my RRtY in the process. Better a broken RRtY than a broken limb.

It's quite hard to known when there's a risk of ice. It might be 5 °C in the city in the morning, but that shady patch in the lane by the stream might have frozen overnight and still be lethal at midday. Weather forecasts are based on air temperature and ground temperatures can be much lower. As a rule of thumb I now reckon that if any part of a course has been forecast to drop to freezing overnight, there's a risk of ice next day.

In my observation many riders who haven't crashed on ice don't appreciate the risk. It's like Russian Roulette: "I've spun the chamber and pulled the trigger loads of times without a problem!"

[whosatthewheel]

Having twice crashed on black ice in pursuit of RRtYs I took the hint this year and swore off riding when there's a risk of ice, breaking my RRtY in the process. Better a broken RRtY than a broken limb.

It's quite hard to known when there's a risk of ice. It might be 5 °C in the city in the morning, but that shady patch in the lane by the stream might have frozen overnight and still be lethal at midday. Weather forecasts are based on air temperature and ground temperatures can be much lower. As a rule of thumb I now reckon that if any part of a course has been forecast to drop to freezing overnight, there's a risk of ice next day.

In my observation many riders who haven't crashed on ice don't appreciate the risk. It's like Russian Roulette: "I've spun the chamber and pulled the trigger loads of times without a problem!"

Completely agree...

[Chris S]

Oddly enough, fboab's original comments that led to this spin-off thread haven't made it here.

It's not so much the personal risk involved - what people do to themselves is entirely up to them, and if it were as simple as that, there wouldn't be any discussion. The problem is, in the event of an incident, others are obliged to put themselves at risk to come to a rider's aid; just because that rider selfishly wanted to spin the chamber (good analogy, that one!) one more time.

There's a sliding scale here. I think sending off a group of riders into country lanes from a frost-covered car-park is irresponsible - regardless of the "It's their choice" argument. At the other extreme, we've helped riders who've crashed on ice, when there was absolutely no reason to suspect there would be ice on that day - and that was just bad luck.

Our experiences of RRTY over the years have gradually led us to the point where we now do very little road riding in winter.

[quixoticgeek]

In my observation many riders who haven't crashed on ice don't appreciate the risk. It's like Russian Roulette: "I've spun the chamber and pulled the trigger loads of times without a problem!"

When I was 16, cycling to work at my then first job, I went round a corner in the snow, came off, and the keys in my pocket made a lovely scar on my thigh. Since then I avoided riding on ice at all costs... Until I discovered studded tyres. Now I cycle on ice & snow without issue. Sure I have to be a bit more careful, and you can have fun with sastrugi, but being able to cycle through to work when everyone else has had to endure pubic transport is worth it.

Cycling on ice, like cycling on all other surfaces is all about the right equipment. Studded tyres are part of that right equipment.

J

[citoyen]

In my observation many riders who haven't crashed on ice don't appreciate the risk. It's like Russian Roulette: "I've spun the chamber and pulled the trigger loads of times without a problem!"

I've had a few ice-related falls but have been fortunate to come off relatively unscathed each time. Even so, bodyslamming yourself against the tarmac is enough to make you wary on future occasions...

I've also been on audaxes where I've seen the aftermath of other people falling on ice - notably the Kennett Valley Run a couple of years ago when a patch of thick ice quite early on the route left one rider with a broken hip. It's not just the falling off and injuring yourself that's a problem, it's having to lie in pain on frozen ground waiting for an ambulance, which is also struggling to get there because of the conditions. All in all, best avoided.