Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => PBP => Topic started by: Bianchi Boy on 25 August, 2019, 11:18:40 am
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Does anyone know if or when the results will be available in Excel format. I need to feed the inner data analyst....
BB
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It was an interesting experience covering PBP 2019. there seems to have been a restatement of the principles of Randonnee, with sparse information on all fronts. Working from the tracking information was a bit of a shot in the dark. I got wind of Zigzag's early performance on here, so was able to predict the arrival of the first group at Loudeac, which was more information than the controllers at Loudeac had.
The actual leaders were accompanied by some of the Tandem Images film crew, so their colleagues lined up to shoot their arrival. The motorbikes accompanying them were directed off, so the arrival required knowledge of the numbering system, and I recognised Marko Baloh from LEL. He then disappeared onto the melee, and was told to move his bike when he parked it too near the control.
We could then follow Marko on the tracking, to gauge where the front group was. When I got back to Rambouillet I asked J.P. Chardon who had won. He told me that the velomobile had won, and showed me a picture of the velomobile, the three riders from the front group, and a prize Merino ram, on the finish line. He also showed me the classification, which was complicated by not allowing for start time.
ACP might be playing their cards close to their chest for data protection reasons, or they might not. There's so much politics surrounding the status of PBP as non-competitive, within a changed environment for long distance cycling, that it's hard to disentangle the various threads.
I'm very glad that I wasn't seeking to cover the performance of the front group. That would have entailed putting in a lot of effort, only to have it undercut within an hour of the apparent result.
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ACP might be playing their cards close to their chest for data protection reasons, or they might not.
Hah! On the way back in Dreux they had a laptop showing how many people had checked in at each control. Nice, but the program allowed to search for riders and did show their birthdate... It also appeared to allow me to change the status (like "abandoned") for the rider; I didn't try in fear of making irreversible changes and ruining someones (or my own) ride, but I did raise an eyebrow in seeing this...
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ACP might be playing their cards close to their chest for data protection reasons, or they might not.
Hah! On the way back in Dreux they had a laptop showing how many people had checked in at each control. Nice, but the program allowed to search for riders and did show their birthdate... It also appeared to allow me to change the status (like "abandoned") for the rider; I didn't try in fear of making irreversible changes and ruining someones (or my own) ride, but I did raise an eyebrow in seeing this...
I had reason to show the organisation the video of the 2015 start, and used an LEL surplus Lenovo Thinkpad running Windows 7. That's also what the PBP organisation was using. The finish times on their laptop were different to the tracker. Whether they were taking their times at the main finish, or had manual times for the first finishers is an interesting point.
The various layers of manual, laptop and smartphone information systems were interesting.
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Someone's been busy :
http://www.pbpresults.com
It's not excel and has errors, but it's in interesting read ...
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It thinks I finished hors delai but sub-90 hours. The first is incorrect.
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It thinks I finished hors delai but sub-90 hours. The first is incorrect.
Same with me and at least one other rider I know. Looking at the hors delais results I suspect he has categorised some groups wrongly as 80 hours. It's a bit frustrating there are no contact details on the website. Nice to have someone compile the results but it would be considerably better if they were compiled accurately.
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It's not that hard to scrape[1] the tracker results and reformat that data into a website/spreadsheet. Shai Shprung did it for a few previous PBPs using the older style tracking website.
It'll only be as accurate as the tracker information though.
1. 50 entries at a time, which is easy given the easily guessable frame numbers.
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Shows me as dnf, probably due to a trawl of electronic tracking. However the official photos for me will display a remarkably accurate finish time, so the official photographers have access to better data, and acp have been updating this with card times where available.
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Domain registered 9 days ago.
Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0155535957
96 Mowat Ave,
Toronto, ON, M6K 3M1, ca
Phone 1 416 538 5457
Email: pbpresults@contactprivacy.com
Funny that they are hiding their identify when they are quite happy to publish data of European residents when they haven't been given permission to do that.
The website is hosted in California but is owned by a Canadian. Sure if you work through the Canadian riders, or contact their national randonneuring organisation, they can be tracked down.
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Unlikely to be a Canadian because of that, that's just the location of the privacy hiding service. My personal website is hosted in Canada but otherwise lists US addresses (of Network Solutions). There's no longer any of my personal info there.
Could PBP riders avoid having their tracking information published by PBP/ACP if they didn't provide the appropriate consent? (I'm guessing PBP/ACP either didn't bother asking clearly, or provided an opt-out - neither of which really comply with GDPR).
Of course, just because the PI data of EU citizens is publicly available on one site (the PBP tracking site) does not give anyone automatic permission to republish it elsewhere regardless of where the site is hosted.
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My money is on Gabriel Landais, who has posted this visualisation. But what do I ever know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zukhdK-A0oo&fbclid=IwAR3RjNU-lPttuvfAmjdgvlpZtKfZQO8E2B0iOS3ulDwDX1yFzlLb4gW70DA
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Unlikely to be a Canadian because of that, that's just the location of the privacy hiding service. My personal website is hosted in Canada but otherwise lists US addresses (of Network Solutions). There's no longer any of my personal info there.
Could PBP riders avoid having their tracking information published by PBP/ACP if they didn't provide the appropriate consent? (I'm guessing PBP/ACP either didn't bother asking clearly, or provided an opt-out
The website also has a Canadian flag on it and says proudly made in Canada. Which was the other info I took that led me towards the conclusion a Canadian has created this.
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Unlikely to be a Canadian because of that, that's just the location of the privacy hiding service. My personal website is hosted in Canada but otherwise lists US addresses (of Network Solutions). There's no longer any of my personal info there.
Could PBP riders avoid having their tracking information published by PBP/ACP if they didn't provide the appropriate consent? (I'm guessing PBP/ACP either didn't bother asking clearly, or provided an opt-out
The website also has a Canadian flag on it and says proudly made in Canada. Which was the other info I took that led me towards the conclusion a Canadian has created this.
Ah, fair enough! (Didn't scroll down that far, although I did check the whois info and the About page. The website footer is below the fold on my computer.)
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Looks like [edit - some of] the results on this website have now been corrected (mine are ok now and I can see that LWaB's are too)
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Could PBP riders avoid having their tracking information published by PBP/ACP if they didn't provide the appropriate consent? (I'm guessing PBP/ACP either didn't bother asking clearly, or provided an opt-out - neither of which really comply with GDPR).
With what end in view - using PBP as cover for a dirty weekend?
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Could PBP riders avoid having their tracking information published by PBP/ACP if they didn't provide the appropriate consent? (I'm guessing PBP/ACP either didn't bother asking clearly, or provided an opt-out - neither of which really comply with GDPR).
With what end in view - using PBP as cover for a dirty weekend?
Not everyone wants their personal information published for all manner of reasons.
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I contacted Maya Ide about the Japanese rider who'd been credited with second. He'd packed at Tinteniac, and returned to Rambouillet, where he'd been directed over the finish mat.
Maya expressed surprise that medals were being given out to riders who were 24 hours late. I saw riders hanging around the stamping area with an air of expectation, even though they had very few stamps in their Brevet cards.
I'm in favour of HD, as it encourages riders to get back to base under their own steam, and it helps with charity link-ups. I pointed out HD as a motivation when I was filming in 2015. The problems start when the finish timer is turned off, which happens very promptly. I'd expect HD to rise significantly after cards have been checked.
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According to this data it looks like ~80% of Audax UK finished within their time limit (those who list their club as Audax UK had a completion rate of 79% and those who list their country as UK had a completion rate of 80%). This compares to an overall completion rate of 66% (I've included DNS in the calculations). The AUK rate is similar to previous years I think?
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90 hour specials appeared to be miss-classified by the Canadian site as 80 hour starters when I looked at it.
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The more I look at this, the more errors there seem to be ...
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The more I look at this, the more errors there seem to be ...
It's based on a third party scrape from the tracking data. It's quite useful in alerting participants to errors. The definitive result takes time, as it's based on the cards, not the tracking. Although in the absence of a stamp, the tracking is used.
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The observed apparent unpreparedness of people from India is confirmed by the 90% fail rate in these unofficial results.
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The definitive result takes time, as it's based on the cards, not the tracking. Although in the absence of a stamp, the tracking is used.
Is it ? I was told by a (possibly misinformed) official that the chip time was being used and the cards were being checked for stamps and penalities.
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The definitive result takes time, as it's based on the cards, not the tracking. Although in the absence of a stamp, the tracking is used.
Is it ? I was told by a (possibly misinformed) official that the chip time was being used and the cards were being checked for stamps and penalities.
I believe chip time is the official time, except where it is not available where it will be replaced by the card time.
This is borne out when looking at the maindru photos, one of the options is to have a time. Where a chip time is available that time is used, in cases without (like me) it has been replaced by card time. Any photo showing a number of seconds which is not 00 must have come from electronic timing. Anyone without electronic timing will have hr:mn:00 although roughly 1 in 60 will have :00 recorded by electronic timing also
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Could PBP riders avoid having their tracking information published by PBP/ACP if they didn't provide the appropriate consent? (I'm guessing PBP/ACP either didn't bother asking clearly, or provided an opt-out - neither of which really comply with GDPR).
With what end in view - using PBP as cover for a dirty weekend?
Reminds me of a "conversation" (or perhaps a monlogue) I overheard part of while scoffing food outside the Carefour City;
woman with a distinctly southern english accent bellowing out "You know many of the men don't want their wife here"
According to this data it looks like ~80% of Audax UK finished within their time limit (those who list their club as Audax UK had a completion rate of 79% and those who list their country as UK had a completion rate of 80%). This compares to an overall completion rate of 66% (I've included DNS in the calculations). The AUK rate is similar to previous years I think?
Stats aren't as easy to gain on country of base;
Jasmijn Muller is listed as Dutch but has club as Kingston wheelers; an easy one to figure out but putting all UK based clubs in may pick up riders who hardly if ever ride in the UK.
Another rider is listed as American and has their club as a global one; a bit trickier to figure out unless you know that all of their rides for the year have started on GB and north of the 'umber.
Stats from that pbpresutls site to satisfy my curiosity
Riders with their country as
UK: 449 finished, 7 OTL/HD, 87 DNF, 19 DNS out of 562; 82% of starters finished in time
US: 295 finished, 17 OTL/HD, 124 DNF, 25 DNS out of 461; 67% of starters finished in time
DE: 540 finished, 22 OTL/HD, 110 DNF, 28 DNS out of 700; 80% of starters finished in time
JP: 215 finished, 21 OTL/HD, 135 DNF, 14 DNS out of 385; 58% of starters finished in time
CA: 75 finished, 7 OTL/HD, 22 DNF, 3 DNS out of 107; 72% of starters finished in time
IE: 48 finished, 0 OTL/HD, 13 DNF, 5 DNS out of 66; 78% of starters finished in time
At club level it doesn't seem to let you build up a list of them in the same way you can of countries;
Ythan CC, West Lothian Clarion and Scottish Borders have 100% records , but they were all or nothing :P
Audax Ecosse, Edinburgh RC and Highland CTC all lost 1 rider
I got a list of riders from the Audax Ecosse facebook page that I'll try and piece together finish rates from, though know it missed a couple.
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The definitive result takes time, as it's based on the cards, not the tracking. Although in the absence of a stamp, the tracking is used.
Is it ? I was told by a (possibly misinformed) official that the chip time was being used and the cards were being checked for stamps and penalities.
And also time allowances. I got knocked off by a scooter in 2003, and got three hours allowance in the Brevet Card. Then I got lost, as the marshals had gone from Fresnay sur Sarthe. Back then they used a magnetic swipe card for tracking, although in 1999 you could only follow it on Minitel. I didn't get swiped at the finish, but got my card signed by an official. I was two hours over time, and got a 90 hour time. Not strictly within the rules, but within the spirit of PBP.
The electronics were turned off promptly, so there'll be the odd 84 hour rider in a similar position, and there are lots of HD. The chip time is the official time, but that still leaves a lot of cards to be looked at, and they don't give a partial result. This scrape is handy in alerting riders to problems.
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I got curious too:
NL: 73 finished, 4 OTL/HD, 18 DNF, 5 DNS out of 100; 77% of starters finished in time
One HD was less than 2 minutes OTL, it's possible he actually was in time.
A rather depressing stat (I think): only two women from those 100 (including Jasmijn). But they both did finish in time so that's a 100% :D
India: 44 finished, 31 OTL/HD, 222 DNF, 25 DNS out of 322; 15% of starters finished in time
Thailand: 15 finished, 9 OTL/HD, 57 DNF, 6 DNS; 19% of starters finished in time
Korea: 28 finished, 18 OTL/HD, 23 DNF, 0 DNS(!) out of 69; 41% of starters finished in time
France: 1144 finished, 39 OTL/HD, 344 DNF, 41 DNS out of 1568; 75% of starters finished in time
One Korean was OTL by 10 seconds... Hope this gets "corrected" to a 90:00:00 finish!
Also curious how this (esp. the riders from asia) compares to LEL in 2017. LEL was a little warmer in the night (lowest 8 degrees according to my Garmin); much more rain and had a real headwind on the return (much stronger than on this PBP).
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The first electronically-recorded HD would have been 80 hours and 1 second after 16.00 on the Sunday, so midnight Wednesday for an A group rider. The last would have been around 5pm on the Thursday, which is when the timing operatives switched the equipment off. All subsequent HDs won't be visible on this scrape.
I've had reports of medals being handed out on the Friday, so there'll be a lot more HDs. Riders can also collect proof of passage if controls are closed. All this can be a bit upsetting for those who see PBP as a sort of graduate qualification in cycling, as it seems like grade inflation. I take a more relaxed attitude, as I did two before this trend set in, in 2007.
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Dishing out medals to any rider turning up at the finish does devalue the medals but it’s eventually having your name on the official finishers list that really counts. There seems to be a space on the medals where I hope we will eventually be sent a sticker with our time on it.
The rider tracking app and consequently the Canadian website currently list anyone with tracking data at the finish control as a finisher, but many turned round half way to Brest and steadily worked their way back to Rambouillet. I’ve also noticed several other riders who struggled to Brest, but then probably caught the train back yet still went over the tracking mat at the finish.
Conversely some riders would have had duff tracking chips and were shown as waiting to start even though they had their cards stamped all the way round. A few missed the final tracking time by going straight from the apparent finish to the bike park and on to get their card stamped.
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The first electronically-recorded HD would have been 80 hours and 1 second after 16.00 on the Sunday, so midnight Wednesday for an A group rider. The last would have been around 5pm on the Thursday, which is when the timing operatives switched the equipment off. All subsequent HDs won't be visible on this scrape.
I've had reports of medals being handed out on the Friday, so there'll be a lot more HDs. Riders can also collect proof of passage if controls are closed. All this can be a bit upsetting for those who see PBP as a sort of graduate qualification in cycling, as it seems like grade inflation. I take a more relaxed attitude, as I did two before this trend set in, in 2007.
getting a medal =/= being a finisher. As long as they don't appear on the finishers list as successful, I think a little bit a metal for riding 1220km is fine and hardly counts as grade inflation. Especially as they had them made prior to the event, what are they going to do? destroy the extras?
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The medals used to be posted back with your brevet card (hence made to order). Now it is all about the selfie at the finish, it seems.
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We give a medal to anyone who completes LEL, regardless of their time. We also gave medals to a select few honourable failures, on the understanding they treated them as mementos.
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The medals used to be posted back with your brevet card (hence made to order). Now it is all about the selfie at the finish, it seems.
The old french guy was keen to put the medal over my head rather than just hand it over. It seemed to mean more to him than to me. It’s actually a nice touch since the finish is often an anticlimactic experience. It’s probably the least ugly of my four medals.
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The medals were only dished out after checking brevet cards. If they wanted to limit who got them, they could have. Maybe they even did?
Having a medal put round your neck is a standard part of any running event and a lot of cycling events (I'm a casual runner, and I have *stacks* of them). Receiving them in the post later would seem rather silly.
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The last would have been around 5pm on the Thursday, which is when the timing operatives switched the equipment off. All subsequent HDs won't be visible on this scrape.
The last recorded OTL in the pbpresults site is 96:15:19 (page 156) so the timing equipment must have been left running till then which is about 1700 Thursday as you say but not as "fair" for group V starters as it would only be 92 hours for them, disadvantage for later starters, will have to remember that for 2023.
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So running races hand out medals on the finish line. PBP isn’t a race or require running, so doesn’t need to be the same. Meh.
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The last would have been around 5pm on the Thursday, which is when the timing operatives switched the equipment off. All subsequent HDs won't be visible on this scrape.
The last recorded OTL in the pbpresults site is 96:15:19 (page 156) so the timing equipment must have been left running till then which is about 1700 Thursday as you say but not as "fair" for group V starters as it would only be 92 hours for them, disadvantage for later starters, will have to remember that for 2023.
It has to be up until the closing time for the last 84hr so any 90 hour riders could have been significantly over and still been timed.
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Our original plan had been to cover the HD aspect, and get some more interviews up to lunchtime on the Friday. Sadly one of Heather's friends of very long standing had died a week before PBP. The funeral was at 1am on the Friday, and Heather had a eulogy to deliver. The timing was so tight that we had to adopt the switch-off of the timing equipment as the de-facto finish, and miss the closing ceremony and buffet.
An A group rider could have been 17 hours OTL, and still trigger all the timing. I assume that the timing company started at Brest at the cut-off time and picked up the equipment on the way. Alwyn has clearly had comments about the perceived unfairness of this asymmetry, as he addresses it in the FAQs on the LEL 2021 website.
Discussion of this on national websites would have primed riders to collect proof of passage in the face of closed controls. This shift has big implications in terms of souvenir-hunting. Those in search of a HD medal could still be relying on direction signs days later.
This issue doesn't arise on an event with a single start time. The controls can just close at the allotted time, which is handy if there's a cost attached. That's the way all the qualifiers should have operated.
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Some extra countries analysed:
Italy: 280 finished, 14 OTL/HD, 63 DNF, 19 DNS out of 376; 78% of starters finished in time
Spain: 196 finished, 7 OTL/HD, 54 DNF, 9 DNS out of 265; 77% of starters finished in time
Romania: 42 finished, 0 OTL/HD, 24 DNF, 1 DNS out of 67; 64% of starters finished in time
Denmark: 53 finished, 1 OTL/HD, 27 DNF, 4 DNS out of 85; 65% of starters finished in time
Belgium: 95 finished, 1 OTL/HD, 20 DNF, 3 DNS out of 119; 82% of starters finished in time
Russia: 128 finished, 6 OTL/HD, 58 DNF, 10 DNS out of 202; 67% of starters finished in time
Australia: 57 finished, 1 OTL/HD, 21 DNF, 6 DNS out of 85; 72% of starters finished in time
Austria: 51 finished, 2 OTL/HD, 7 DNF, 5 DNS out of 65; 85% of starters finished in time
Brazil: 79 finished, 6 OTL/HD, 41 DNF, 6 DNS out of 132; 63% of starters finished in time
Ukraine: 52 finished, 8 OTL/HD, 20 DNF, 3 DNS out of 83; 65% of starters finished in time
The results of Russia, Spain and Italy lead to a conclusion that climate wasn't the decidint factor in the high amount of DNF's of SE Asian riders
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I'm not surprised by the high Austrian finish rate. I rode on the back of a group between Villaines and La Hutte, and their riding was exemplary. Before anyone asks, I was carrying a press pass, which allowed me onto the route with any vehicle.
I'd disagree about the Spanish, Italians and Russians. Spain and Italy have abundant mountain ranges, where riders can practice climbing, and experience cold. The Russians are generally impervious to cold. At the check-in they didn't bother with waterproofs, and expressed a hope that it would keep raining, as it was like St Petersburg.
There were Russians from more remote republics, but the biggest contingents were from Baltic Star, and Moscow Caravan.
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The medals used to be posted back with your brevet card (hence made to order). Now it is all about the selfie at the finish, it seems.
The old french guy was keen to put the medal over my head rather than just hand it over. It seemed to mean more to him than to me. It’s actually a nice touch since the finish is often an anticlimactic experience. It’s probably the least ugly of my four medals.
I handed mine back and asked my guy to put it over my neck so I could film it! Haha. Loved it, felt like end of A New Hope.
Edit: Almost
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At club level it doesn't seem to let you build up a list of them in the same way you can of countries;
Ythan CC, West Lothian Clarion, Scottish Borders and Deeside Thistle have 100% records , but they were all or nothing :P
Audax Ecosse, Edinburgh RC and Highland CTC all lost 1 rider
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At club level it doesn't seem to let you build up a list of them in the same way you can of countries;
Ythan CC, West Lothian Clarion, Scottish Borders and Deeside Thistle have 100% records , but they were all or nothing :P
Audax Ecosse, Edinburgh RC and Highland CTC all lost 1 rider
Sorry sir, every time i take a blat at finding Scottish based riders I miss someone!
I only found out about the West Lothian Clarion rider as the jersey rose out of the grass from a snooze about 25m away from where I'd stopped for a pish after descending the roc on the return.
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Here the data used for my videos : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G4WiLxhEB2qzfTkP25YCoCGwsGknWVFOMqAEfWj5gPk/edit?usp=sharing
I removed name for GDPR.
Sadly, I've not included country during data scraping...
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The last recorded OTL in the pbpresults site is 96:15:19 (page 156) so the timing equipment must have been left running till then which is about 1700 Thursday as you say but not as "fair" for group V starters as it would only be 92 hours for them, disadvantage for later starters, will have to remember that for 2023.
Only if you enter planning to fail.
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I agree with FF. Worrying about how your ride gets recorded if you don’t finish in time is almost pointless. Finishing PBP inside time is very much the intent. Just let the cards fall as they may, if you don't finish inside your time limit.
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Reminds me of a "conversation" (or perhaps a monlogue) I overheard part of while scoffing food outside the Carefour City;
woman with a distinctly southern english accent bellowing out "You know many of the men don't want their wife here"
Actually, I was of the opposite view and I wanted my wife to see the start so that she had some idea of how big an event PBP was, why I was back for a third time and why I spent so much time preparing for it.
Compared to St Quinten and the velodrome starts the Sheepfold was a bit tame - no commentary or music, smaller crowd etc. so it didn't quite achieve that.
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My only experience of PBP as a hanger-on (in 2007) was very negative. Non-participants were rigorously excluded from the stadium and start compound before and during the event including all the registration etc. I could only go to the shopping centre and internet cafe and track my partner from there, and of course the tracking was far more rudimentary back then.
(I missed spectating the Start due to cycling some 30km out along the route to grab some nightfall action shots.)
(http://www.aukweb.net/pix2/11883421701-lead.jpg)
NB 2007
(http://www.aukweb.net/pix2/11883426827-circ.jpg)
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The start was a bit of a shambles, certainly for group K who were basically told "We're running about 5 minutes late so just go!"
so wouldn't say you missed much.