Gmail and Mac Mail syncing for idiots

[slope]

I've used several Gmail email accounts for years. I use Mac Mail on the main iMac (Ventura 13.6.4). All works fine between the two.

I've just installed Mac Mail on an iPad (iPad OS 17.3)  and iPhone (iOS 17.3), as I realised I prefer the interface.

Mail comes in and out ok. I tend to delete a huge amount of mail that is irrelevant after reading. BUT the deleted emails don't delete on the other two devices - so it's tedious to say the least, to have to delete the same mail on 3 'machines'.

What's the difference between POP and IMAP? Logging in to Gmail via a browser and selecting ACCOUNTS shows my email addresses are running POP. In Mac Mail - SETTINGS - ACCOUNTS it too shows email addresses using POP and the same addresses are listed separately with an IMAP label and are IMAP inactive.

Should I 'activate' IMAP and turn off POP? Will that bu**er things up?   

Would that mean deleted emails will sync automatically between iMac, iPad and iPhone?

I've spent an hour or so 'searching' all the usual places, but as usual I can't make any sense of the language/information cos it isn't for idiots🙄

[grams]

POP is a simpler protocol that only synchronises your inbox and can’t synchronise stored mail folders, so you should be using IMAP, which is a full fledged multi mailbox synchronization protocol.

Alternatively install the native Gmail app unless you have a specific reason to use Apple Mail.

[slope]

Thanks grams  Yes I prefer the Mac Mail interface to the native Gmail

[chrisbainbridge]

IMAP works fine. I have multiple gmail accounts working in outlook on 2 PCs, an iMac, MacBook, iPad and iPhone.
If you go to mail and add an account I think it defaults to imap but somebody clever will be along soon.

[PaulF]

I just used the Mail app "wizard" selected GMail, gave it user name and password and the mail just works.

[Mr Larrington]

Occasionally iOS Mail refuses to remove Stuffs from the “Deleted” folder, or rather it pretends to have deleted it only for them to reappear the next time you look.  And if you use a webby interface to nuke the offending items once and for all, they’re not on the server at all.

[Kim]

POP is a simpler protocol that only synchronises your inbox and can’t synchronise stored mail folders, so you should be using IMAP, which is a full fledged multi mailbox synchronization protocol.

Crucially, POP predates the idea of emails being accessed with more than one client, so you end up with either emails being deleted from the server, so if you do use more than one client you tend to end up with the first client to access them getting the only copy; or leaving all messages on the server, so the other clients get the messages, but don't know what's already been read and deleted (which is the OP's problem).  It doesn't support folders.

There's approximately zero reason to be using POP for anything in 2024.

IMAP is designed for the use-case where you keep all your messages on the server, so all clients know what's been read, sorted or deleted.  It works well, in spite of efforts by the likes of Microsoft and Google to make it as difficult as possible.

[slope]

Thank you Kim and all I will update myself and emailery to 2024, now that I understand.

Hopefully I've done right?

In Mail preferences/settings, I've disabled POP and enabled IMAP for each account.

In Gmail who is my email provider (via browser) I've changed the settings there from POP to IMAP on each account.

Each account took some time to 'download'? the IMAP stuff!

Fingers crossed all devices will now sync the deleting of emails with only one fell swoop?

[Kim]

Each account took some time to 'download'? the IMAP stuff!

Yes, that will be normal.  You've presumably got zillions if not squillions of messages in your Gmail account, and the IMAP client will have to access all of them in order to present you with a list of what's in each folder.   (To be fair, if you set up a fresh POP client, it would also have to do this.)

It will likely cache the headers (if not the entire messages) so you only end up downloading the messages that have changed in future, which is much faster.

If a message disappears from the server (because you've moved or deleted it using something else), the IMAP client will determine this the next time it connects, and remove it from its cache automagically, which is the synchronisation behaviour you're after.

[slope]

🙏 Thanks all for helping bring shared happiness to all Slope's devices - everything works and syncs a treat

IMAP therefore ISMILE

[Horizon]

Very long time Mac user and I’ve been using POP3 since even Apple Mail was a thing - Eudora anyone? I do get the impression I should move fully onto IMAP ... but I'm always worried about losing stuff when someone turns a switch off!

I use POP3 for mail to and from my own domain, and also IMAP for Mail and Gmail, all accessed via Apple Mail. I have an ordered filing system in the Mail programme and everything is filed. I’m never quite sure if moving an IMAP email away from the Inbox to a folder means it’s stored locally rather than online? Also, for some less than obvious reason, I also get multiple copies of each Gmail email into Mail which I can’t see a way to stop - as said above, deleting the same thing several times is tedious.

[Feanor]

If the mail provider for your own domain supports IMAP, and I can't think of any reason it wouldn't, then yes. Use IMAP.
POP3 is a long depreciated protocol, there is no good reason you should be using it.

[sam]

Eudora anyone?

<Raises hand>

[hbunnet]

If the mail provider for your own domain supports IMAP, and I can't think of any reason it wouldn't, then yes. Use IMAP.
POP3 is a long depreciated protocol, there is no good reason you should be using it.

I see that, but where is the data stored? I have a domain and the provider supports IMAP but with very little storage.  I admit to not having looked into this deeply.

[Kim]

I’m never quite sure if moving an IMAP email away from the Inbox to a folder means it’s stored locally rather than online?

Depends on whether you move it to a folder on the IMAP server^[1] (in which case it's stored there) or a local folder in your email client (in which case it's stored locally).  Indeed, if you have more than one IMAP server configured it's also possible to move mail from one IMAP server to another, which can be useful when moving to a new mail provider or something.

I don't know Apple Mail, but in most desktop mail clients folders are displayed hierarchically, so it should be clear what belongs to what.  On the other hand, Apple have been making their user interfaces progressively worse over the last few years, so anything's possible...


_{[1] There's one of those arbitrary convention things where folders can be on the same level of the IMAP hierarchy as the inbox, or subfolders of the inbox.  Most decent clients and servers can support either, but I'm of the considered opinion that subfolders of the inbox are a great way to lose email by accident.}

[Feanor]

If the mail provider for your own domain supports IMAP, and I can't think of any reason it wouldn't, then yes. Use IMAP.
POP3 is a long depreciated protocol, there is no good reason you should be using it.

I see that, but where is the data stored? I have a domain and the provider supports IMAP but with very little storage.  I admit to not having looked into this deeply.

With IMAP, the basic model is that the mail lives on the server, where multiple clients can see it.

Individual clients will cache copies of it locally, to different degrees.
Desktop clients like Thunderbird may have stored copies of the entire contents.
Mobile clients on phones may only store a record of the last 50 or so e-mails.

A retail IMAP mail provider will have enough storage for normal domestic use.

[Jaded]

If the mail provider for your own domain supports IMAP, and I can't think of any reason it wouldn't, then yes. Use IMAP.
POP3 is a long depreciated protocol, there is no good reason you should be using it.

I see that, but where is the data stored? I have a domain and the provider supports IMAP but with very little storage.  I admit to not having looked into this deeply.

Ask them for more. Or go into their web interface on a new browser, with a new id and see what they offer new customers. I’d expect 1GB per email account.

And, for everyone on an imap email thingy, get an email archiver. 

[hbunnet]

Thanks folks, I'll look further.

[Horizon]

All useful stuff for sure. Is Authenticated SMTP needed for IMAP? My provider likes to charge a premium for this, which irks. Likewise, they offer DMARC, at no cost, but also with no laymans explanation that I can understand, save to think that I don't need it.

[Kim]

All useful stuff for sure. Is Authenticated SMTP needed for IMAP?

Apples and oranges.

IMAP is for accessing your inbox and folders.

In a consumer context, SMTP is the thing you use to send emails to the server that passes them on to wherever they need to go (which is also done using SMTP).  Because spam, SMTP relay servers will restrict who is allowed to send emails to the wider internet through them.  Usually an ISP will allow anything coming from its own customers' IP addresses without any authentication, but if you want to use it from outside their network (eg. from J Random mobile or WiFi connection) you'll need to authenticate so it knows that you're a customer, not some random spammer.

If the SMTP server is provided by someone other than a connectivity provider (eg. Google), then you'll always need to authenticate.

So yeah, you don't need authenticated SMTP to use IMAP, but you might need it to send emails from your phone when away from home, or whatever.

[Feanor]

All useful stuff for sure. Is Authenticated SMTP needed for IMAP? My provider likes to charge a premium for this, which irks. Likewise, they offer DMARC, at no cost, but also with no laymans explanation that I can understand, save to think that I don't need it.

IMAP is for your inbound mail.
SMTP is for mail you send, outbound.
They are not really directly related.

SMTP is historically not authenticated.
But this has become a problem, allowing spammers to relay mail through unauthenticated outbound servers.

So these days, ISPs will only allow unauthenticated SMTP (outbound) mail from their customers, on their internal IP addresses.
If you try to connect from outside your ISP, eg from a phone on a 4G network, they will reject it.

To allow for this, you need to enable SMTP authentication.
Then, your phone can send mail whilst connected to the Internet from external IP addresses.

And DMARC: Just enable it if it's a check-box.
It's beyond the scope of this post to say what it does, but if it's not enabled then big mail providers like gmail will reject your mail.

[Horizon]

That makes sense to me (just!) and explains why gmail and apple mail don't make anything of it, but namesco like to charge for SMTP. All the more reason then to look at using Apple's custom email domain (I have iCloud+), using the domain I have, if I can figure how to do it ...

[Feanor]

I've not used gmail or apple mail, but since they are not ISPs, and you will always be connecting from an 'external' random Internet location, then they will be using authenticated SMTP.

It seems a bit strange to me that your mail provider would want to charge for what is a very basic and standard function.

[Horizon]

Strange indeed, welcome to names.co.uk, where everything costs more than everything else, and from which I'm withdrawing as fast as I can without hopefully breaking something. £44 a year for smtp.

[Jaded]

It's beyond the scope of this post to say what it does, but if it's not enabled then big mail providers like gmail will reject your mail.

Whilst at the same time, with no hint of irony, being the biggest source of spam emails at the moment.