Pacing on Longer DIY's

[quixoticgeek]

So after the suggestion that I'm trying to goto Mars[1] rather than on an Audax. I've kinda been playing around with routes for a DIY from Amsterdam to Mars-sous-Bourcq in the Ardennes region of France[2]. Avoiding ferries, the route is 801km, which some lumpy bits (Ardennes are hilly, who knew...) The lumps can be avoided a bit at the cost of extra distance (adds 50-100km, depending on if avoiding both North and southbound).

Parallel to this a friend contacted me about doing a DIY 600. I pointed out that if they weren't too held up on the exact 600 number, if they made it a 700, they would get a lower average speed target.

These two things got me thinking. For longer DIY's of 700/800/900/1000 How do people like to pace things out ? Do you aim for 3 equal-ish segments with a 4-5 hour nap between each segment? Or a longer first day, then shorter days after? How do other people plan their longer DIY's?

Thanks

J


[1]Thanks autocarrot for correcting that to bars when I first wrote it...
[2]This is how I ended up going to Hell last year.

[tonyh]

It's in the Regs at https://www.audax.uk/media/1959/auk-regulationsfeb2019.pdf

The bit you want is this:

9.7.1 The minimum speeds are:
- for events registered as 200 to 600 km – set by the organiser within the range 14.3 to 15
kph;  [for DIYs it's 14.3] [If the entered distance is eg 690km, the ride is a 600; the 14.3 applies to the whole 690km].
- for events registered as 700 to 1200 km - 13-1/3 kph;
- for events registered as 1300 to 1800 km - 12 kph;
- for events registered as 1900 to 2400 km - 10 kph; and
- for events registered as 2500 km and over - 8-1/3 kph.

[for DIYs of less than 200km it's 10km/hour]

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I plan on riding a bit stronger on the first day but minimising sleep deprivation as much as possible. That means as much sleep as is sensible to stay within control times, from the first night onwards.

[quixoticgeek]

It's in the Regs at https://www.audax.uk/media/1959/auk-regulationsfeb2019.pdf

The bit you want is this:

9.7.1 The minimum speeds are:
- for events registered as 200 to 600 km – set by the organiser within the range 14.3 to 15
kph;  [for DIYs it's 14.3] [If the entered distance is eg 690km, the ride is a 600; the 14.3 applies to the whole 690km].
- for events registered as 700 to 1200 km - 13-1/3 kph;
- for events registered as 1300 to 1800 km - 12 kph;
- for events registered as 1900 to 2400 km - 10 kph; and
- for events registered as 2500 km and over - 8-1/3 kph.

[for DIYs of less than 200km it's 10km/hour]

Yes, except that isn't an answer to the question I asked. I know the time limits for 700/800/900 are 52:38, 60:09, and 67:30 hours respectively. But, if you were to ride an 800 with a 60 hour time limit. Where would you stop at the end of day 1 for a nap? Where on day 2? This is what I'm asking. I know it's subjective, and that everyone is different, but I'm curious what approaches people take.

J

[quixoticgeek]

I plan on riding a bit stronger on the first day but minimising sleep deprivation as much as possible. That means as much sleep as is sensible to stay within control times, from the first night onwards.

Makes sense. With a DIY by GPS, there's no cut off for controls in the middle AFAIK, which means there's no cut offs to worry about.

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Yes but falling behind the minimum average can make things tight at the finish if anything goes wrong (and often something does). Staying ahead of the minimum speed all the way (including stops) makes for a more relaxed ride.

[Wycombewheeler]

Yes but falling behind the minimum average can make things tight at the finish if anything goes wrong (and often something does). Staying ahead of the minimum speed all the way (including stops) makes for a more relaxed ride.

I think as long as you're back ahead of the line by lunchtime things shouldn't be tough at the finish. If we consider an 800 with 60 hours. That could be 12 hours to do 270 followed by 12 hours off and repeat. So each day you need to do a third but when you get back on the bike on day 2 (assuming 24 hours after starting) you should have covered 2/5 and on the third morning you might have ridden 67% but the min speed line would require 80%

Personally I would ensure I had less to do on the last day so time shouldn't be a problem so maybe 275km 275km 250km if you need more than 12 hours to do 250km you can either set off a little earlier on the third day or split 280 280 240

I've never done this. I cant see anh reason for long DIYs but it's fairly similar to planning a super randonee which also has a 60 hour limit. (3days, 2 nights)

I dont think a 700 gets easier than a 600 because although the average speed drops your gained time is essentially when you would like to be asleep. While a 600 allows you to ride 06:00 to midnight and then 06:00 to 22:00

Pushing to 700 means riding 06:00 to midnight twice and then 06:00 to 10:30. If you need the extra 2 hours on day 2 to reach 600 those 4.5 hours will be challenging for the 100 AND it will be 2 nights without enough sleep instead of one.  For a 600 I would look to do 340km to 350km on day 1

[Ben T]

With 60 hours if you started 6 am Saturday you have got till 6pm on Monday evening to finish right?
Personally I would want less than 200 to do on day 3, that's just me, other strategies are valid and might work better for you.
But I would split it as maybe 340/240/120, but I would say don't be tempted to make day 1 any longer than 350 as then you are getting in too late.
Have your first control on day 2 at around 390 - 50km into the day - you have till 11.15am to reach it. You could feasibly make that by setting off as late as 8am, but I would aim to set off between 6 and 7am to be comfortable. If you're strong ish on day 1 that allows for a good sleep the first night.
Remember, while you're riding you're almost certainly likely to be making up time... BUT, possibly only slowly, depending on the conditions, so best not to rely on this, so as not to put pressure on yourself.

[tonyh]

It's in the Regs at https://www.audax.uk/media/1959/auk-regulationsfeb2019.pdf

The bit you want is this:

9.7.1 The minimum speeds are:
- for events registered as 200 to 600 km – set by the organiser within the range 14.3 to 15
kph;  [for DIYs it's 14.3] [If the entered distance is eg 690km, the ride is a 600; the 14.3 applies to the whole 690km].
- for events registered as 700 to 1200 km - 13-1/3 kph;
- for events registered as 1300 to 1800 km - 12 kph;
- for events registered as 1900 to 2400 km - 10 kph; and
- for events registered as 2500 km and over - 8-1/3 kph.

[for DIYs of less than 200km it's 10km/hour]

Yes, except that isn't an answer to the question I asked. I know the time limits for 700/800/900 are 52:38, 60:09, and 67:30 hours respectively. But, if you were to ride an 800 with a 60 hour time limit. Where would you stop at the end of day 1 for a nap? Where on day 2? This is what I'm asking. I know it's subjective, and that everyone is different, but I'm curious what approaches people take.

J

Ah yes, I was trying to answer what I thought was an implied question in the first part of your post - I see now you hadn't asked it. Sorry to have cluttered up your thread!

(I'll leave my post there hoping the info may be useful to some.)

On the actual question: When I need sleep I usually have to get some quickly. Even if it were only a few miles to a planned stop, often I'd be unable to continue safely.

[mattc]

I think the biggest factors are:
- bio-rivums: are you an early riser? how much sleep do you need, and when do you most find you need it?
- what start times are practicable, and where are the sleep stops you can use? (the latter may of course be: I'll bivvy when I need to!)

The beauty of DIY (vs calendar events) being that you can plan around the above, as opposed to planning to what the organiser has laid on

[I prefer an even-ish pacing where possible - if that means I'm technically "out of time" for a few hours after a snooze, so be it. But of course if the 2nd half of a ride had *all* the hills, this wouldn't be wise!]

[FifeingEejit]

A quick look says the first and last days are significantly flat, with the hills slap bang in the middle.
Depending on how you climb and descend that's going to be the "slowest" day.

I'd be wanting to build up as much of a time buffer as I could on the flat, but I'm terrible on the climbs.

[Diesel]

I've done a couple of DIYs over 600 and   I would definitely make the first days longer than the last, so don't just split it into even chunks.

I know my pace is slower at the end than the start so I plan for this.

It also build in some contingency so that if you lose some time there is more chance of making up that time.

I also look at where are logical places to overnight. So I wouldn't necessarily make day 1 the longest. Last year day 2 was the longest. Having a good place to stop whether that is food, shelter or whatever is useful. Also you might want to avoid being in remote or mountainous terrain overnight.

The other thing to consider is that there are few opportunities for food and refreshments overnight in France so that may affect the planning and consequently the length of each day.

[Wobbly]

I plan on riding a bit stronger on the first day but minimising sleep deprivation as much as possible.

Ordinarily I'd be in complete agreement with the esteemed LWaB. However I think it's fair to say QG is no ordinary randonneur.

QG's quite remarkable performance in the latter days of this year's Race around The Netherlands showed that sleep deprivation appears to be something QG can cope with better than most

In general it's still always better to minimise sleep deprivation of course 

[Phil W]

As above, you have completed Ratn, so must have a fair idea of what works for you. Personally I try to maximise daylight riding unless the temperatures are high in which case I prefer sleeping mid afternoon and riding through the night.  I like to build up a decent buffer before sleep then set off again with a certain amount of time still ahead of the time limit.

If I want to cover a decent distance on the first day before a stop then I will do an evening start as I find riding through a night when fresh is easier than after riding say 300km already. Have done starts at 6pm, 8pm, 11pm, and 6am on DIYs depending on how far I wanted to cover (on first leg) and where and when I wanted to stop. Evening starts often allow you to cover at least 400km then stop eat and have a decent sleep at a hotel before an early start into the following dawn.

[arabella]

You'll get as many suggestions as answers.  Do what works for you given the terrain and distance. 

eg for a 1000 I reckoned I would use all of the 75 hours and that with my pace it was best to go from lunchtime (thus start after a good night's sleep) to lunchtime and have only one proper sleep stop (else poor value for money if I'm only there 3 hours)
I looked at how long I might get to sleep on nights 1 and 3 and decided that for me the best option was:
- about 200km and 40 winks in a chair ca. 2am
- another <mumble> km to arrive evening of day 2 at B&B ca 7pm, sleep for the next 12 hours [I think I'd done about 540km by then]
- do the remaining 460km with another snooze in a different chair (a less comfy one, I didn't actually find a chair so perched on a bin in the middle of the fens, lucky me)

It depends on what your sleep options are tbh

[Andy C]

Done a few longer DIYs.
800's, 1000's, 1200's & 1400's

Main points I would pass on is use a few 400's & 600's DIY's to experiment & find out what really does and does not work for you.
Use your house as a rest control to make these experiments economical & flexible.
Doesn't matter if you fuck up on these, its about learning new things.
(I discovered sleeping at 330km on a 600 works for me. I'd rather ride 270km on day 2 feeling refreshed than only ride 200km, but feeling shite)


On DIY's there are not the control windows to gauge progress so you have to figure out something else.
Time is the obvious solution for me.
Calculate maximum time allowance based on average speeds, then work backwards.
Frame it as a time allowance, NEVER a time limit. That way it is an asset working for you and not a liability working against you.
Use a timeline to plan but make it a flexible plan and not a rigid one.
A timeline both helps at the pre-ride planning stage and also while on the road.
eg. If you have 28 hours time allowance on a 400 and you start at 5am, you have until 9am following day.
Once moving, use a Garmin estimated time of finish to gauge how you are doing. You'll soon work out how much time you have in hand.
I visualise a clockface to do these calculations and it has proved an incredibly useful method to compare maximum finish time vs. most likely finish time.


Time sleep into complete 90 minutes cycles to minimise chances of waking from deep sleep. (google:sleep inertia)
Ideally I want 4.5 hours sleep a night on longer DIY's but realistically it's more likely to be 3 hours or maybe only 1.5 if I've had mechanicals, headwind or just feeling rubbish.
The timeline & the Allowance/Garmin ETA is ideal to work out how much sleep you can have.

Accommodation:
Pre-booked Travelodge/Premier Inn are bril and cosy but less flexible.
A bivvy kit is more flexible but less bril and defo less cosy.


cheers,
Andy