Author Topic: Ready the flashing lights, party poppers, dancing girls and brass band...  (Read 87725 times)

I suspect that an inverted twist-grip shifter is going to make a bar-end shifter on the same bar rather tricky, though (well, it's going to need an inch or so of bar for its cable to disappear into a hole above the shifter).  The cable issue can probably be handled by a nice wide loop - which will have to clear the brake lever - secured with cable ties lower down the bar.  Nasty-looking, but might work.

You could probably take the cable out of a bar end lever the wrong way around, with a little bit of creativity.  It would look a little odd, but assuming that the upward loop didn't foul on anything, it would allow you to mount a twist grip almost immediately below a bar end.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Or just get some Shimano Di2 kit. :demon:

Bike electrics are tricksy and faily compared to good mechanical mods...
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
You could probably take the cable out of a bar end lever the wrong way around, with a little bit of creativity.  It would look a little odd, but assuming that the upward loop didn't foul on anything, it would allow you to mount a twist grip almost immediately below a bar end.

I'm really beginning to wish I hadn't binned that crash-damaged one now...

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Problem is (at least the way I was thinking of it) I had the servo pulling the cable of a standard mech. Trouble is it must maintain the pull indefinately against the mech spring. So 2A continuous. Needs a big battery.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Wouldn't work through the full range of a bar end lever, the cable will get in the way.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Problem is (at least the way I was thinking of it) I had the servo pulling the cable of a standard mech. Trouble is it must maintain the pull indefinately against the mech spring. So 2A continuous. Needs a big battery.

D'oh.  Of course.  So, in the absence of mechanical voodoo, only really sensible with a Rohloff or something.

ETA: So what you actually do is servo-ify a shifter, rather than the cable directly.  Probably most likely to work with a good old-fashioned thumb shifter.  You'd still do the indexing in software, so a friction shifter would be fine.  Assuming there's enough force to make it work, of course.

Again spending your money!

What about the new Alfine 11?


tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Alfine 11 is significantly cheaper than Rholoff (and I will be fitting when the current cassette needs replacing) but is still spendy.

Servoising a friction shift would work if servo has enough torque, but you have to overcome the spring force, and friction force. I thought about servoing an indexing thumb shifter. Should be possible to come up with an arrangemement where servo in one derection shifts up (and then back to center). Other direction shifts down.

As with all these things, the electronics is relatively easy. The mechanical coupling less so.

Isn't the point of using a Rohloff that it doesn't have a return spring, like most hub gears tend to have, hence the need for two cables, one for the force in each direction.

This would remove the requirement to have the servo under significant force all the time, and reduce the power consumption (and heating!) of the servo.  You'd still have to overcome the friction element, which would not be insignificant, but by housing the unit as near to the changer as possible you would remove the cable friction that is quite a large element in most peoples gear changing systems, especially after it's aged a bit.

(Has anyone ever done hydraulic gear changing instead of cables?)
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Hydraulic shifting has popped up several times over the last three decades but it has never taken off. I suspect that electronic shifting will become widespread within the next decade.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Hydraulic shifting has popped up several times over the last three decades but it has never taken off. I suspect that electronic shifting will become widespread within the next decade.

I just had a quick google around, and 5rot seem to have been the most recent to do it, four or five years ago.  I guess like many things in bicycles, it's been invented over and over again, and eventually may take off.  Things like clipless pedals, shaft and belt drive have all been "invented" umpteen times, although clipless pedals is the only one of those three to significantly succeed.

As you say, electronic shifting is very likely to have most of the advantages of hydraulic shifting, without all the faffing about with seals, and the potential for leaks.  Once it's been used enough in the pro-racing teams, and the rich early adopters, hopefully it'll filter down to us mere mortals, who don't want to spend several thousand on the gear changers alone!  I really like the idea of a self calibrating changer. :)

Of course electronic shifting would also have massive benefits to recumbent and tandem cyclists, where the long cable runs often make their changers even less reliable than those on more conventional bikes.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Of course electronic shifting would also have massive benefits to recumbent and tandem cyclists, where the long cable runs often make their changers even less reliable than those on more conventional bikes.

There is a slight problem for human power fundamentalists with it though. In most recumbent/human power races you are not allowed to use them, because they're obviously not human powered   :P
Maybe if you can make it work with the power of a dynamo...
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. It has been too many days since I have ridden through the night with a brevet card in my pocket...

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
So are battery lights also not allowed?

Servoising a friction shift would work if servo has enough torque, but you have to overcome the spring force, and friction force. I thought about servoing an indexing thumb shifter. Should be possible to come up with an arrangemement where servo in one derection shifts up (and then back to center). Other direction shifts down.

As with all these things, the electronics is relatively easy. The mechanical coupling less so.

I've done a (very bad) sketch. The trick is in fixing shifter and servo together securly, and allowing the pull wires to go slack without becoming misplaced. (and having sufficient torque)


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
There is a slight problem for human power fundamentalists with it though. In most recumbent/human power races you are not allowed to use them, because they're obviously not human powered   :P
Maybe if you can make it work with the power of a dynamo...

That doesn't seem particularly tricky.  I'm fairly sure I've read about a Shimano? system for automatic gear changes that only uses battery power to maintain settings.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Shimano had an electronically shifted 4 sp internal hub nearly a decade ago that either changed gears automatically on the basis of speed or rider controlled push buttons. Shimano has also created a Nexus electronic shifter powered by the dynohub.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
I've done a (very bad) sketch. The trick is in fixing shifter and servo together securly, and allowing the pull wires to go slack without becoming misplaced. (and having sufficient torque)



A trigger shifter set up like that would avoid the need for the electronics to understand more than "shift up" and "shift down", but as has been repeatedly said, electronics are easy.

I was thinking a traditional thumb shifter like we had in the 80s would be a lot simpler to interface mechanically.  If the torque was sufficient you could probably even couple it directly to the servo arm.  Intuitively, a non-indexed shifter should require less torque?


tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
I would think not.. If non indexed, then it must be friction - and the servo must overcome the spring on the gear mech AND the friction in the shifter. An indexed shifter has no "extra" friction, and uses a rachet type mechanism to hold against the spring force.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Ah, I see what you mean.  Hmm.  Never a spring balance around when you need one, is there?

clarion

  • Tyke
I'm surprised you don't have one immediately to hand.
Getting there...

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Ah - now there's an idea. Balance the mech spring with another spring pulling the friction shifter in the other direction. Then the servo only needs to overcome the friction.

Getting a bit complex now though.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Mavic have had at least two goes at introducing electronic shifting but neither was terribly successful.  I knew of a USAnian chap who treated himself to a set just before his PBP qualifying 600 in, IIRC, 1995.  It drowned and he was over the time limit :-\
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What about the Shimano Di2?
I have not seen it, but it is supposed to work with buttons - one up, the other for downshift and the battery serving it should be ok for quite a few miles.

For the energy concious there even is a rear-hub-dynamo to power it (which a german bent-rider uses to power his LED-front-lights - which is why I know about all this)

Lots of fun tomorrow, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the perfect match.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
I have just been to the shops and obtained various forms of barakta-overclocking fuel.  Just need to charge some batteries and work out where my driving licence went, and we're all set.    :thumbsup:

I have just been to the shops and obtained various forms of barakta-overclocking fuel.  Just need to charge some batteries and work out where my driving licence went, and we're all set.    :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :D :thumbsup: :D :thumbsup:
Quote from: Kim
^ This woman knows what she's talking about.

What about the Shimano Di2?
I have not seen it, but it is supposed to work with buttons - one up, the other for downshift and the battery serving it should be ok for quite a few miles.

We talked a bit about Di2 a few pages back, and the Di2 groupset is around £1500, which is a mite expensive for something that you're going to start taking apart immediately. For a test of a Baraktamobile, it's probably an unrealistic expenditure.
Actually, it is rocket science.