Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: Jonah on 20 September, 2015, 03:03:58 pm
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There appear to be shed-loads of models available - please could anybody suggest a decent one so I don't waste my money?
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Most people buy one and put up with it, I think! :)
Here's a very good buyers guide. A bit US-centric but I think if you pick your budget and buy Ray's recommendation you could do a lot worse.
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/2014-winter-trainer-recommendations.html
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Ray's based in Paris, so his recommendations definitely reference what's available in Europe. Also, if you buy through his site you can get some useful discounts. His reviews are very, very thorough, but he rarely looks at cheap stuff.
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Kickr is really good piece of kit. I use it far more than I ever used my old turbo.
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Thanks very much folks (also been looking at a Tacx - any good?)
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Kickr is really good piece of kit. I use it far more than I ever used my old turbo.
And it's only £900!
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Presumably Jonah will want something that doesn't need a geared bike (Kickr needs a parallelogram equipped bike), unless there's a dirty secret hiding in the back of his shed?.....
I used a Tacx Bushido - it was good, but I hated it and prefer to be cold, wet and miserable rather than hot, wet and very miserable.
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There is a new, cheaper and more conventional (wheel-driven, so fixed/single-speed compatible) version of the Wahoo Kickr - the Snap Smart, which is about £600. Not cheap by most standards, but very capable and excellent in combination with Zwift, TrainerRoads, Sufferfest etc.
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Okay, rather than just recommend a web site, I'll recommend a type of trainer.
The key to good training with a turbo trainer is consistency of setup. So, you want to pump the tyre up to the same pressure each time and adjust the tension of the tyre onto the roller at the exact same level each time. The first of these is easy, the second not so easy. Which is why I like the type of turbo I have.
It's an Elite Supercrono PowerMag and, rather than having a fixed triangle to hold the wheel, it is hinged. This means that the pressure of the wheel on the tyre comes from the user's weight, not from a tension dial. So, as long as you don't fluctuate in weight too much, the tension of the tyre onto the roller should be consistent between work outs.
I don't know if I'd recommend my exact model of trainer, though. It has too much plastic and the cable snapped off inside which was then a pain to open and reattach a new cable. I'd probably buy one without a cable now - such as the Power Fluid version of this trainer.
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I have the BKool turbo, which also uses body weight to provide the wheel/roller friction. It's ok when seated, but it definitely does not work when standing as your weight transfers forward and the tyre will slip on the roller, which is very frustrating!
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Most people hate the turbo, and there are, like exercise bikes, way more turbos sitting unused in lofts than being regularly ridden.
If I were you I'd buy the cheapest non-shit one you can find on ebay, and then if it turns out you're one of the few who can stomach it, sell it and buy a good one. There's no point in dropping £500+ on a decent one if you ride it twice and get no benefit from it.
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I found that rollers gave me a much greater feeling of 'riding the bike', and the Elite Arione Digital I settled on have a degree of wireless resistance variability. Sadly, their Private Ant system means that the resistance can't be controlled by the apps I mentioned above, but a more basic set can be used using the 'virtual power' system. Of course, if you have a power meter then any turbo or roller can be used with those apps (Zwift converts power to speed appropriate for the gradient vice varying the turbo resistance, for example).
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If I were you I'd buy the cheapest non-shit one you can find ............
And I have just the range in terms of:
Taxc Turbo Swing going for a song:
http://images.evanscycles.com/product_image/image/154/721/7e2/26402/large/tacx-t1460-cycleforce-swing-turbo-trainer.jpg (http://images.evanscycles.com/product_image/image/154/721/7e2/26402/large/tacx-t1460-cycleforce-swing-turbo-trainer.jpg)
Tacx Eco Track rollers:
http://www.treefortbikes.com/images/raw/WT2062.jpg (http://www.treefortbikes.com/images/raw/WT2062.jpg)
Taxc rollers with fork stand so you don't have to learn to balance:
http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Tacx-Antares-Rollers-Trainer-T1000_49848.htm?sku=133245&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=AdwordsProductAds&utm_campaign=Adwords&gclid=CjwKEAjw1f6vBRC7tLqO_aih5WISJAAE0CYwCVfsRRuRzc2k8b2_mc9BWdInHI-rimCRjm8XgYt5thoCcAXw_wcB# (http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Tacx-Antares-Rollers-Trainer-T1000_49848.htm?sku=133245&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=AdwordsProductAds&utm_campaign=Adwords&gclid=CjwKEAjw1f6vBRC7tLqO_aih5WISJAAE0CYwCVfsRRuRzc2k8b2_mc9BWdInHI-rimCRjm8XgYt5thoCcAXw_wcB#)
http://www.bikeinn.com/bike/tacx-antares-fork-support/40420/p?utm_source=google_products&utm_medium=merchant&id_producte=205787&country=uk&gclid=CjwKEAjw1f6vBRC7tLqO_aih5WISJAAE0CYw2HtHEzVw0TuZ1WY8l-PP_6t2RSUg6jCEXEFHcGssKhoC0Hfw_wcB (http://www.bikeinn.com/bike/tacx-antares-fork-support/40420/p?utm_source=google_products&utm_medium=merchant&id_producte=205787&country=uk&gclid=CjwKEAjw1f6vBRC7tLqO_aih5WISJAAE0CYw2HtHEzVw0TuZ1WY8l-PP_6t2RSUg6jCEXEFHcGssKhoC0Hfw_wcB)
All have very little use.
Or purchase new for £49.99:
https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/specialbuys/thur-24-sep/product-detail/ps/p/turbo-trainer/ (https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/specialbuys/thur-24-sep/product-detail/ps/p/turbo-trainer/)
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Question for you Jonah. Are you going to fit one of your fixed bikes on there ?
If so issues I found were :-
- 120mm spaced frames won't clamp down in the jaws of the turbo which are designed to hold a road wheel with a QR skewer. You can buy some adaptors from Tacx which were something like 15 quid. They are oversized track nuts and will work with normal track hubs and not those with screw in bolts (Goldtec, Phil Wood).
- The fluid based trainers have increased resistance the faster your back wheel travels. Geared riders achieve this by changing gear and cadence to get the right level of workout. If you intend to use fixed and don't want to piss about changing sprockets as you get fitter then you need some sort of resistance to get a hard enough workout.
I bought a second hand elite fluid turbo with 5 resistance settings that work magnetically. On a 68" gear I could only just do intervals on setting number 4. I have never used setting 5.
Enjoy....
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Taxc Swing suitable for fixed as it has different resistance settings.
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Kickr Snap would in theory be suitable for fixed as it has electronically controlled resistance. I just use a geared bike for trainer work as things stand.
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Kickr Snap would in theory be suitable for fixed as it has electronically controlled resistance.
Can you override it or change it?
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Kickr Snap would in theory be suitable for fixed as it has electronically controlled resistance.
Can you override it or change it?
It’s similar to the Kickr, it has various modes. One is Erg mode where you have to produce a specific output. This means that if your cadence drops you have to push harder on the pedals. In this mode it doesn’t seem to matter which gear you select on a geared bike.
Another mode is resistance mode where you select from a number of levels. In these the work-rate is set by how hard you work. I think there’s also slope mode which simulates riding up a gradient.
In all these modes, it’s controlled from a smartphone or PC app. I use TrainerRoad in Erg mode almost exclusively; the only time I’m not in Erg mode is when doing a fitness test, in which case the effort level is set by how hard I can ride.
In TrainerRoad, when doing one of the workouts, if it’s too hard (or too easy), you can adjust the intensity of the workout in real time. There are other apps available, I only have experience of TrainerRoad.
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OMG - I've created a monster...
“A flash of lightning illuminated the turbo-trainer and discovered its shape plainly to me; its gigantic stature, and the deformity of its aspect, more hideous than belongs to humanity, instantly informed me that it was the wretch, the filthy demon to whom I had given life.”
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To expand on Simon's post, TrainerRoad (or similar) can control the resistance of the Kickr to achieve a specific power (which is set relative to your tested threshold power) so you follow the selected workout demands exactly. There's no need to adjust anything on the fly. TR can be used in conjunction with Sufferfest (or other) videos to produce structured workouts that have a degree of entertainment. Some other manufacturers have now enabled the Open Ant protocol so that their trainers can be similarly controlled - Tacx, Elite Real, CompuTrainer. None of these are cheap, but the interactivity makes it far more likely you'll use them!
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I’m waiting for an electrically braked turbo trainer where the user goes out on their real bike and does a coastdown test. The user inputs the times between speed gates and the machine’s software generates a polynomial expression to control wattage absorbed per speed.
When a hill is required, the software uses the vehicle’s mass to adjust the absorption of the brake.
When the unit knows the Distance/Elevation profile of a route, the machine adjusts the absorption accordingly. If higher workloads are required, ride faster.
The motor industry has only being doing this for thirty years.
Unless anyone out there knows of one.
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This is a brilliant thread and definitely what I need to read regarding my genesis day one single speed. I take i'll need some extensions so it can clamp the wheel solidly?
i am thinking of getting this one : http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-crono-fluid-elastogel-trainer/
along with.... http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tacx/axle-nuts-m10-x-1-ec042692 ?
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This is a brilliant thread and definitely what I need to read regarding my genesis day one single speed. I take i'll need some extensions so it can clamp the wheel solidly?
i am thinking of getting this one : http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-crono-fluid-elastogel-trainer/
along with.... http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tacx/axle-nuts-m10-x-1-ec042692 ?
I have both, but picked the turbo up second hand. I'm running 48*17 and rarely use a resistance level higher than 2. A few people have said they've noticed resistance drop off when it gets hot, but I've not seen the same.
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Thanks for the reply! I'll just have to wait till pay day next Wednesday and I'll get the lot and start zwifting at nights....
hmm just remembered my tires for the single is rather wide and thick. Have to change that as well.
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This is a brilliant thread and definitely what I need to read regarding my genesis day one single speed. I take i'll need some extensions so it can clamp the wheel solidly?
i am thinking of getting this one : http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-crono-fluid-elastogel-trainer/
along with.... http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tacx/axle-nuts-m10-x-1-ec042692 ?
I have both, but picked the turbo up second hand. I'm running 48*17 and rarely use a resistance level higher than 2. A few people have said they've noticed resistance drop off when it gets hot, but I've not seen the same.
I have the Elite Fluid, a very good turbo but it doesn't have resistance settings, you change the resistance by selecting different gears, so maybe not the best for riding fixed or SS
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This is a brilliant thread and definitely what I need to read regarding my genesis day one single speed. I take i'll need some extensions so it can clamp the wheel solidly?
i am thinking of getting this one : http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-crono-fluid-elastogel-trainer/
along with.... http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tacx/axle-nuts-m10-x-1-ec042692 ?
I have both, but picked the turbo up second hand. I'm running 48*17 and rarely use a resistance level higher than 2. A few people have said they've noticed resistance drop off when it gets hot, but I've not seen the same.
I have the Elite Fluid, a very good turbo but it doesn't have resistance settings, you change the resistance by selecting different gears, so maybe not the best for riding fixed or SS
Thanks for the update. I am still searching around for a decent one with resistance levers so something like this ?
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/elite-supercrono-mag-force-volare-bundle/rp-prod134952 which seems to indicate that I can change with a lever rather than gears?
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I didn't read my response properly. I have the Elite Chrono Elastogel, but it also has 5 magnetic resistance settings. I use the resistance now and again to vary workout, but if you race on fixed, as I do, you can workout at different cadences to simulate hills and headwinds.
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If I understand it correctly, a magnetic resistance unit will give a fixed resistance (or power) per setting, so let's say at resistance setting 3 it requires 200w to turn it. That'll be 200w at 100 rpm or 60 rpm, so probably ideal for fixed or SS, and changing gears on a geared bike will make no difference; 200w (or whatever) is what you get. On the other hand, a fluid trainer will give an increasing resistance as the rear wheel speed increases, so much better for use with a geared bike. If the resistance curve is known and repeatable, these trainers can be used by the various computer apps to give a 'virtual power' reading which, while not necessarily accurate, should be consistent and useful in determining improvement.
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If I understand it correctly, a magnetic resistance unit will give a fixed resistance (or power) per setting, so let's say at resistance setting 3 it requires 200w to turn it. That'll be 200w at 100 rpm or 60 rpm, so probably ideal for fixed or SS, and changing gears on a geared bike will make no difference; 200w (or whatever) is what you get. On the other hand, a fluid trainer will give an increasing resistance as the rear wheel speed increases, so much better for use with a geared bike.
No, not really. With the magnetic resistance units the power is still proportional to speed, it's just that it varies linearly with speed. On fixed, if you are doing 100RPM you are going faster than if you are doing 60RPM and so need more power.
Fluid units have some parabolic curve, so the faster you go the more speed you require proportionally, up to a very high value. That's why magnetic resistance units have different resistance levels, so that they can get the very high power to speed ratio and also the very low power to speed ratio that you get at the start and end of a fluid power curve.
The linear nature of a magnetic unit means that you can use the concept of functional threshold speed (FTS) to build work outs as the FTS is directly proportional to the function threshold power (FTP) and, as the power varies linearly with the speed, 80% of the FTS is equivalent to 80% of the FTP. To do this with a fluid trainer you need to know the curve and read off the values.
Of course, the trainer apps do all this in software and know the speed to power curve. You can use them with either a magnetic unit or a fluid unit, with gears or with fixed. They're not particularly accurate, though, as the system warms up during the workout and changes the relationship slightly.
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Ah, ok. I'm lucky in that I have an FE-C trainer, so I can let the computer sort out the resistances!
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This any use? https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=94101.0
Has cheapness and quality to commend it.
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If I understand it correctly, a magnetic resistance unit will give a fixed resistance (or power) per setting, so let's say at resistance setting 3 it requires 200w to turn it. That'll be 200w at 100 rpm or 60 rpm, so probably ideal for fixed or SS, and changing gears on a geared bike will make no difference; 200w (or whatever) is what you get. On the other hand, a fluid trainer will give an increasing resistance as the rear wheel speed increases, so much better for use with a geared bike.
No, not really. With the magnetic resistance units the power is still proportional to speed, it's just that it varies linearly with speed. On fixed, if you are doing 100RPM you are going faster than if you are doing 60RPM and so need more power.
Fluid units have some parabolic curve, so the faster you go the more speed you require proportionally, up to a very high value. That's why magnetic resistance units have different resistance levels, so that they can get the very high power to speed ratio and also the very low power to speed ratio that you get at the start and end of a fluid power curve.
The linear nature of a magnetic unit means that you can use the concept of functional threshold speed (FTS) to build work outs as the FTS is directly proportional to the function threshold power (FTP) and, as the power varies linearly with the speed, 80% of the FTS is equivalent to 80% of the FTP. To do this with a fluid trainer you need to know the curve and read off the values.
Of course, the trainer apps do all this in software and know the speed to power curve. You can use them with either a magnetic unit or a fluid unit, with gears or with fixed. They're not particularly accurate, though, as the system warms up during the workout and changes the relationship slightly.
Fluid trainers have an 'nth order polynomial' curve characteristic.
For electricaly simulated chassis dynamometers, experimental data is acquired by rolling a real vehicle down known gradients or coasting down a level road.
The numbers are crunched to get kW for kmh for 11 points.
Coeffs for a 4th order polynomial are calculated and the control software uses these in real-time through Visual-Basic, DtoA I/O cards and some heavy electrical gear to regulate the resistance on an electric motor.
OTOH, Kurt Kinetic 'Road Machine' is a good enough curve to do serious training on a bicycle.
IME, the 'speed to load curve' is different for every vehicle under the sun.
On a bicycle, a cyclist will increase and reduce the curve by sitting up or going on the drops.
My dyno is set-up to simulate full TT tuck on a Specialised Shiv. I did hill roll-downs to get repeatable kW figures for 32 and 40 kmh. The dyno is 0.75% different at 32 kmh and 1.10 % different at 40 kmh, which is good enough for me.