Paleo diet - fad or phenom?

[itsbruce]

Is the theory on which it is based sound - I suspect not. 

I also suspect not.  The thinking behind it does not stand up to scrutiny.  Evidence for precisely what our neolithic ancestors ate is incomplete; evidence that their diet had a significant and uniquely positive impact on human evolution is non-existent.  And then there's the detail that the average lifespan of our neolithic ancestors was twenty years.  If they had chosen to apply lead glaze to their pottery, it would have had bugger all impact on their lives; wouldn't make it a smart thing for us to do.

[Nick H.]

I did go on a particular doctor's interpretation of the paleo diet for a while, and it did make me feel a lot better. Her regime wasn't anti-cooking,  it was very tasty and it was about exercise as much as diet.

The first phase of the diet was an exclusion one, geared to finding out which, if any, modern foods make you feel unwell. After the first 6 weeks you bring back the modern foods if you want to and see what happens. It all seemed very sensible and pragmatic with none of the extreme positions that people like to take when they want to make a fuss about being cleverer than each other. I find health debates just as wearisome as religious ones. It's usually all about somebody'e ego.

I won't go on. The last time I brought it up people here started slating what they thought I was on about without troubling to read the aforementioned doctor's book. It's a fascinating book. You can read a few pages of it here Ten Years Thinner: Six Weeks to a ... - Google Books

Anyway, the diet works for me as a weight loss technique and as a means of treating CFS and depression. YMMV.

[Nick H.]

Is the theory on which it is based sound - I suspect not. 

I also suspect not.  The thinking behind it does not stand up to scrutiny.  Evidence for precisely what our neolithic ancestors ate is incomplete; evidence that their diet had a significant and uniquely positive impact on human evolution is non-existent.  And then there's the detail that the average lifespan of our neolithic ancestors was twenty years.  If they had chosen to apply lead glaze to their pottery, it would have had bugger all impact on their lives; wouldn't make it a smart thing for us to do.

  The thread is about paleolithics, who lived twice as long as neolithics.  And why try to reduce a longevity argument to diet, when our ancestors didn't have houses or sanitation or antibiotics and weren't at the top of the food chain? 

[itsbruce]

And why try to reduce a longevity argument to diet, when our ancestors didn't have houses or sanitation or antibiotics and weren't at the top of the food chain? 

Ah, no, you've taken that 180 degrees round from the way I meant it.  I'm not saying the diet caused the short lifespan, I'm saying that people with very short lifespans don't have to worry about the long term effects of their diet.  If, for example, something in their diet would cause osteoporosis in later years, it's not something that would have mattered to them.  Fatty build up in arteries also not an issue, so Big Mac Meals with McSlurries all round!

[Rich753]

I did go on a particular doctor's interpretation of the paleo diet for a while, and it did make me feel a lot better. Her regime wasn't anti-cooking,  it was very tasty and it was about exercise as much as diet.

The first phase of the diet was an exclusion one, geared to finding out which, if any, modern foods make you feel unwell. After the first 6 weeks you bring back the modern foods if you want to and see what happens. It all seemed very sensible and pragmatic with none of the extreme positions that people like to take when they want to make a fuss about being cleverer than each other. I find health debates just as wearisome as religious ones. It's usually all about somebody'e ego.

I won't go on. The last time I brought it up people here started slating what they thought I was on about without troubling to read the aforementioned doctor's book. It's a fascinating book. You can read a few pages of it here Ten Years Thinner: Six Weeks to a ... - Google Books

Anyway, the diet works for me as a weight loss technique and as a means of treating CFS and depression. YMMV.

If the descriptive phrase from a review "While advocating the nutritional importance of lean protein, judicious intake of good fats, and plenty of lower-glycemic carbohydrates like fruits and vegetables, she also strongly emphasizes the greater value of shorter, high-intensity weight-bearing exercise sessions over lengthy periods of aerobic exercise" is an accurate description then I suggest the book is a summary of current thinking, not innovative just leading practice.

As such, it's no surprise to me that it has had the positive effect on your life that you describe. 

And I would agree that this approach is likely to be more useful than speculative theorising on what our ancestors did or didn't consume.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The gotcha would be to find some subsistence tribe that lived only on spuds.

There was a Polish bio-chemist of the 1950s who "proved" that it was possible to live a perfectly healthy, normal life on a diet of only potatoes. I'll try to find a reference, but in the meantime, bear in mind that this was Poland, where many potatoes grow and form a large part of the average diet, and it was the era of Stalin. Political reasons for this "proof" may have existed.

OTOH Mrs Cudzo was at school with someone who "trained" himself to eat raw potatoes. He started off with small amounts, until he was able to consume a normal portion of potatoes, but completely uncooked. He did eat other things as well, though. He ate like this for about two years, but it lead to a reaction and he is now unable to digest potatoes in any form.

[mike]

<necromancy>

I've started following a plan very similar to the Paleo principles, as described in 'the primal blueprint' book and on the blog marksdailyapple because a friend has lost 4 stone doing it and looks fantastic.  The bastard.

summary - A week in, and I feel fantastic.
basic rules of it seem to be - avoid all processed and 'white' carbs like bread, pasta, rice, cake and as much sugar as poss.  This will reduce insulin spikes and encourage my body to burn it's plentiful supply of fat rather than laying down lard for hibernation.   I'm eating meat, veggies, salad, seeds and nuts and quite a lot of oil (butter & olive oil, mainly).

Exercise wise, it's brisk walks instead of runs and my long rides are slower so I stay below 75% of max HR and I'm doing some bodyweight circuits in the garage and some sprints on the bike and occasional running.   The weekends long rides were frustratingly slow, but because i'm not working so hard I didnt bonk or need to empty the fridge when I got home (did a couple of hours, both days).

I recommend reading the book, it's very interesting.  Ask me again in a month if it's still working! I do miss bread (and cake..) but it seems to be worthwhile.

 

[pumpkin]

So really it's about avoiding bread/cakes etc, all the modern foods that are loaded with wheat/sugar etc and eating more protein and natural foods incl.fruit. That sounds like a sensible diet anyway. Bagels aren't that bad because they are steamed but it's how many you eat. Modern diets are controlled by the Food Industry and you have to remember that the bottom line for them is profit not nutrition

[mike]

according to the book all grains are bad because they trigger the insulin spike.   It makes no difference if it's wholemeal, steamed, brown rice, whatever.  Just say no.. [/zammo]

[Chris S]

Is dairy allowed? Eggs? Oats?

[mike]

yes, yes (and encouraged), no

[Chris S]

yes, yes (and encouraged), no

Hmm... being allergic to egg might make it a problem if I can't eat them bound to some kind of substrate. What about legumes or pulses? Perhaps I could contrive some eggy couscous that would fool my insides enough to tolerate it.

[dasmoth]

I'd always assumed that this kind of diet counted couscous as pretty-much the same as pasta.  If that's not true, then maybe I stand a chance after all.

   -- Starchaholic of Hertfordshire.

[mike]

sorry, legumes, pulses and couscous are all out...   You're not a veggie though, are you Chris?  You can just eat the chicken instead of the egg

I'm there with you, dasmoth.  Really missing bread and lentils.

[Kathy]

Isn't this just The Atkins Diet by a different name?

[mike]

I've been thinking about why I'm going through this bread-deprivation...

I've spent the last 3 years trying to get thin and fit.  I've gone through periods of training my nuts off for time trialling and triathlon, and mirrored the effort with carb-heavy diet (bread, pasta, spuds etc).  I've been using energy drinks and energy bars and gels during and after sessions and spent a shedload of cash on gadgets to tell me how hard I'm trying.

It's worked, to a point... My power output is fantastic and I can sustain a nice high heartrate for hours.  But I'm **heavier** now than I was 3 years ago and the more I trained, the more 'products' i ate, the more I weighed.  It's not helped by my almost complete lack of willpower when I look at the fridge.

I expect a dedicated training program would make me faster over a triathlon, but I'm nearly 40 and have woken up to the fact that I'm not going to win anything the way I'm going, so I'd rather try and be lighter, healthier, happier and enjoy a varied training program than follow the kind of regimented triathlon program that the books recommend.   The free ebook on the dailyapple blog site is quite good at describing how exercise should be fun not a chore, and I was too far the other way.  If, when I've lost the lard I'm quicker too, that'll be lovely but it's not why I'm doing it.

just my 2 cents..

Kathy - no, because Atkins cuts out **all** carbs, incl. fruit & veggies.

[Chris S]

sorry, legumes, pulses and couscous are all out...   You're not a veggie though, are you Chris?  You can just eat the chicken instead of the egg

No - but egg would make a handy change to meat; esp as a convenient breakfast option. Egg is OK if bound to a high surface area substrate - like flour. So cake is OK   (phew).

Good luck with the change in diet. What's currently working for me is ridiculous mileage on the bike and a small daily calorie deficit. The knack as I understand it is to get your metabolism revving nice and high whilst still maintaining a little bit of deficit. The problem with all this is - what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for someone else  .

I think it could be quite hard to get your metabolism revving high on such an energy thin diet - but having said that, I can pretty much ride 200km now without food, provided I keep in Zone 2, so one's bod does learn efficiency.

[Alouicious]

The 'Paleo' is a diet that consists of what was eaten my Cro Magnon BEFORE the agricultural revolution.

Anything that is a domesticated / cultivated grass is OUT. Except for oats, which can be gathered, boiled and made into a delicious stodgey pulp.

Fruit 'in season' is IN, but bananas from central America flown into UK in February are OUT.

Honey is IN. Sugar is OUT ( sugar cane is grass ).

[andygates]

It's not Atkins, because it gets carbs from plenty of veg, and it doesn't try to be ketogenic.  It's low slow carb.

Mind you, cavemen had knock knees and went ug, so you can't just say "old is good" or we'd all be returning to the seas...

[Alouicious]

sorry, legumes, pulses and couscous are all out...   You're not a veggie though, are you Chris?  You can just eat the chicken instead of the egg

No - but egg would make a handy change to meat; esp as a convenient breakfast option. Egg is OK if bound to a high surface area substrate - like flour. So cake is OK   (phew).

Good luck with the change in diet. What's currently working for me is ridiculous mileage on the bike and a small daily calorie deficit. The knack as I understand it is to get your metabolism revving nice and high whilst still maintaining a little bit of deficit. The problem with all this is - what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for someone else  .

I think it could be quite hard to get your metabolism revving high on such an energy thin diet - but having said that, I can pretty much ride 200km now without food, provided I keep in Zone 2, so one's bod does learn efficiency.

Flour is from a cultivated grass seed ( domesticated wheat ) that didn't occur until the agricultural revolution approx 12,500 years ago. Its OUT......

Firk knows who told them they could cross fertilise grasses to make something that was edible???

[andygates]

Toasted grass seed is nibbly kibbly boyscout fun.  As found in areas with wild (or managed) fire...

[Rich753]

Mike's new diet sounds similar to the Barry Sears Zone diet, with it's focus on the hormonal reaction to food consumed.

This feels to me like an advance on the crude (and dumb, imho) assertion that "calories in - calories burned" is the measure of a successful dietary regime!

[Nick H.]

If anyone wants a modern, sensible, doable reinterpretation of the paleo diet it's in this book. The author is a doctor  Ten Years Thinner: Amazon.co.uk: Christine Lydon: Books Very readable, very interesting

[Jakob]

Mike's new diet sounds similar to the Barry Sears Zone diet, with it's focus on the hormonal reaction to food consumed.

This feels to me like an advance on the crude (and dumb, imho) assertion that "calories in - calories burned" is the measure of a successful dietary regime!

Except the Zone diet allows grain, etc, although it recommends avoiding them. I've had a couple of attempts at the zone diet, but it's still quite restrictive on the carbs and I've been struggling to adapt to a sensible menu.

[Rich753]

Mike's new diet sounds similar to the Barry Sears Zone diet, with it's focus on the hormonal reaction to food consumed.

This feels to me like an advance on the crude (and dumb, imho) assertion that "calories in - calories burned" is the measure of a successful dietary regime!

Except the Zone diet allows grain, etc, although it recommends avoiding them. I've had a couple of attempts at the zone diet, but it's still quite restrictive on the carbs and I've been struggling to adapt to a sensible menu.

Similar in the focus on the hormonal reaction to food, not on the list fo foods "allowed" or proscribed".