Help with frame related questions

[Domestique]

Hi Dave
Thanks for the info. I have uploaded some pictures, to try to clarify. Imo its not a big dent.
Its badged as a Holdsworth, but frame number is LE3619
Many thanks for help
Pen


DSCF2676 by Domestique2007, on Flickr


DSCF2683 by Domestique2007, on Flickr


DSCF2680 by Domestique2007, on Flickr


DSCF2685 by Domestique2007, on Flickr

[dippy2]

Hi Dave

When installing a Phil Wood stainless steel Bottom Bracket with Alloy BB shells in Van Nicholas Amazon Titanium frame, should I use the Phil Wood supplied threadlock or as normal practice dictates just use grease for ease of future disassembly.

Many thanks.

[Efrogwr]

so, it has Holdsworth on the frame. However it looks like an Ephgrave to me. Frame number, lugs and the funny extra bits on the seat stay top eyes all say Ephgrave. It's worth restoring; some reckon that Les Ephgrave was the only real competitor to Hetchins.

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Hi Dave
Thanks for the info. I have uploaded some pictures, to try to clarify. Imo its not a big dent.
Its badged as a Holdsworth, but frame number is LE3619
Many thanks for help
Pen

Definately an Ephgrave and fixable by the method I mentioned  Probably can be done without much paint damage as well.

Dave Yates

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Hi Dave

When installing a Phil Wood stainless steel Bottom Bracket with Alloy BB shells in Van Nicholas Amazon Titanium frame, should I use the Phil Wood supplied threadlock or as normal practice dictates just use grease for ease of future disassembly.

Many thanks.

Hi Dippy

I have not had a whole lot of experience with ti stuff but I do know it takes very little to make it gall and pick up on a mating surface. I would favour a decent synthetic grease. Threadlock tends to go hard and it would only take a bit in the wrong place to cause disaster on disassembly. As long as you tighten to the recomended torque it should be fine.

Dave Yates

[Domestique]

Dave
Many thanks for the reply. We should be contacting you via the workshop at sometime when funds permit.
All the best

[dippy2]

Hi Dippy

I have not had a whole lot of experience with ti stuff but I do know it takes very little to make it gall and pick up on a mating surface. I would favour a decent synthetic grease. Threadlock tends to go hard and it would only take a bit in the wrong place to cause disaster on disassembly. As long as you tighten to the recomended torque it should be fine.

Dave Yates

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, much appreciated

[clarion]

so, it has Holdsworth on the frame. However it looks like an Ephgrave to me. Frame number, lugs and the funny extra bits on the seat stay top eyes all say Ephgrave. It's worth restoring; some reckon that Les Ephgrave was the only real competitor to Hetchins.

If DY says it's an Ephgrave, that's good enough for me!

Beautiful framebuilding.  For me, and apologies to those present, Ephgrave was the best ever builder.  Every frame is a work of art.  It's great news that Dave is confident he can repair this one and get it back to it's true glory.

[Tewdric]

Hi Dave
Thanks for the info. I have uploaded some pictures, to try to clarify. Imo its not a big dent.
Its badged as a Holdsworth, but frame number is LE3619
Many thanks for help
Pen


DSCF2676 by Domestique2007, on Flickr


DSCF2683 by Domestique2007, on Flickr


DSCF2680 by Domestique2007, on Flickr


DSCF2685 by Domestique2007, on Flickr

What an absolutely gorgeous frame.  It looks like it might be a Les Ephgrave No. 1 Super, the pinnacle of Ephgraves and very highly sought after.  Well worth restoring and doing some serious research on. 

[nuovo_record]

heres a bit of info - sorry to drag the threasd a bit further away from the main question
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/ephgrave-builders.html

[matthew]

Dave,

So I dropped the chain on my fixed on Wednesday at about 24mph. Once freed and reset I got on to ride home and noticed an unusual amount of flex at the bottom bracket.

The frame is an circa 1990 British Eagle Touristique and 531ST throughout.

Closer inspection in a work stand today has revealed that there are tension cracks in the paint on inside of the right chain stay and that the outside has rippled, vernier calipers also suggest that the tube is misshapen. Added to this an inspection with a straight edge indicates that the right hand seat stay is bowed from the bridge to the dropout (worst at the canti boss) and the left hand seat stay is bent at the brake bridge.

what is the prognosis?

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Dave,

So I dropped the chain on my fixed on Wednesday at about 24mph. Once freed and reset I got on to ride home and noticed an unusual amount of flex at the bottom bracket.

The frame is an circa 1990 British Eagle Touristique and 531ST throughout.

Closer inspection in a work stand today has revealed that there are tension cracks in the paint on inside of the right chain stay and that the outside has rippled, vernier calipers also suggest that the tube is misshapen. Added to this an inspection with a straight edge indicates that the right hand seat stay is bowed from the bridge to the dropout (worst at the canti boss) and the left hand seat stay is bent at the brake bridge.

what is the prognosis?

Sounds like the back end has been pulled across to the right.  Quick check is to tie a piece of string to  one rear dropout, take it around the head tube and back to the other dropout making sure that it passes on the outside of the dropout on each side and is tight. Measure from the string to the seat tube on both sides. If the dropouts are equally disposed about the centre line of the frame then the measurements will be equal. If they are not then something is bent !!! Depending on the severity of the bend it is probably straightenable, however without seeing at least some pics I cant give you a definitive answer. 531 is remarkably forgiving and I have done dreadful things to customers frames to straighten them after similar mishaps and they have given years more service.
If you can post some pics I will be able to give you a more accurate answer.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[matthew]

Dave

Thanks for a quick answer, here are two photos of the right chain stay,

Inside, stress cracks in paint:



Outside ripples:



Thank you for the tip about the string measurement I will check that in the morning..

Edit to Add:

Measured the tracking with the string technique. Left hand side 28.5mm Right hand side 35mm.

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Dave

Thanks for a quick answer, here are two photos of the right chain stay,

Inside, stress cracks in paint:

Outside ripples:

Thank you for the tip about the string measurement I will check that in the morning..

Edit to Add:

Measured the tracking with the string technique. Left hand side 28.5mm Right hand side 35mm.

Yep, you have zapped that good and proper
However,----------------
I have straightened worse than that in the past 
Strictly speaking it needs a new chainstay and paint, the cost of which is probably more than the frame is worth. If you can live with a slightly distorted chainstay it should be possible to get the frame back in track and as long as there are no creases in the metal it will be perfectly serviceable. As mentioned previously I have done several jobs of the same type which were successful.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[matthew]

Dave

thank you for your advice, I had reached the same conclusion about needing a new chainstay and paint. 
As you say I could probably replace the frame for less but I know and really like the ride of this frame geometry and doubt I could get a new frame to match easily. It is therefore probably heading back to mercian who repaired the seat stay seat tube brazes that failed 10 years ago. Though I need to look up your website for comparison.

Though as I am not taking it onto a University campus each day the new paint job doesn't have to be as understated. 

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Matthew

If you really like the frame then that is a perfectly good reason to get it fixed. This is the beauty of steel frames, no matter what happens to them they are fixable. Mercian will do a very good job, they have had more practice than me 

Cheers

Dave Yates

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Dave

thank you for your advice, I had reached the same conclusion about needing a new chainstay and paint. 
As you say I could probably replace the frame for less but I know and really like the ride of this frame geometry and doubt I could get a new frame to match easily. It is therefore probably heading back to mercian who repaired the seat stay seat tube brazes that failed 10 years ago. Though I need to look up your website for comparison.

Though as I am not taking it onto a University campus each day the new paint job doesn't have to be as understated. 

I've a BE Touristique (1987).  A much better ride than I expected when I bought it off ebay for 50 squid and I have spent quite a bit on it since. 

[sletti]

I have a lug question for the Mater Jedi, Dave Yates.

I am thinking of a frame for building next year and I am very much a lover of steel. I love the look of chrome lugs, bit as I read around I see you can get much the same effect from polished stainless steel.

What would be the material pros/cons for choosing stainless lugs, over non-stainless lugs and having them chromed?

Thanks

Stig

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Hi Stig

How did you know I am a Jedi Master 

Chrome is horrible stuff  . I say that from the point of view of a builder not in the aesthetic sense. The processes involved in chroming are not kind to a frame, abrasive and corrosive and having to trust the frame to a third party to have the process carried out. Having said that it looks fantastic on a classic frame and assuming the frame is made from reasonably robust tube and the chroming is done by someone who knows what they are doing it will probably be OK. We have a large disclaimer on our price list regarding chrome which basically says "We will chrome plate it if you want but if it breaks dont bring it back we dont want to know !!!"
Stainless components, if polished well look just as good as chrome and this has the advantage of no nasty chemicals coming in contact with the frame tubes and no chance of any rusting. However, to polish a stainless component takes a long time hence more money and from a builders point of view is a bit of a pig to work with. Silver solder is the best way to join stainless so with the current price of silver this is going to add anything from £60 to £100 to the frame  so it is going to cost lots more if you want a decent job done.
Essentially you pays yer money etc.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Do or not do, there is no "try"

[sletti]

Do or not do, there is no "try"

Only a true Jedi Master could sum life up so well. I have seen pictues of you and you hide you green skin and diminutive stature well.

Thanks for heads up on shiny stuff. I appreciate the corrosive chemicals involved in Chrome plating, but I had not considered that it may limit the thickness of the tube walls you could safely apply it to. As I have no desire for a frame made out of recycled scaffold poles, so I think you may have helped me rule chroming out. Mind you, looking at the Mercian cyles prices, chroming lugs, crown and dropouts is gonna cost well north of £200.

I assume if the stainless lugs are sourced (I have my eyes on a snappy set of Fleur de Lys lugs at Ceeway) then could their polishing be farmed out prior to the commencement of the build?

My other question concerns tubing diameters. I have a 531c Allin frame built for me umpteen years ago by Cliff Shrubb. It is a lovely thing with a joyous ride, but at 24" Seat tube length it has always been a little whippy. When time trialling in the 80s this was not that big an issue because my 6'3"only weighed a paltry 9st 6lbs. 20 years of sex drugs and rock and roll (well, pasties and kebabs and rock and roll in reality) see me carrying a good 15st and I think this may be making my bike feel even more whippy. I could well be imagining it, but I got to thinking about oversize tubing (still retained within and oversize set of Fley Di Lys lugs). How much of a difference to the ride would oversize tubing make?

And one more question; do your Jedi powers stretch to the manipulation of time as I would love to attend your framebulding course, and you are booked up until the next glacial epoch?

And many thanks for making yourself available to answer questions on a forum.

Stig

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Do or not do, there is no "try"

Only a true Jedi Master could sum life up so well. I have seen pictues of you and you hide you green skin and diminutive stature well.

Green skin and pointy ears are so last year 

Thanks for heads up on shiny stuff. I appreciate the corrosive chemicals involved in Chrome plating, but I had not considered that it may limit the thickness of the tube walls you could safely apply it to. As I have no desire for a frame made out of recycled scaffold poles, so I think you may have helped me rule chroming out. Mind you, looking at the Mercian cyles prices, chroming lugs, crown and dropouts is gonna cost well north of £200.

The wall thickness aspect is really about the polishing prior to the plating process. If you consider that a 725 double taper seat stay is only .6mm wall thickness on a good day and that a cack handed polisher can take .2mm off in some areas you will see the problem, not enough metal left

I assume if the stainless lugs are sourced (I have my eyes on a snappy set of Fleur de Lys lugs at Ceeway) then could their polishing be farmed out prior to the commencement of the build?

That can be done, actually it is best to do it that way.

My other question concerns tubing diameters. I have a 531c Allin frame built for me umpteen years ago by Cliff Shrubb. It is a lovely thing with a joyous ride, but at 24" Seat tube length it has always been a little whippy. When time trialling in the 80s this was not that big an issue because my 6'3"only weighed a paltry 9st 6lbs. 20 years of sex drugs and rock and roll (well, pasties and kebabs and rock and roll in reality) see me carrying a good 15st and I think this may be making my bike feel even more whippy. I could well be imagining it, but I got to thinking about oversize tubing (still retained within and oversize set of Fley Di Lys lugs). How much of a difference to the ride would oversize tubing make?

A significant difference, also modern tube is better than 531 so  "oversize" (1 1/4" dt, 1 1/8" tt) in 631 will be significantly better, an 853 DT on a frame that size would be better still.

And one more question; do your Jedi powers stretch to the manipulation of time as I would love to attend your framebulding course, and you are booked up until the next glacial epoch?

Alas such matters are out of my control as SWMBO has the executive power over the diary. If I attempted to meddle retribution would be swift and terrible, well, at least no biscuits for the workshop for a week. Also any attempt at manipulating time will invoke the Arcturian paradox which states that no Jedi framebuilder can be in two places at once (I have tried and ended up back where I started from with an upside down frame)

And many thanks for making yourself available to answer questions on a forum.

You are very welcome

Stig

Dave Yates

[sletti]

Thanks Dave.

Alas such matters are out of my control as SWMBO has the executive power over the diary. If I attempted to meddle retribution would be swift and terrible, well, at least no biscuits for the workshop for a week. Also any attempt at manipulating time will invoke the Arcturian paradox which states that no Jedi framebuilder can be in two places at once (I have tried and ended up back where I started from with an upside down frame)[/color]

When a man, Jedi or otherwise, had a deep and lasting love of his art, it is important that the Memsaab forces him to not let his heart rule his head, and get talked into offering that which is either impractical or impossible, so I utterly understand your position. I shall hope that you have a cancellation before your calendar is re-opened for bookings. And woe betide those who attempt to invoke a paradox of Arcturian proportions, but I hadn't considered the possibilities of quantum entanglement and supersymetry, and that perhaps in a parallel universe there is another Dave Yates who assembles frames from thin walled granite which are joined with a mixture of Pangolin bile and sarcasm. Either way I'll bet it would be a pig to chrome.

But if I could ask a few more question. If you pre-polish the seat lug, how would you recommend attaching the seat stays. I rather like the look of a stay top that is shot into the seat bolt but I guess you would have problems concerning where the polished finish would stop and the painted finish would start. Would it be best to use a traditional top eye type fastening for this, or could you join the stays to the seat  tube below the polished seat lug itself?

Now for a more hypothetical question. I like the look of a classic frame, in particularly those old frames where the chain stays, seatstays and fork blades are half chromed. Is it possible to achieve this effect with stainless tubing, or is, as in your 725 chroming example, the polishing process too likely to compromise the mechanical properties/integrity of the tubing?

[mrcharly-YHT]

Wouldn't it be possible for the bike owner to polish dropouts and lugs post-build?  I use aluminum oxide powder on a leather strop for sharpening woodcarving knives, and it brings them up to a mirror polish.

[Bicycle Repair Man]

perhaps in a parallel universe there is another Dave Yates who assembles frames from thin walled granite which are joined with a mixture of Pangolin bile and sarcasm. Either way I'll bet it would be a pig to chrome.

I have glimpsed this parallel universe through a crack in the blaster cabinet. The material is indeed granite but my alter ego joins it with a mixture of Ardvark saliva and irony (its much stronger that aluminiumy) and it is in fact a pig that does the chroming 

But if I could ask a few more question. If you pre-polish the seat lug, how would you recommend attaching the seat stays. I rather like the look of a stay top that is shot into the seat bolt but I guess you would have problems concerning where the polished finish would stop and the painted finish would start. Would it be best to use a traditional top eye type fastening for this, or could you join the stays to the seat  tube below the polished seat lug itself?

IMHO best way would be to part polish the lug, build frame, stick the seat stays onto the bolt then finish the polishing after the flux is washed off

Now for a more hypothetical question. I like the look of a classic frame, in particularly those old frames where the chain stays, seatstays and fork blades are half chromed. Is it possible to achieve this effect with stainless tubing, or is, as in your 725 chroming example, the polishing process too likely to compromise the mechanical properties/integrity of the tubing?

This really depends on the person doing the polishing. Possible but expensive as the Reynolds 953 stainless is horrendously expensive plus the polishing time.

Live long and prosper

Dave Yates

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Wouldn't it be possible for the bike owner to polish dropouts and lugs post-build?  I use aluminum oxide powder on a leather strop for sharpening woodcarving knives, and it brings them up to a mirror polish.

It would indeed be possible for the frame owner to do this. It would take some time but if you are not working under commercial pressure then you can take as long as you like. The surface on cast lugs is usually pretty good but you would still need to go down through the grades of abrasive to get a good polish. BUT DO NOT TOUCH THE TUBES 
 I too use the leather strop technique but I use a mixture of jewellers rouge and Solvol Autosol. As well as making frames I also make custom knives, to polish the blades I start with 240 grit wet and dry wrapped around various wooden sticks then work down through the grades ie 320, 400, 600, 1000, 1200. I put the edge on with either a fine diamond stone or a Japanese water stone then an Arkasas stone with oil then the leather strop which as you know puts a fine polish on the edge. When it shaves the hairs off my arm I am happy

Cheers

Dave Yates