Author Topic: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?  (Read 2652 times)

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« on: 30 May, 2019, 08:58:44 am »
I'm hoping to shoehorn my first Super Randonnée into my schedule this year and wondering if/how a SR can be registered with AUK? As a regular 600km DIY comes to mind, but a SR allows you 60 hours instead of 40 (and I'm going to need those extra hours...)

S2L

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #1 on: 30 May, 2019, 09:17:42 am »
There is only one way to validate a SR and the event needs to have SR status. For instance, you cannot ride the Pendle 600 as a Super Randonnee even if the amount of climbing might qualify for SR status.
There is only one in the UK, the Cambrian 6C

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #2 on: 30 May, 2019, 09:29:29 am »
I'm doing a Super Randonnee this year also to get the ACP Randonneur 10,000 award. My understanding is that a Super Randonnee cannot be ridden in parallel with any other award, so it cannot be registered as a DIY to gain Audax points or AAA points.

So if you are riding it outside the UK, then it'll be validated by the local governing body. In that case, I don't see any benefit in somehow registering it with AUK. Or perhaps I'm missing something?

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #3 on: 30 May, 2019, 11:03:28 am »
There is only one way to validate a SR and the event needs to have SR status. For instance, you cannot ride the Pendle 600 as a Super Randonnee even if the amount of climbing might qualify for SR status.
There is only one in the UK, the Cambrian 6C
OT - links for UK SR. Plan to ride this next month.
http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/SR01R/
https://www.openrunner.com/ (and search for Cambrian 6C)
Knighton - Brecon - Llanwrtyd Wells - Tregaron - Aberystwyth - Llanidloes – Bala – Abergele – (Llyn Sarnau (west of Llanwrst)) - Llanberis – Denbigh – Mold - Llangollen – Llanfyllin - (Caersws) - Llanidloes – Knighton
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29823510 (my rescore of the authoritative Openrunner route, visiting the 'actual' SR controls)
See also the Cambrian Permanents thread: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=79290.msg2272286;topicseen#msg2272286

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #4 on: 30 May, 2019, 12:58:16 pm »
I'm hoping to shoehorn my first Super Randonnée into my schedule this year and wondering if/how a SR can be registered with AUK? As a regular 600km DIY comes to mind, but a SR allows you 60 hours instead of 40 (and I'm going to need those extra hours...)

My understanding is that there is no mechanism within the AUK structure for recognising a Super Randonneé. Even tho there is one available within the UK (the Cambian 6C as mentioned elsewhere). It doesn't fit in with the current points structure, or the AAA structure, or count to any AUK awards.

Given that there are an increasing number of people doing these rides, and given that there is now a UK based SR ride available, it's perhaps time AUK did recognise them. But I'm not sure how one would go about making such a proposal.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #5 on: 30 May, 2019, 01:38:49 pm »
I'm hoping to shoehorn my first Super Randonnée into my schedule this year and wondering if/how a SR can be registered with AUK? As a regular 600km DIY comes to mind, but a SR allows you 60 hours instead of 40 (and I'm going to need those extra hours...)

My understanding is that there is no mechanism within the AUK structure for recognising a Super Randonneé. Even tho there is one available within the UK (the Cambian 6C as mentioned elsewhere). It doesn't fit in with the current points structure, or the AAA structure, or count to any AUK awards.

Given that there are an increasing number of people doing these rides, and given that there is now a UK based SR ride available, it's perhaps time AUK did recognise them. But I'm not sure how one would go about making such a proposal.

J

The Cambrian 6C as a Super Randonnee is an AUK event, which can be entered via the AUK website, and was set up after correspondence with, and support from, the Permanents Secretary and the Chairman.

Where confusion may arise, is that it doesn't count for points, AAA, etc, for the simple reason that it doesn't comply with the rules of a BR, as there is a time limit of 60 hours to complete the ride.  IMHO people should accept that this is a way of taking on a demanding ride in exceptionally hilly terrain in a time limit that makes this practical for a broader range of riders.   Enjoy the Super Randonnee for what it is and don't try to make it into something else. 

The 6C can be entered as a BR (there is a separate line on the website to do this), with the normal 42 hour time limit, for which riders would then be able to claim the 6 points for distance and 11.75AAA points.  Good luck!

Setting up a new Super Randonnee requires correspondence with Sophie Matter, who was very helpful in providing guidance on the rules and with the AUK Permanents Secretary, as with any new permanent event.  The advice was that it should be a continuous route rather than a series of loops, and OpenRunner was used to validate the minimum of 10000m ascent.  A word of warning - based on actual rider data and the various tools the AAA man used, 11750 is the average figure.  Openrunner calculated the ascent at 10300m.  It took a lot of effort to get the route right, even when 400km of it had already been set up by Peter Coulson, the originator of the Cambrian Permanents.  Finding photo proofs of passage that are obvious/easy to find for tired riders also took some work.  So it's not an overnight task to set up a new ride.  (Although photographic proof of passage does provide options for controls at the top of hills that would not be practical for conventional controls).

Having been through the process, happy to help anyone else who has an idea for a Super Randonee in the UK.

Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 574 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #6 on: 30 May, 2019, 02:21:45 pm »
Thanks all, makes sense.

FWIW I'm considering the Ötztaler Super Randonnée (starting in Munich, Germany) as this is logistically easier for me and when it comes to climbing I prefer the long steady ones in the Alps over the (very) steep ones the UK is rife with  :)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #7 on: 30 May, 2019, 02:47:58 pm »
Thanks all, makes sense.

FWIW I'm considering the Ötztaler Super Randonnée (starting in Munich, Germany) as this is logistically easier for me and when it comes to climbing I prefer the long steady ones in the Alps over the (very) steep ones the UK is rife with  :)

That's on my bucket list. But I think I need to lose 25kg first. Tho I'm getting to do some of it in reverse on this years TCR, if I can make it as far as the CP3 parcours.

The Cambrian 6C as a Super Randonnee is an AUK event, which can be entered via the AUK website, and was set up after correspondence with, and support from, the Permanents Secretary and the Chairman.

Where confusion may arise, is that it doesn't count for points, AAA, etc, for the simple reason that it doesn't comply with the rules of a BR, as there is a time limit of 60 hours to complete the ride.  IMHO people should accept that this is a way of taking on a demanding ride in exceptionally hilly terrain in a time limit that makes this practical for a broader range of riders.   Enjoy the Super Randonnee for what it is and don't try to make it into something else. 

That clarifies things. Am I correct tho that AUK is unable to recognise Super Randonnee events that are not run through AUK in the first place?

Quote
The 6C can be entered as a BR (there is a separate line on the website to do this), with the normal 42 hour time limit, for which riders would then be able to claim the 6 points for distance and 11.75AAA points.  Good luck!

Has anyone done so yet?

If entered as a BR, can it also count as a SR for the ACP10000 award?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #8 on: 30 May, 2019, 02:53:14 pm »
If entered as a BR, can it also count as a SR for the ACP10000 award?

The answer to that one is no. The SR must be ridden as an independent ride and not count towards any other award. You either enter it as an SR, or as a BR.

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #9 on: 30 May, 2019, 02:54:48 pm »
If entered as a BR, can it also count as a SR for the ACP10000 award?

The answer to that one is no. The SR must be ridden as an independent ride and not count towards any other award. You either enter it as an SR, or as a BR.

Makes sense. I guess that also rules out ECE, for anyone feeling *REALLY* masochistic...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #10 on: 30 May, 2019, 03:14:17 pm »
It is perhaps worth noting that Sophie Matter, the originator of the Super Randonnée, also runs the 1000 du Sud. Sophie has very strong views on the non-competitive nature of Audax.

Quote
All participants are equal

Le Mille du Sud is not a competitive event.
There is no prize to win. No rider classifications will be made. Individual time results will not be published.
No special reward will be granted to individual performance.

Riders come to tackle a challenging route and to strive for a personal best.
It’s a social ride. Friendship is the hallmark of randonneuring.

Randonneuring is non-competitive in nature.
Anyone registering to Le 1000 du Sud should be clearly aware of this.

She has detached the 1000 du Sud from the ACP structure, with a 100 hour limit.

Quote
1000 du Sud Finisher

Randonneur : 100 hours
Tourist : no limit

Any participant who takes the official start, rides the entire route, validates his/her card at all controls and respects the rule of self-sufficiency, will be considered official Finisher of Le 1000 du Sud. He/She will receive a diploma
.

I wonder if Sophie's motivation is to avoid the posturing that results from completing difficult events, by extending the time allowance. Otherwise a form of quasi competition comes into play.

https://sites.google.com/site/le1000dusud/presentation/introduction---english

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #11 on: 30 May, 2019, 03:20:52 pm »
There have been one or two entries for the 6C as a BR.  No attempts as yet. 

To give an idea of the challenge, I always provide this advice.  The 6C is based on the Cambrian 4C (by far the hardest of the Cambrian 400s), with 30km of relatively flat terrain between Bala and Llangollen taken out and 200km of gratuitously hilly terrain in North Wales and Snowdonia added in.  I rode the 4C when I was in good nick, I'd recently towed a group around the Rough Diamond 300 (rolling hills, good roads) in 12 hours.  I had pretty much perfect weather (warm, dry, no wind) for the 4C.  I took 3 short cat naps, total about 30 minutes.  And I finished in 25 hours.  If I'd added on the extra 200km I would have been struggling to finish in under 40 hours.  So, if you can do a 30-hour Bryan Chapman, you should be alright to get round the 6C as a BR.
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 574 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #12 on: 30 May, 2019, 04:19:44 pm »
Having been through the process, happy to help anyone else who has an idea for a Super Randonee in the UK.
That bloke with an obsession for connecting railways with his rides is trying to set one up. He'll need to cross the border from Bristol to get the necessary climb, though.

S2L

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #13 on: 30 May, 2019, 04:31:15 pm »
  So, if you can do a 30-hour Bryan Chapman, you should be alright to get round the 6C as a BR.

That's not particularly hard... I did it in 33, but that's because I spent 7 hours at Kings, to avoid riding in the dark. Doing the 6C in 40 hours however, on paper seems something beyond me.

Bernster

  • ACME (Herts Branch)
Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #14 on: 31 May, 2019, 10:59:51 am »
I looked at the 6C as a BR briefly, but definitely wouldn't want to be the first person to try it! I'd expect to do the whole ride on little more than a few catnaps. I'm waiting on feedback from Psyclist on his SR attempt, and watching this thread to see if any others are mad enough to give it a go.

As a side point, wouldn't it be 42 hours (14.3kph), rather than 40 as it's a perm? Those two hours could make a big difference.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #15 on: 31 May, 2019, 12:09:05 pm »
My understanding is that there is no mechanism within the AUK structure for recognising a Super Randonneé. Even tho there is one available within the UK (the Cambian 6C as mentioned elsewhere). It doesn't fit in with the current points structure, or the AAA structure, or count to any AUK awards.

Super Randonnees are recognised by AUK and are accorded their own paragraph in the AUK Regulations that detail the various event variants, and according to that AUK "is responsible for submitting validations to ACP for approval".  It's true they don't fit anywhere in the existing AUK structure, but they are administered elsewhere so that's not really surprising.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #16 on: 31 May, 2019, 12:11:27 pm »
It is perhaps worth noting that Sophie Matter, the originator of the Super Randonnée, also runs the 1000 du Sud. Sophie has very strong views on the non-competitive nature of Audax.



Sophie Matter & Drew Buck at the 2011 Paris-Brest

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #17 on: 31 May, 2019, 12:49:16 pm »
All being good I'll be off to take the photos of controls for my ACP SR 600 next weekend. There will be an option of a gravel section section which I did with my son earlier in the year. Spectacular views!



Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #18 on: 31 May, 2019, 01:42:39 pm »
There will be an option of a gravel section section which I did with my son earlier in the year. Spectacular views!

Looks really good. Assuming this is on the Cambrian 6C, it is a mandatory route so you’d need to return to the official route where you left it ... for the benefit of the purists.

I’ve planned to head down to Betwys-y-Coed for the last night, but will retrace back to the route where I left it rather than head straight up to the next control.

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #19 on: 31 May, 2019, 03:04:38 pm »
There will be an option of a gravel section section which I did with my son earlier in the year. Spectacular views!
Looks really good. Assuming this is on the Cambrian 6C, it is a mandatory route so you’d need to return to the official route where you left it ... for the benefit of the purists.
No (not 6C) - Will is planning (as in: to offer) another SR which also traverses Wales. But I don't think the 'system' will allow 'optional' routing on a mandatory mandatory route SR. B road option (as opposed to the A470 trunk road) from Caersws to Llanidloes anyone?

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #20 on: 31 May, 2019, 03:21:26 pm »
There will be an option of a gravel section section which I did with my son earlier in the year. Spectacular views!
Looks really good. Assuming this is on the Cambrian 6C, it is a mandatory route so you’d need to return to the official route where you left it ... for the benefit of the purists.
No (not 6C) - Will is planning (as in: to offer) another SR which also traverses Wales. But I don't think the 'system' will allow 'optional' routing on a mandatory mandatory route SR. B road option (as opposed to the A470 trunk road) from Caersws to Llanidloes anyone?

Ah-ha - I see the connection now from prior posts. In which case, my view is that I think that looks really interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing the route.

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #21 on: 31 May, 2019, 04:01:21 pm »
There will be an option of a gravel section section which I did with my son earlier in the year. Spectacular views!
Looks really good. Assuming this is on the Cambrian 6C, it is a mandatory route so you’d need to return to the official route where you left it ... for the benefit of the purists.
No (not 6C) - Will is planning (as in: to offer) another SR which also traverses Wales. But I don't think the 'system' will allow 'optional' routing on a mandatory mandatory route SR. B road option (as opposed to the A470 trunk road) from Caersws to Llanidloes anyone?

I'll put the option to John (and Sophie). Same controls, same climb, slightly shorter (still over 600) but with its draw backs - gravel, gates, grazers...

Otherwise it'll be a BR or BP option.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: registering a Super Randonnée with AUK?
« Reply #22 on: 31 May, 2019, 09:30:37 pm »
There will be an option of a gravel section section which I did with my son earlier in the year. Spectacular views!
Looks really good. Assuming this is on the Cambrian 6C, it is a mandatory route so you’d need to return to the official route where you left it ... for the benefit of the purists.
No (not 6C) - Will is planning (as in: to offer) another SR which also traverses Wales. But I don't think the 'system' will allow 'optional' routing on a mandatory mandatory route SR. B road option (as opposed to the A470 trunk road) from Caersws to Llanidloes anyone?

The B4569 is just 0.3km further than the A470 (although the A470 wasn't too bad when I rode it about 1pm on the start of the 4C) and adds some extra ascent (115m more than the main road).  You could use the Red Lion in Trefeglwys as a control - rather charmingly the pub is also the post office.   https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.5041603,-3.5184472,3a,75y,286.95h,77.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sULRS8ZgDDXAZ9ux2_aNeoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Up thread - yes you do have 42 hours for the 6C as a BR - although I always plan on 40 hours for a 600 so that I've got 2 hours contingency
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 574 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)