Winter tyres - 23s or 25s?

[eml1909]

Time to put on some winter tyres for my daily commute (and occasional longer ride at the weekend).

Having researched it, I think I will go for Micheln Krylions. I'm slightly concerned about the lack of grip in the wet, but I don't want to compromise too much in terms of weight / speed.

I currently run Continental Grand Prix 700x24c and I'm wondering whether I should go for the Krylions in 700x23c or 200x25c - it's only a marginal difference, but I can't decide which to go for.

The 25's will be more comfortable and have a better grip, I assume, but I guess they will be heavier and slower than the 23's.

Anyone else have any experience of the Krylions and can anyone offer any advice which size to go for? Are 23s too narrow for the winter? Will the 25s be much slower?

[David Martin]

It's not the width, it is the rubber. Michelin Pro Race Grip are excellent in the winter. They just wear rather rapidly and cut up. IME bontraer rubber is crap in the winter - too hard and slippy when the temperature drops.

[eck]

I have Krylons in both 23 and 25. The only difference I can discern is that the 25s give a slightly plusher ride. YMMV

[eml1909]

Interesting, thanks. But presumably they are a bit slower than the 23s, no?

And how do youfind their grip in the wet?

The alternative would be Gatorskins ...

[tatanab]

I know you can still find Krylions in 23 but I expect they would be very hard to track down in 25 since they were never easy to get.  The replacement tyre is the Pro 4 Endurance.  I have Krylions and Pro 4 Endurance in 25 and I think the Pros roll a little more nicely.  That does not mean I can measure any difference.  I have used Krylions in 23 and 25 and again cannot say there is any difference to be measured by me.

The alternative would be Gatorskins ...

I'd suggest 4 Seasons which were my favourite until they got too expensive for my pocket.

[eck]

TBH, I doubt if you would notice any difference, especially on a winter commute. If you're not going for a PB every time you go to work, I'd go for 25s for commuting.
They do grip well; they have a soft-ish rubber, which grips well on wet /greasy surfaces but that may make them more prone to cuts than harder, but less grippy, rubber.

I can't comment on Gatorskins, I've never really got on with Contis.

BTW, Can you still get Krylions? They've been discontinued: I have the newer Pro Race Endurance on one of my bikes, and IME they are virtually the same tyres.

EDIT: Kind of cross-posted with tatanab.

[eml1909]

I based my decision on an article I read last winter, so it may well be that the Krylions have been discontinued.

I'm no speed freak, but I do like to push myself on the way home and breaking my PB.  Since discovering strava I've shaved 4 minutes off my 8 mile commute.  Whilst safety on London roads is most important, I don't want to compromise too much on speed/weight.

Assuming I go for the Pro Endurance instead of the Krylions, do you think I will notice much difference in rolling speed if I go for the 25s? And are the 25s much safer / grippier than the 23s anyway?

APpreciate all your advice - thanks

[Biggsy]

You've basically got the speed thing the wrong way round, at least when it comes to normal cycling.  23s only possibly have lower rolling resistance than 25s (of the same model) on the smoothest surfaces, and then only if highly inflated.  Narrower tyres are popular with racers only because they're lighter and more aerodynamic, but even some pro teams use tyres wider than they used to.

You can use lower pressure with 25s before risk of pinch-puncture.  This provides extra grip and comfort.

[eml1909]

Thanks, Biggsy - helpful, as ever.

But the point remains - 23s will be faster than 25s, no? The question is - by how much?

ALso, is it correct that the 25s will be safer/grippier?

[Canardly]

There is much debate regarding rolling resistance of narrow v wider tyres atm. Apparently some pro teams are now going large due to lower rolling resistance. Counter intuitive but there we are.

[Biggsy]

But the point remains - 23s will be faster than 25s, no?

No!  They'll be slower, unless you ride exlusively on really smooth roads, or maybe if you ride as fast as a pro racer to benefit from the slight aerodynamic advantage (and even these points are debateable).

Yes 25s will be safer and grippier as long as you don't pump them up too hard.

[eml1909]

No!  They'll be slower, unless you ride exlusively on really smooth roads, or maybe if you ride as fast as a pro racer to benefit from the slight aerodynamic advantage (and even these points are debateable).

Interesting! Not sure what you mean by "really smooth" roads. I ride on normal London inner city roads - a few potholes, naturally, but, on the whole, they are smooth - no grit or gravel.  My commute is 9 miles each way from NW London (Hendon) to the City.  Does that count as smooth?

[vorsprung]

None of your tyres would be the sort of thing I'd use for a winter commute

My winter / all year / all condition commute bike is a Cotic Road rat with an Alfine and clearance for large tyres.  It will take 35mm Marathon Winter Ice tyres with mudguards.  Normally I use it with 28mm Marathon Plus

I have tried using normal tyres like Krylions for commuting in the winter and the grip on mud and snow was dubious and the punctures often

[vorsprung]

No!  They'll be slower, unless you ride exlusively on really smooth roads, or maybe if you ride as fast as a pro racer to benefit from the slight aerodynamic advantage (and even these points are debateable).

Interesting! Not sure what you mean by "really smooth" roads.

Like a race track or velodrome

[eml1909]

No!  They'll be slower, unless you ride exlusively on really smooth roads, or maybe if you ride as fast as a pro racer to benefit from the slight aerodynamic advantage (and even these points are debateable).

Interesting! Not sure what you mean by "really smooth" roads.

Like a race track or velodrome

But surely the majority of people running 23s are not doing most of their riding on tracks or velodromes?

DOn't most club riders do their road training using 23s rather than 25s?

[Andrew Br]

.............. more aerodynamic,..............

I believe that this is also being questioned; from what I've read (don't ask me where and I'm certain that it wasn't peer reviewed) the wider tyre helps the boundary layer stay in contact longer and it thus reduces aerodynamic drag.
What I'm certain of is that it'll make bugger all difference to 99.99% of commuters.
Another certainty; for a given type of tyre, the wider version will be heavier.
It'll make bugger all difference to....................

FWIW, I tend to use larger tyres on my bikes 'cos I like the extra cushioning and I prefer to have more rubber on the road.
I'm currently thinking of retiring my 24mm Paves (they're cutting up really badly) and going for either 28mm Supremes or Ultremo DDs.
Vittoria do a 27mm Pave tubular. That'd be perfect in a clincher IMO.
If they ditched the green tread.

[vorsprung]

No!  They'll be slower, unless you ride exlusively on really smooth roads, or maybe if you ride as fast as a pro racer to benefit from the slight aerodynamic advantage (and even these points are debateable).

Interesting! Not sure what you mean by "really smooth" roads.

Like a race track or velodrome

But surely the majority of people running 23s are not doing most of their riding on tracks or velodromes?

Don't most club riders do their road training using 23s rather than 25s?

Most road bikes are designed to take 23mm tyres and don't have mudguard mounts.  Most road bikes have 52T large chain rings.  Most road bikes ape the sort of bike that Pro riders ride.

23mm tyres work fine on normal roads.  But you were discussing marginal differences in performance on normal roads, in the winter.  If there is any advantage, then it is in the favour of the 25mm tyre.

Smooth track, like a miltary spec runway, a motor racing track or a velodrome, tyre can be run at higher pressures + bike being ridden in a race where acceleration is critical = small advantage to 23mm tyre

Normal roads + bike being ridden in traffic and not in a race = small advantage to 25mm tyre

TBH the pros and cons of a 23 vs 25mm tyre are not large

[Biggsy]

eml1909, club riders and racers used to use 20s.  23s then became the norm for many, and now 25s are increasing in popularity.  That's the trend.

By really smooth, I mean the very smoothest tarmac.  Most of London's road is rough enough to make 25s roll better than 23s, I reckon.

Personally I have 23s on one bike, but only because there's not decent room for wider tyres.

[Andrew Br]

I'm currently thinking of retiring my 24mm Paves (they're cutting up really badly)

Another puncture today (and for Helen too.......).
New tyres needed.
They will be 25mm minimum.
I'm likely to go for 28mm.

[hatler]

There was a chap who used to post here from Michelin (Kid Jambo ?) who spent quite a bit of time explaining what was happening with the Michelin range. From what I recall he said that the Krylion was being renamed Pro 4 Endurance. I don't know what sizes they come in.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Over 8 miles, in city traffic, rolling resistance is really not a huge factor (unless you are comparing spiked ice tyres with 23mm slicks).

More of a factor is the angular momentum of the rotating mass on your bike. Stop-start cycling through traffic makes this more of a factor than rolling resistance or aerodynamics. It's why Bromptons can be very fast away from lights.

go with 25s, they will be slightly less prone to pinch punctures than 23s.

[eml1909]

Thanks to everyone for their advice - much appreciated.  Having researched it a bit more, I've gone with Continental Four Seasons in 700x25 - ordered from Bike-Discount.de - £25 each (plus £5 p&p).

[Canardly]

Good choice