Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: whosatthewheel on 29 May, 2018, 11:35:54 am
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Given the popularity of RRTY, I was thiking what could be an alternative, more flexible award, based on the round the year concept... so I came up with this
12 consecutive brevets in as many months, can be BP, BR or BRM (and of course all Perms and DIY count)... only one brevet per calendar month can be claimed and it is counted in integer points (100 km or more = 1 point, 200 km or more = 2 points and so on). The total for the year needs to be at least 25 points, to avoid any RRTY to be an automatic BRTY 2500 too. As a consequence, at least one ride needs to be a 300 or longer, but equally many can be BP 100.
Thoughts?
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This is a slight tweak (oh OK - improvement) on an idea floated before. I think I championed the most recent version, I might try to find the thread. Sadly it wasn't popular!
What I like is avoiding the compulsion to ride 200s in Dec-Feb; from experience this is often pretty miserable (as opposed to audacious) for the full-value rider, and can be down-right dangerous with snow/ice, for those that can't easily pick their free days.
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I don't think this proposed award has enough differentiation from the RRtY to be a viable stand-alone award. I think the 'randonneur' aspect of the RRtY name would act against changing the RRtY to this.
Randonneurs USA has the P-12 award for <200km brevets only https://rusa.org/pages/award-p12 and the R-12 award for 200(+)km brevets https://rusa.org/pages/award-r12
Audax Australia has the Petite Year Round Randonneur. https://www.audax.org.au/public/68-awards/386-petite-year-round-award
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Would it overlap with these two to an extent?
Brevet 1000. The Brevet 1,000 award was introduced by AUK in 1996. It is either: 5 x 200 km events ridden in one Randonneur year (longer events cannot be included) or: 10 x 100 km events ridden over any period of time. You can count 150s with the 100s - but not mix BR and BP.
Brevet 2000. Introduced in 1996 the B2000 consists of either: 10 x 200 km or: 20 x 100 km events, ridden over any period of time. You cannot mix BP and BR, and you cannot substitute longer rides, other than 150 km in the BP series.
And thinking about the combinations which would count:
If you do a single 300, you have to do 11 x 200s to reach 25 points - you still have to do a 200 in Dec and Jan, but you'd get both the Brevet 1000 and the Brevet 2000;
If you do a single 400, you have to do at least 10 x 200s - one would have to be in either Dec or Jan, again you'd still get the two awards above.
This is assuming you do the longest ride in a nice month!
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I like it! It needs a snappy name though.
I like that it incentivises doing longer rides (300+). I know when I did RRTY I felt obliged to only attempt 200s as anything longer was a risk with no reward.
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What I like is avoiding the compulsion to ride 200s in Dec-Feb; from experience this is often pretty miserable (as opposed to audacious) for the full-value rider, and can be down-right dangerous with snow/ice, for those that can't easily pick their free days.
But the whole point of RRTY, indeed any Audax, is it's not a given, is it not?
Believe me, I've had some miserable days out this winter, but that's the game I thought?
That said, I do like the idea of having to ride at least 1 longer event. The more I look at it, the more I see that it is not necessarily easier than RRTY. It could be argued it is more difficult, as if you do "play safe" over winter, you are gambling on being able to make it up later in the year.
Yes - I do like it.
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Good feedback...
a few points
1) It wouldn't replace RRTY, but run alongside
2) The idea is to give more credit to BPs, which currently count for very little and as Matt says, avoid having to ride long 200 km in winter, with the risk of ice... it also gives you a second chance if for any reason you cannot run a 200 (weather, time...) but maybe you can ride a 100.
3) In a way it does raise the game, as you do need to ride at least one 300, more than one (or more than a 300) if you claim one or more BP.
It might run alongside the B1000 and B2000, but in essence it is different and it is more challenging, as you still retain the 12 consecutive months element. Bear in mind a lot of awards Do overlap... Considering how many people target specifically RRTY, it could be popular.
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What I like is avoiding the compulsion to ride 200s in Dec-Feb; from experience this is often pretty miserable (as opposed to audacious) for the full-value rider, and can be down-right dangerous with snow/ice, for those that can't easily pick their free days.
But the whole point of RRTY, indeed any Audax, is it's not a given, is it not?
Believe me, I've had some miserable days out this winter, but that's the game I thought?
I think there is a wide range of views on this in AUK! Personally, I've been-there-done-that; TypeII fun at best. I see no need to repeat it, and I don't recommend it to any new AUK member.
I like a challenge - but FOR ME that is different to setting out to be miserable. I certainly don't enter every summer event with a certainty of completion!
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What I like is avoiding the compulsion to ride 200s in Dec-Feb; from experience this is often pretty miserable (as opposed to audacious) for the full-value rider, and can be down-right dangerous with snow/ice, for those that can't easily pick their free days.
But the whole point of RRTY, indeed any Audax, is it's not a given, is it not?
Believe me, I've had some miserable days out this winter, but that's the game I thought?
I think there is a wide range of views on this in AUK! Personally, I've been-there-done-that; TypeII fun at best. I see no need to repeat it, and I don't recommend it to any new AUK member.
I like a challenge - but FOR ME that is different to setting out to be miserable. I certainly don't enter every summer event with a certainty of completion!
Iagree with you, in that now I've done it, I'd be in no rush to repeat it (in the conditions). For me, the RRTY was incidental to this years goal. It wasn't important, but I got so far in, I was distraught when I almost missed it in March.
I whole heartedly recomend it to all though - it is difficult, because as you say, even a summer 200 is a sure thing.
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Points for 100km? ::-)
I'm afraid I think this is too similar in stature to RRTY to capture anyone's interest. I've done RRTY twice and the challenging bit IS those winter 200's. Anyone who can ride 200km once could do RRTY if they really apply themselves: the short days and weather add another dimension to the endeavour.
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Points for 100km? ::-)
I'm afraid I think this is too similar in stature to RRTY to capture anyone's interest. I've done RRTY twice and the challenging bit IS those winter 200's. Anyone who can ride 200km once could do RRTY if they really apply themselves: the short days and weather add another dimension to the endeavour.
Yes and no.
The issue I have as someone who is a beginner struggling to do more than 200's. For .nl, there are a shortage of 200's and 300's in June. You are almost forced to do a 400 or 600 if you want to do Rrty in .nl. It's a lot easier in the UK, which has more rides, and allows for perms and DIY's.
J
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Points for 100km? ::-)
I'm afraid I think this is too similar in stature to RRTY to capture anyone's interest. I've done RRTY twice and the challenging bit IS those winter 200's. Anyone who can ride 200km once could do RRTY if they really apply themselves: the short days and weather add another dimension to the endeavour.
Yes, yes, but the problem is not the challenge... I can wrap up and head out.. the problem is that finding a 10 hour ice free slot is not necessarily possible if you also have another life beyond AUK.
For instance, I could not find a safe window to head out for a 200 last February... others did risk it, which I think is wrong even to consider and others do have more time in their hands or live in a more favourable location, maybe with more reliable gritting and whatnot.
A more flexible RTY brevet would allow more inclusivity among those who would like to ride a brevet every month, but not necessarily and solely a 200
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Yes, yes, but the problem is not the challenge... I can wrap up and head out.. the problem is that finding a 10 hour ice free slot is not necessarily possible if you also have another life beyond AUK.
For instance, I could not find a safe window to head out for a 200 last February... others did risk it, which I think is wrong even to consider and others do have more time in their hands or live in a more favourable location, maybe with more reliable gritting and whatnot.
A more flexible RTY brevet would allow more inclusivity among those who would like to ride a brevet every month, but not necessarily and solely a 200
I've done 90km on studded tyres... I wonder how masochistic it would be to try a 200 on them...
My first every 200k audax was in January this year. It was rather novel doing a 300 in april and being able to feel my feet. It's the first audax of the year I've had feeling in my feet...
J
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Alternatively, one could think of 12 consecutive months, but with the possibility to claim more than one brevet per month... maybe the total being 30 points or so... this way it would be substantially different from RRTY, with in principle no need to ride anything longer than a BP and yet retaining the 12 months commitment element
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I like it! It needs a snappy name though.
I like that it incentivises doing longer rides (300+). I know when I did RRTY I felt obliged to only attempt 200s as anything longer was a risk with no reward.
As a former RRTY administrator, I don't like this one bit! I got into RRTY in the first place because although I was beginning to become comfortable with 200s, any further Randonneur awards would involve me having to step up to 300s, which I wasn't prepared to do. As it happens, the discipline of riding a 200 in consecutive months got me to the point where I was then able to contemplate riding a 300 - and many years later I'm now one ride away from becoming an Ultra Randonneur.
I don't want to belittle the achievements of those who only have the time commitments, or fitness levels, or willpower, or whatever, to only ride 100km events but anything less than a 200 doesn't really do it for me. Long distance may be in the eyes of the beholder, but 200km is generally seen as the bench mark (but other views are available).
The RRTY award has a simplicity, although anyone attempting this feat will soon learn that work and family commitments, weather, health and other factors all have a part to pay to make it an achievement
I always avoided, as RRTY administrator, committing to running a BP round the Year. The amount of work involved in verifying such an award would have been way beyond what I was capable of taking on. The existing RRTY and AAARTY awards already take up two volunteers' efforts. But there is no reason why riders can't set there own personal challenges and award themselves whatever it is they want. If we had an Eddington administrator, I'm 5 rides away from claiming my E134 award (134 rides of 134 miles or more).
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Every award short of R10,000 is going to result in extra work for the relevant administrator. Is it a good reason to cap the number of awards? AUK is in essence a validation body that gives out awards as an incentive to validate what otherwise are just bicycle rides. In the absence or prizes and awards, who would bother to pay 3-4 quid to have a DIY ride validated?
The idea is to have something a bit more challenging than a simple 12 x 100 BP, to avoid it being a mountain of work.
I think the 25 points with one claim per month or the 30 points with more than one claim should address that to an extent.
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In agreement with all of Delph Cyclist’s post, especially the point about long distance. AUK is the long distance cyclists’ association, with ‘long distance’ defined as 200km or more. If we start handing out awards for less audacious distances, we’re changing the entire purpose and function of the association.
Yes, I know AAA already dilutes the distance criterion, but it is at least arguable that the climbing makes a AAA 100km ride equivalently audacious to a 200km ride.
And yes, of course RRtY is hard to maintain during the winter - that’s the whole bl@@#y point!
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In agreement with all of Delph Cyclist’s post, especially the point about long distance. AUK is the long distance cyclists’ association, with ‘long distance’ defined as 200km or more. If we start handing out awards for less audacious distances, we’re changing the entire purpose and function of the association.
Yes, I know AAA already dilutes the distance criterion, but it is at least arguable that the climbing makes a AAA 100km ride equivalently audacious to a 200km ride.
And yes, of course RRtY is hard to maintain during the winter - that’s the whole bl@@#y point!
This is SO NOT TRUE!
If you look at the results page, you will notice that with a few notable exceptions, the most popular events are BP and not BR.
Long distance is very relative... maybe for you it starts at 200 km, maybe for someone else it starts at 50 km, there isn't a recipe that works for all. I have come across some 80+ y.o. members who are very audacious to even consider starting a 100 km
200 km is simply the line that separates Randonneur from Populaire... AUK IS NOT a "Randonneurs club"
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I was quoting from the official AUK web pages and FAQs
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I was quoting from the official AUK web pages and FAQs
You are confusing Audax with Randonneur... AUK promotes long distance, whatever that means to you... as I said, if you look at the results page, you will find that many of the events with 100+ finishers are BP. I have often entered 200 km events where the majority of brevet cards laid out are for the shorter BP distances.
There are loads of Randonneur awards, but not many awards for non randonneur events...
Short distances are by far the most important for AUK... that's where new members are gained...
For instance, if you look at the Kingston Wheelers 400, only 3 finishers are non AUK
Troutbeck 300 none
Brevet Cymru 10 out of 135
Brimstone 600 none
Meriden 105 BP more than half the field
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What I like is avoiding the compulsion to ride 200s in Dec-Feb; from experience this is often pretty miserable (as opposed to audacious) for the full-value rider, and can be down-right dangerous with snow/ice, for those that can't easily pick their free days.
The distinction between misery and audacious so often is a matter of attitude. When the days are short and the weather iffy, you've got to be up for it. Get that right and you're good to go, I find. :)
Yet there is scope for a wider range of RRTY awards, formal or informal, to recognise endeavours and provide new goals, whether that be to bring BP riders into the fold (RRTY100?), or more RRTY200/300/400/600/....), or a RRTY points total.
Not forgetting fixed and AAA variants, of course!
The problem is the admin... nominally the AUK website would do the sums but that doesn't seem realistic.
I note AUK is currently looking for a RRTY admin. Who is going to bell the cat?
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No, I’m just giving replies you don’t agree with. ‘Long distance’ is not and cannot be ‘whatever that means to you’, otherwise we quickly reach a lowest common denominator where because one person thinks 50km is a long distance then that becomes the definition. Instead, there has to be a threshold, and the current threshold for what constitutes ‘long distance’ is set at 200km.
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I note AUK is currently looking for a RRTY admin. Who is going to bell the cat?
Appropriately... ;D
I have volunteered to do the Excel work and write the annual report, now let's see if anyone actually replies to me... ::-)
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I was quoting from the official AUK web pages and FAQs
From the FAQs
How long is 'long-distance'?
The 'classic' distances for AUK events are 200km, 300km, 400km and 600km. (200km is approximately 125 miles - kilometres are used because of AUK's close links with other similar organisations throughout the world, and particularly in France.) Most AUK events are either 200km or 100km.
However AUK aims to have something for everybody and events start from 50km (about 32 miles) and go all the way up to 1400km (about 875 miles), and even this is not the limit because there are set routes, known as 'Permanents', which span the length and breadth of the country and go up to 3200km.
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The problem is the admin... nominally the AUK website would do the sums but that doesn't seem realistic.
If it were RRTS rather than RRTY (ie, round the 'season') it would (a) make it slightly more challenging** and (b) it could practically admin itself in the way that the current annual awards already do.
** though I agree RRTY is quite challenging enough already - I have never done it but did do two 11/12 sequences - in both cases it was a SUMMER month that I missed out on (holidays, which then crowd work for the weeks following).
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There is no answer to the question, what is long distance...
What we do have are standard event categories. Less than a 200km is a BP (which don't exist in ACP land) and 200km and over are BR.
ACP have declared Randonneur a title/reserved word.. personally, I wouldn't get hung up on that.
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Suggestion: Start a thread on here. Call it “Audax-a-month club” or something. Everyone can choose their own format (within the 12 consecutive months framework). If it’s popular you can think about formalising an award in a year or two.
(I would be up for this)
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Suggestion: Start a thread on here. Call it “Audax-a-month club” or something. Everyone can choose their own format (within the 12 consecutive months framework). If it’s popular you can think about formalising an award in a year or two.
(I would be up for this)
We should start in October all together to keep things simpler...
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Though I wouldn't mandate it, it definitely makes sense to start a RRTY effort in the autumn if possible. That way if things go pear-shaped over winter you've too lost much.
( I'm another with two 11 month streaks ending in December! As much my fault as the weather, though)
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Though I wouldn't mandate it, it definitely makes sense to start a RRTY effort in the autumn if possible.
But we're not talking about RRTY ...
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Though I wouldn't mandate it, it definitely makes sense to start a RRTY effort in the autumn if possible.
But we're not talking about RRTY ...
Correct, it cannot begin with an R, it needs to be a BRTY or something more inspiring
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I've done 90km on studded tyres... I wonder how masochistic it would be to try a 200 on them...
I've done a few 200s on studded tyres. It's good training!
On the one calendar ride where I rode on studs, and was the only rider to do so, I was glad of it. Most other riders fell off on some of the icy lanes and I could push on where they were taking it easy in an attempt to stay upright.
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Not really liking the original post. I am 8 months into my first RRTY attempt and I really had to make a big effort to get through Jan to March dealing with illness, weather, mechanicals etc.
Having an "equivalent" award which does not require winter riding seems a bit of a cop out.
I think consideration could be given to making the Brevet 2000 a season based award rather than all time. This would allow riders to do the bulk of their riding in the warmer months.
I would also support a RTY 12 x 100 award. Some posters have said that this would be difficult to administer but I would think that the bulk of this could be automated? Interested to understand more about the issues with admin relating to this.
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Having an "equivalent" award which does not require winter riding seems a bit of a cop out.
Who said it is equivalent? It cannot be equivalent if it not the same thing. AAASR and SR are almost equivalent, but they are different awards
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Maybe an AAA RTY?
Any brevet of any distance as long as it has AAA points x 12 consecutive months
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Given the popularity of RRTY, I was thiking what could be an alternative, more flexible award, based on the round the year concept... so I came up with this
12 consecutive brevets in as many months, can be BP, BR or BRM (and of course all Perms and DIY count)... only one brevet per calendar month can be claimed and it is counted in integer points (100 km or more = 1 point, 200 km or more = 2 points and so on). The total for the year needs to be at least 25 points, to avoid any RRTY to be an automatic BRTY 2500 too. As a consequence, at least one ride needs to be a 300 or longer, but equally many can be BP 100.
Thoughts?
I wonder what the number of RRTY awardees that did not do a single 200km ride in the year is. I suspect it's a very small proportion, so I'd be quite surprised if there more than a handfull of riders who achieved rrty who wouldn't have got 25 points across 12 rides.
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Maybe an AAA RTY?
Any brevet of any distance as long as it has AAA points x 12 consecutive months
It already exists... See http://www.aukweb.net/results/aaa/aaawds/aaartyroll/
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Given the popularity of RRTY, I was thiking what could be an alternative, more flexible award, based on the round the year concept... so I came up with this
12 consecutive brevets in as many months, can be BP, BR or BRM (and of course all Perms and DIY count)... only one brevet per calendar month can be claimed and it is counted in integer points (100 km or more = 1 point, 200 km or more = 2 points and so on). The total for the year needs to be at least 25 points, to avoid any RRTY to be an automatic BRTY 2500 too. As a consequence, at least one ride needs to be a 300 or longer, but equally many can be BP 100.
Thoughts?
I wonder what the number of RRTY awardees that did not do a single 200km ride in the year is. I suspect it's a very small proportion, so I'd be quite surprised if there more than a handfull of riders who achieved rrty who wouldn't have got 25 points across 12 rides.
If you check out the RRtY stats in Arrivee 139 then it has the number of claims which were people riding one ride per month and doing exclusively 200km rides.... I think quite a few members don't have time to complete many rides but do focus on RRtY.
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Maybe an AAA RTY?
Any brevet of any distance as long as it has AAA points x 12 consecutive months
It already exists... See http://www.aukweb.net/results/aaa/aaawds/aaartyroll/
Ha... I didn't spot that... I am onto the case then... ;D