;D
Which presumably makes discussion boards such as this completely pointless
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.
Probably more a reflection of the number of times the comments were reiterated though - positive and negative.
Can't help thinking my last post was the straw that broke the camel's back - poor choice of words.
Won't post on here in future, sorry guys.
Can't help thinking my last post was the straw that broke the camel's back - poor choice of words.
Won't post on here in future, sorry guys.
Not really. I think 'excellence' mostly involves being polite and not being insulting.It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.
Probably more a reflection of the number of times the comments were reiterated though - positive and negative.
"Excellence to each other, to those riding the HAMR and their teams is the protocol my circuits have been programmed to follow." seems to prevent anything other than positive comments.
So we can politely say that somebody is doing it all wrong?
deluded
out of step with the facts
So we can politely say that somebody is doing it all wrong?
Like we did with Miles?QuotedeludedQuoteout of step with the facts
Just a couple of quickly found quotes from the Miles thread.
QuoteWhich presumably makes discussion boards such as this completely pointless
Beyond a certain point, yes. There comes a point when its all been said and said again.
Can we wait for the moderator(s) to take action before passing judgement on them? It's only reasonable that they can lock a thread and take time to discuss it before composing and posting (which also takes time) an official ruling on ...whatever.
QuoteWhich presumably makes discussion boards such as this completely pointless
Beyond a certain point, yes. There comes a point when its all been said and said again.
Since when was that an issue? You may find it tedious, but it's the nature of conversation. It's certainly not a reason to lock a thread. The level of 'lack of excellence' was trivial; no-one threw the smallest teddy out of their cot. I have to say that it looked suspiciously (to me) like it was locked because there was an uncomfortable degree of lack of faith in Steve's liklihood of making the targetted distance. Silencing an opinion won't change it, and risks reactions which were unintended.
I have to say I am livid that it was closed.
Can we wait for the moderator(s) to take action before passing judgement on them? It's only reasonable that they can lock a thread and take time to discuss it before composing and posting (which also takes time) an official ruling on ...whatever.
The action has been taken. The opportunity to give at least a holding explanation is offered to a moderator at the point of locking a thread, but in this case it wasn't taken. Frankly, given the interest in that thread, I regard that as plain rude.
I hope you're right, Kim, but the likelihood of significant fallout increases with the delay in explaining the actions.
I hope you're right, Kim, but the likelihood of significant fallout increases with the delay in explaining the actions.
Perhaps, but if were able to maintain a sufficient standard of excellence, it shouldn't.
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)
I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.
That is all.
I hope you're right, Kim, but the likelihood of significant fallout increases with the delay in explaining the actions.
I think that's for Steve to decide.
I don't know how amenable he is to anyone's advice.
However, it is indeed apparently 'lack of excellence' and circularity which have upset the mods. I suspect that, without any other action, this or any other thread discussing the HAM'R will repeat the same crimes - and, indeed, the same posts.Someone calmer than me made a post about how we might have more constructive debate:
So; Steve - is he doing it right, and should he stop now....?!
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)Same applies to refereeing rugby matches.
I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.
That is all.
Would it be possible to have one thread to discuss "thoughts on the current record attempt(s)" and another to discuss the rights and wrongs of doing so?
Would it be possible to have one thread to discuss "thoughts on the current record attempt(s)" and another to discuss the rights and wrongs of doing so?
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.
Probably more a reflection of the number of times the comments were reiterated though - positive and negative.
"Excellence to each other, to those riding the HAMR and their teams is the protocol my circuits have been programmed to follow." seems to prevent anything other than positive comments.
Can we wait for the moderator(s) to take action before passing judgement on them? It's only reasonable that they can lock a thread and take time to discuss it before composing and posting (which also takes time) an official ruling on ...whatever.
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)Same applies to refereeing rugby matches.
I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.
That is all.
I only ever explained one decision on the pitch
In the bar afterwards was open for discussion over a beer
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)Same applies to refereeing rugby matches.
I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.
That is all.
I only ever explained one decision on the pitch
In the bar afterwards was open for discussion over a beer
I always explain every decision when reffing rugby, usually along the lines of "knock on but no advantage from blue offside here so penalty to red". Explanation is different to discussion.
So this is a time-constrained rugby match? Forgive me, I hadn't noticed.
I think this thread is failing to live up to its title. It should be "thoughts on locking rambling maybe circular threads which otherwise are what forums/fora are all about." A bit of a mouthful I admit.But a great title, nonetheless! But point taken; I will desist.
So this is a time-constrained rugby match? Forgive me, I hadn't noticed.
So this is a time-constrained rugby match? Forgive me, I hadn't noticed.
Bruce is an ex-pro, I believe (Sigma Sport), and currently either an Elite or 1st Cat rider, and his riding reflects that pedigree. Obviously he's very comfortable with hard riding, and he'd probably regard 30kmh as a relatively low average speed, even though it's beyond most of us. Given the discussions in the old thread about how a pro would fare, I suggest Bruce will go a long way towards answering that.
The monthly mini-targets are rather misleading since they end up giving Steve 77149.5 - I'll have a stab at pro-rating them down to give a total of 76076
Bum, that didn't work - try this:
Bum, that didn't work - try this:
Yes, it did :thumbsup:
Bruce's Garmin, yesterday:
<snip image>
Bum, that didn't work - try this:
Clicky (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYbUCfLU0AAkMk6.jpg)
Bruce is an ex-pro, I believe (Sigma Sport), and currently either an Elite or 1st Cat rider, and his riding reflects that pedigree. Obviously he's very comfortable with hard riding, and he'd probably regard 30kmh as a relatively low average speed, even though it's beyond most of us. Given the discussions in the old thread about how a pro would fare, I suggest Bruce will go a long way towards answering that.
Bruce is an ex-pro, I believe (Sigma Sport), and currently either an Elite or 1st Cat rider, and his riding reflects that pedigree. Obviously he's very comfortable with hard riding, and he'd probably regard 30kmh as a relatively low average speed, even though it's beyond most of us. Given the discussions in the old thread about how a pro would fare, I suggest Bruce will go a long way towards answering that.
I tried to find some results for Bruce. He was 9th in a Surrey League race in 2003.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/UK/2003/sep03/sep14lesingman
That seems to be a Norwood Paragon promotion, Evans seemed to sponsor the series back then. They're more into sportives now.
That’s actually some distance short of the 13,813 kilometres that Tommy Godwin rode in 1939 on his way to establishing a new record for distance ridden in a year, and the likelihood is that Berkeley’s mark will be beaten at some point this year by Steve Abraham and Kurt Searvogel.
Kurt and Tommy Godwin will probably have beaten 10000k in a month, and Steve as well, I would guess, as incidentals in their quest for the year record. I reckon Kurt's 15/11/2015-15/12/2015 would be well up there. He was over a Godwin for every day that month.
I think Bruce was done under Guinness though so I guess he still has their record?Quote
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month
https://www.strava.com/athletes/1170624#interval?interval=201530&interval_type=week&chart_type=miles&year_offset=0
The afternoon's stage of 84 miles around the South Downs saw a breakaway group of 13 riders go clear in the opening miles and build a lead that at one time exceeded 4 minutes. Most of the main teams were represented in the break with VC St Raphael, Energy Cycles, Evans RT and Parrot Print RT each having two riders but the greatest beneficiary looked to be Dave Berkeley (Sigma Sport RT) who looked like becoming the new race leader. However, in an exciting finale the main bunch reduced the group's lead to less than two minutes and at the finish Justin Hoy (Evans RT) produced an outstanding sprint to win the stage ahead of Timmy Barry (Ras Mumhan) and Berkeley.
He seems to have been a good rider at a regional level, his team never got any national points, as far as I can see.
Kurt and Tommy Godwin will probably have beaten 10000k in a month, and Steve as well, I would guess, as incidentals in their quest for the year record. I reckon Kurt's 15/11/2015-15/12/2015 would be well up there. He was over a Godwin for every day that month.
I'd guess (just visually) he's somewhere between Kurt and Steve's ages, but much closer to Kurt in his approach, treating it as an athletic rather than an Audax-style challenge.Given the mind-boggling magnitude of the challenge, is there any other way to see it? How does a rider get the miles otherwise? Unless you don't need to sleep for a year.
Apparently I've made an utter oaf of myself on Twitter by confusing some other chap with Steve. I posted this photo...
https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896 (https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896)
To be fair when a lady questions my judgement I always defer as, in my experience, they are usually right.
Seeing as Steve did LEL accompanied by a bottle of JD, I reckon it is him. It does look like Olaf though. Will the real redfalo please stand up?
Apparently I've made an utter oaf of myself on Twitter by confusing some other chap with Steve. I posted this photo...
https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896 (https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896)
Of course that's Steve. I'd recognise that bike anywhere (and the bloke sitting on it, of course).
I'm going to stick my neck out now and say I reckon Bruce will beat the record with a daily average of 210.something
I'm assuming his passport is up to date? Why the heck isn't he somewhere warm and flat?
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.
Do we discredit any TDF winners or the Team GB cyclists for not achieving what they did the "real way"? And what is the "real way" anyway?
And they aren't tourists! If they were there would be panniers, tea rooms, pubs and quite possibly, camping gear. :D
And they aren't tourists! If they were there would be panniers, tea rooms, pubs and quite possibly, camping gear. :D
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.
Some people don't like to think. Such is life.
Steve has already compromised his original "real" approach. Transfers and a non-1 January start are two examples.And his first (finished) attempt was mega-compromised by using a recumbent! (Admittedly, he was quite heroically pedalling it with one leg, but that's a minor detail...)
However, for those advising a 1 January 2017 relaunch there are some practical considerations, which I don't think have got much airtime: what does Steve do for the next 11 months...
Perhaps the people on the london marathon should get the tube every so often. ;)Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.
Some people don't like to think. Such is life.
Perhaps Usain Bolt should wear old leather spikes, heavy flannel shorts and run on a cinder track if he wants his 100m world record to be "real".
However, for those advising a 1 January 2017 relaunch there are some practical considerations, which I don't think have got much airtime: what does Steve do for the next 11 monthsGo on celeb BB?
He'll make that decision if he decides he's got to the point that it looks like too much.See I don't think that will happen because I don't think he devotes much time at all to evaluating what his remaining chances are. So he's got no idea how far "behind" or not he is. As far as he's concerned all he's going to do is just pedal as far as he thinks he can every day till august and if he gets it, he gets it, if he doesn't, he doesn't. He hasn't got time to sit down and do maths and work out the numbers for required mpd increase like we have.
Steve's schedule has been updated by the team: http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation and their overall target reduced to 76,258.
Well, I got halfway to work and turned around and went home again after twenty minutes riding into the freezing sleet. Currently at the computer working at home with a fleece blanket on. If I could go and do winter in the south of France or Spain or anywhere that is as you say, 'warm and flat', I'd be there, purity and dogged Britishness be damned!! I hate winter, and I always forget how much I hate it until it comes back again.
I really hope that Steve can do it, but I admit that it doesn't look very promising at the moment.
There is a cause for hope however: the Daily Express have predicted the coldest winter in 100 years so it's surely going to be one of the warmest ever?
We can hope so! I reckon ice might just be the last straw.
Just out of interest. Kurt was interviewed in this week's comic and gave the following insights:-
Q: Does Steve Abraham have a chance?
A: If he doesn't get out of England, no. If he'd had a different plan for the winter, he definitely have had a chance.
Q: Godwin, is the comparison fair?
..But if I'd had to do it in England I wouldn't have broken the record, there's no way in hell I'd be riding in the cold. I know that will make the Tommy fans happy.
Great humility from Kurt in my view and underpinning the fact that there are no givens when taking on the challenge over here.
Just out of interest. Kurt was interviewed in this week's comic and gave the following insights:-
Q: Does Steve Abraham have a chance?
A: If he doesn't get out of England, no. If he'd had a different plan for the winter, he definitely have had a chance.
Q: Godwin, is the comparison fair?
..But if I'd had to do it in England I wouldn't have broken the record, there's no way in hell I'd be riding in the cold. I know that will make the Tommy fans happy.
Great humility from Kurt in my view and underpinning the fact that there are no givens when taking on the challenge over here.
This weekend is likely to see the coldest weather in the UK for a few years.
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way. If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!I dont read 99% of whats on FB, however; the above is far too binary a view, and your presumption is probably wrong.
QuoteMany of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way. If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!I dont read 99% of whats on FB, however; the above is far too binary a view, and your presumption is probably wrong.
I explained my reasoning - you'll find it in the bit after the first sentence.QuoteMany of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way. If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!I dont read 99% of whats on FB, however; the above is far too binary a view, and your presumption is probably wrong.
So without reading 99% of it you feel able to say that is "far too binary a view" and my presumption is probably wrong. Are you a clairvoyant?
...it's going to be heroic.
And still he's on the road. 183 miles on the tracker and heading, I reckon, to Great Yarmouth. I hope he can find a damned good nutritious meal and a bed at this time of night. Sever weather warning all over Norfolk for frost and icy roads. Take care, Steve.
And still he's on the road. 183 miles on the tracker and heading, I reckon, to Great Yarmouth. I hope he can find a damned good nutritious meal and a bed at this time of night. Sever weather warning all over Norfolk for frost and icy roads. Take care, Steve.I think this is called a strategy failure. Cycle a long way from base when it is cold and prone to icing with strong and gusting winds. Does no one offer Steve route advice and forward check the weather? I think this must be a no. I know it is easy after the event but even a loop close to home on well known roads would have been better over the next few days. That way you eliminate at least one risk.
Edit: Damn! Wrong thread!
Well, I got halfway to work and turned around and went home again after twenty minutes riding into the freezing sleet. Currently at the computer working at home with a fleece blanket on. If I could go and do winter in the south of France or Spain or anywhere that is as you say, 'warm and flat', I'd be there, purity and dogged Britishness be damned!! I hate winter, and I always forget how much I hate it until it comes back again.
I really hope that Steve can do it, but I admit that it doesn't look very promising at the moment.
There is a cause for hope however: the Daily Express have predicted the coldest winter in 100 years so it's surely going to be one of the warmest ever?
We can hope so! I reckon ice might just be the last straw.
This weekend is likely to see the coldest weather in the UK for a few years. This cold spell will last into next week, after that it's more uncertain. We haven't had an airfrost at my weather station in south Oxfordshire since November. I'm expecting that to change tonight.
I'm assuming his passport is up to date? Why the heck isn't he somewhere warm and flat?
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way. If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!
The way the 'ideology' of Steve's riding methods has grown up is interesting. It doesn't derive from anything that I've ever heard from Steve. Here's an uncut 11 minute conversation with Steve from shortly after PBP, when he was on his way to Dieppe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwUqJ8sdQc8
That idea of what's 'real' has evolved in the presence of material such as that. So I'm sceptical about views of Tommy Godwin's year. Tommy never spoke about what he did, and there seems to be no extant cine footage of him. If myths can evolve around Steve, in the face of real information, what does it say about Tommy?
Comments about Kurt are also interesting. The idea that he is at fault for seeking suitable conditions to ride in is just perverse.
I'm not sure what effect the myths have on Steve's chances, it might be that the myths have fund-raising appeal. More money might help, but it would be a quantum leap to a full-time team manager, with a fully-equipped mobile home/workshop/office, which is what has been proven to work.
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".
Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble". To me, cycling needs to be either useful (transport), competitive (racing, effectively as possible, like Kurt), or enjoyable (leisure). Long distance cycling that doesn't fulfill one of those 3 would still seem to be worthwhile purely for the sake of it to some people as it is deemed 'noble'. I worry that Steve might be falling into this category.
Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself. I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".
Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?
You can fit what Steve is doing into your "competitive" category: it is a race against time and it is a race against his own previous achievements, those of Tommy Godwin, and Kurt's recent year in the saddle. To achieve that, he will need to be "as effective as possible". That will take a different form to Kurt's method, of course.
People tick all manner of boxes inside their heads while they're doing things. It's when they expect others to be ticking those same boxes that it gets a bit weird.
I'd see Steve's record attempt as a management problem. It was originally envisaged that support would be 'crowd-sourced' and a timetable drawn up of where he would be and when. That seemed to prove unwieldy, and was abandoned after the accident.
The optimum solution would seem to be the Kurt approach, but Steve cycles for longer, so you'd need two Alicias, and it would be on a formal, rather than intimate, basis. That would mean weekend cover, and once you start moving to a warmer place, it becomes unworkable.
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble". To me, cycling needs to be either useful (transport), competitive (racing, effectively as possible, like Kurt), or enjoyable (leisure). Long distance cycling that doesn't fulfill one of those 3 would still seem to be worthwhile purely for the sake of it to some people as it is deemed 'noble'. I worry that Steve might be falling into this category.
Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself. I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.
It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.
What's your definition of 'fit'?Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.
It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.
it might get you "good at audax cycling".
What's your definition of 'fit'?Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.
It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.
it might get you "good at audax cycling".
Quote from: Ben T link=topic=95268.msg1974165#msg1974165 date=1452862062
[/quote
Do they think cycling gets you fit? Apart from intense, short hill reps/sprints, it doesn't. Audax cycling certainly doesn't get you fit.
Quote of the weeeeeeek ;D.
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.
I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.
The final and most enduring (unbeaten to date) record set on an RRA was that by 27-year-old Tommy Godwin who established the all-time total of 75,065 miles ridden in a single year. Setting out on a Ley TG Special (with a Reynolds 531 frame) bicycle with a four-speed Cyclo derailleur on 1 January 1939, the demands of the ride proved too much for Ley, a small independent cycle company and on 27 May Raleigh-Sturmey Archer assumed sponsorship with Godwin being provided with a new 21" RRA in special ivory livery fitted with AF hub, 27" sprint rims and tyres, Brooks B17 Flyer saddle and, at times, with the new GH8 Dynohub. He also rode a conventionally black-painted RRA at times.
In addition to running with the AF hub, Godwin also used the new medium-ratio four-speed FM hub starting in October. It was claimed that his average daily mileage increased by 33½ per cent from 156 to 200 using the four-speed hubs. It should be noted that Godwin used an AF hub from March-May on his Ley as well and went from a 155.7-mile average in February to 178.6 in March with the new gear.
Godwin's RRA was probably heavier than his Reynolds 531 Ley but it was the support that Raleigh provided in terms of a manager (Charlie Davey), pacers and limitless technical and parts assistance that made the difference. Raleigh's promotional assets thrust Godwin's efforts into the media spotlight as they hitherto had not been. He was the best advertisement Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer could wish for and posters, postcards and dealer displays flooded the cycle world. As late as 1955, Raleigh touted that a "prototype of the Super Lenton" (sic) was used in the effort.
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.
was that training at constant HR or constant speed?
The former is of course a progressive method where as you get fitter you go faster. I've done it for years for both running and cycling, but it takes discipline.
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.
I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.
He can gnash his teeth all he likes.QuoteThe final and most enduring (unbeaten to date) record set on an RRA was that by 27-year-old Tommy Godwin who established the all-time total of 75,065 miles ridden in a single year. Setting out on a Ley TG Special (with a Reynolds 531 frame) bicycle with a four-speed Cyclo derailleur on 1 January 1939, the demands of the ride proved too much for Ley, a small independent cycle company and on 27 May Raleigh-Sturmey Archer assumed sponsorship with Godwin being provided with a new 21" RRA in special ivory livery fitted with AF hub, 27" sprint rims and tyres, Brooks B17 Flyer saddle and, at times, with the new GH8 Dynohub. He also rode a conventionally black-painted RRA at times.
In addition to running with the AF hub, Godwin also used the new medium-ratio four-speed FM hub starting in October. It was claimed that his average daily mileage increased by 33½ per cent from 156 to 200 using the four-speed hubs. It should be noted that Godwin used an AF hub from March-May on his Ley as well and went from a 155.7-mile average in February to 178.6 in March with the new gear.
Godwin's RRA was probably heavier than his Reynolds 531 Ley but it was the support that Raleigh provided in terms of a manager (Charlie Davey), pacers and limitless technical and parts assistance that made the difference. Raleigh's promotional assets thrust Godwin's efforts into the media spotlight as they hitherto had not been. He was the best advertisement Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer could wish for and posters, postcards and dealer displays flooded the cycle world. As late as 1955, Raleigh touted that a "prototype of the Super Lenton" (sic) was used in the effort.
http://www.ipernity.com/blog/286349/633421
[my bold]
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".
Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?
You can fit what Steve is doing into your "competitive" category: it is a race against time and it is a race against his own previous achievements, those of Tommy Godwin, and Kurt's recent year in the saddle. To achieve that, he will need to be "as effective as possible". That will take a different form to Kurt's method, of course.
Well I don't worry whether other people want to think that I suppose. But I don't see how long distance cycling , or even any cycling, is a good thing in and of itself - if it isn't enjoyable, and it isn't doing what it set out to achieve. Steve isn't doing it as effectively as possible otherwise he would be doing it in america. He could do it in an audax way on a raleigh, in america.
By 'noble' I mean they assume that because it's cycling, it *must* be good, even though it's neither enjoyable, getting from A to B, or achieving anything.
Do they think cycling gets you fit? Apart from intense, short hill reps/sprints, it doesn't. Audax cycling certainly doesn't get you fit.
I dont see "effectively enough" anywhere in the discussion so far.
I give up Jo. Let the googlers convince themselves Godwin was accompanied by a team of chariots with a special vacuum creating machine in front of him. If that is what they believe pacing means......
There were not reports of withdrawing pacing due to expense. It was entirely due to the arms race of miles that ensued between Bennett and Godwin. But they will know that having read through the archives and cross referencing quotes/facts won't they?
But, for once and for all, the pacers were:-
Rene Menzies, on a motorbike shouting at Bennett to go faster and do more miles.
Charley Davey in a car shouting at Godwin to go faster and do more miles.
Wow, I must confess to being one of the those who thought that Godwin was drafted.
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".
Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?
Because it has nothing to do with "noble" by the usual definitions. Rescuing someone from a fire is noble, riding a bike isn't. That doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with it, however unusual it might be.
I have never seen an advert that lied before 8)
I have never seen an advert that lied before 8)
Especially not before the Trades Descriptions Act...
Don Quixote was a noble night.
I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".
Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?
Because it has nothing to do with "noble" by the usual definitions. Rescuing someone from a fire is noble, riding a bike isn't. That doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with it, however unusual it might be.
The usual definitions of noble include many that I think apply to what Steve is doing. When BenT used the term earlier I thought of it in terms of excellence, extremes of endurance, rather in a moral way.
I digress.
Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself. I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.
"When he finishes this"?
I have no idea what "this" is. Every day that passes "this" is less and less like a realistic attempt at HAMR/Tommy Godwin's/Tarzan's record.
What is Steve trying to achieve?
it would be interesting to hear from Steve "my thoughts on my record attempts"...
"When he finishes this"?
I have no idea what "this" is. Every day that passes "this" is less and less like a realistic attempt at HAMR/Tommy Godwin's/Tarzan's record.
What is Steve trying to achieve?
he is riding the highest number of miles he can using his chosen strategy. this will help contributing towards other goals, if he has them, e.g. riding 1,000,000 miles in his lifetime. it would be interesting to hear from Steve "my thoughts on my record attempts"...
There were pacers. But these pacers were two men doing everything to make sure their guys rode more miles for more hours. This is different from a team of riders that the two men drafted behind. This is what people fail to understand.
Godwin's pacing is totally explainable. You like Google, look up Charlie Davey. The man was an animal on the bike and an unbelievable task master off it. He goaded Godwin on following him around in a car, sorting his food and lodgings and fixing his bikes. He would drive him to exhaustion whilst keeping an eye on his rival. THAT is pacing. And it was that which stopped after mutual agreement.
Everything had been prepared to receive the riders properly [recevoir dignement]: full meals, baths, hot showers, nothing was forgotten, and there were good beds to welcome our heroes, because there was no doubt among the excellent people of Angoulème that it was impossible to ride 127km on a bicycle without immediately needing several hours' rest. To the great stupefaction of the spectators, not one of the riders took advantage of what had been provided. The eventual winner, G.P. Mills, stopped for several moments at best. He had a plan: he let Holbein eat peacefully at the control because he knew that a real champion, Lewis Stroud, was waiting to show him the way out of town and that, with him as a precious, fast and durable pacer he could build up the lead he needed to win the race.[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux–Paris
Mills reached Tours after 215 miles and more than 12 hours on the road. He rested for five minutes, ate raw meat "and a specially prepared stimulant",[3] and set off an hour ahead of the other British riders. "By now," said Head, "the Frenchmen were hopelessly out of the running."
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?Its not clear from your post, so may I ask;
It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him. So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
"When he finishes this"?
I have no idea what "this" is. Every day that passes "this" is less and less like a realistic attempt at HAMR/Tommy Godwin's/Tarzan's record.
What is Steve trying to achieve?
he is riding the highest number of miles he can using his chosen strategy. this will help contributing towards other goals, if he has them, e.g. riding 1,000,000 miles in his lifetime. it would be interesting to hear from Steve "my thoughts on my record attempts"...
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?
It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him. So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?Its not clear from your post, so may I ask;
It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him. So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
are you a supporter? With how much cash?
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?Its not clear from your post, so may I ask;
It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him. So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
are you a supporter? With how much cash?
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?Its not clear from your post, so may I ask;
It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him. So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
are you a supporter? With how much cash?
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)
It and other threads go so much better with free speech, lack of insinuation as to worthyness in comment and constructive criticism.
Why don't you discuss this current record attempt as the thread title says, stop doing the old "passive aggressive" bollocks, eh? Now there's a good chap!
I will repeat, what is he doing, it is to beat the 76076 miles, is as mentioned ^^^^^^^ to beat Tommy's consecutive 365 day record? I need educating here as my memory fails me with old age, what is that record?
Also for the record I fully support Steve, I have followed his ups and downs from day 1, read every thread on here about it, followed faceache, been stunned by Jo's graphics and been amazed by a lot of mantra and pig headed view points on here from people who appear to be unable to accept what is happening to Steve re: "the record attempt".
I don't know Steve, I don't know;
What's driving him,
What his aims are,
Whether he's enjoying this,
Whether he thinks this is a rather nice long bike ride paid for by others?
If i met him I would have so many questions.
What I do know is:
I am in awe of what he has achieved.
I'm also afraid that what he is doing this now is an attempt to "save face", which from my view point he doesn't have to.
Well put, thankyou.gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)
It and other threads go so much better with free speech, lack of insinuation as to worthyness in comment and constructive criticism.
Why don't you discuss this current record attempt as the thread title says, stop doing the old "passive aggressive" bollocks, eh? Now there's a good chap!
I will repeat, what is he doing, it is to beat the 76076 miles, is as mentioned ^^^^^^^ to beat Tommy's consecutive 365 day record? I need educating here as my memory fails me with old age, what is that record?
Also for the record I fully support Steve, I have followed his ups and downs from day 1, read every thread on here about it, followed faceache, been stunned by Jo's graphics and been amazed by a lot of mantra and pig headed view points on here from people who appear to be unable to accept what is happening to Steve re: "the record attempt".
I don't know Steve, I don't know;
What's driving him,
What his aims are,
Whether he's enjoying this,
Whether he thinks this is a rather nice long bike ride paid for by others?
If i met him I would have so many questions.
What I do know is:
I am in awe of what he has achieved.
I'm also afraid that what he is doing this now is an attempt to "save face", which from my view point he doesn't have to.
Well I do know Steve, and I did contribute. I think that does give me more right to comment on what Steve does with the funds that somebody who hasn't contributed. I also found that your comment to which mattc objected could be construed as containing a rather unpleasant insinuation about Steve. I don't know you, and I don't know whether that was what you intended.
For you, perhaps, this thread is the opportunity to sound off about something. But there is somebody out there at this very moment trudging on in sub-zero temperatures whilst you give the world the benefit of your opinion from the comfort of your home. It is highly likely that that person reads (or read) these pages so it behoves you, as somebody who doesn't know Steve and hasnt put anything into this, to think very carefully about how you word your comments.
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)
It and other threads go so much better with free speech, lack of insinuation as to worthyness in comment and constructive criticism.
Why don't you discuss this current record attempt as the thread title says, stop doing the old "passive aggressive" bollocks, eh? Now there's a good chap!
I will repeat, what is he doing, it is to beat the 76076 miles, is as mentioned ^^^^^^^ to beat Tommy's consecutive 365 day record? I need educating here as my memory fails me with old age, what is that record?
Also for the record I fully support Steve, I have followed his ups and downs from day 1, read every thread on here about it, followed faceache, been stunned by Jo's graphics and been amazed by a lot of mantra and pig headed view points on here from people who appear to be unable to accept what is happening to Steve re: "the record attempt".
I don't know Steve, I don't know;
What's driving him,
What his aims are,
Whether he's enjoying this,
Whether he thinks this is a rather nice long bike ride paid for by others?
If i met him I would have so many questions.
What I do know is:
I am in awe of what he has achieved.
I'm also afraid that what he is doing this now is an attempt to "save face", which from my view point he doesn't have to.
Well I do know Steve, and I did contribute. I think that does give me more right to comment on what Steve does with the funds that somebody who hasn't contributed. I also found that your comment to which mattc objected could be construed as containing a rather unpleasant insinuation about Steve. I don't know you, and I don't know whether that was what you intended.
For you, perhaps, this thread is the opportunity to sound off about something. But there is somebody out there at this very moment trudging on in sub-zero temperatures whilst you give the world the benefit of your opinion from the comfort of your home. It is highly likely that that person reads (or read) these pages so it behoves you, as somebody who doesn't know Steve and hasnt put anything into this, to think very carefully about how you word your comments.
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.
Some people don't like to think. Such is life.
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.
Yeah, mattH is a runt!! Kill him with sticks!I see that the bullies are back in the playground.
Indeed - you need to ask MattH to stop posting. He's been chief bully and instigator of all nastiness on these threads for the past year. If you don't believe me then I suggest you review the two threads and see where the unpleasantness starts and who is responsible.
Or perhaps you will make an exception for him because his views concur with yours?
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.
Indeed - you need to ask MattH to stop posting. He's been chief bully and instigator of all nastiness on these threads for the past year. If you don't believe me then I suggest you review the two threads and see where the unpleasantness starts and who is responsible.
Or perhaps you will make an exception for him because his views concur with yours?
Personally I don't think that I will post in here again, rather leave it to the nasty crew.
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.
Indeed - you need to ask MattH to stop posting. He's been chief bully and instigator of all nastiness on these threads for the past year. If you don't believe me then I suggest you review the two threads and see where the unpleasantness starts and who is responsible.
Or perhaps you will make an exception for him because his views concur with yours?
I think that's a bit uncalled for, PB whilst not agreeing with other opinions, to me has respected the right of others to disagree.
Others have gone down the route of I know Steve better than you, or if you're not funding you can't have a view
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?
Does anyone know what Bruce is carrying with him...I can see he mentions wrecked tyres...anyone know if he or a fellow rider is carrying spares ect or if he has a replacement bike available at short notice?
193 miles yesterday and Steve mentioned something about some busted tri bars.
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?
Plus one.
It would be nice to have more pleasant postings and refrain from quite a lot of bitterness to each other. If all that surplus energy were directed more towards Steve's goal I think this forum would be all the better! The other thread was locked by the LOCKERARATOR (I mean Moderator) and this one be could suffer the same fate. So fellow cyclists more kindliness and respect for the views of others 'Have a nice day '!
193 miles yesterday and Steve mentioned something about some busted tri bars.
That was the day before. The Strava upload for yesterday hasn't been uploaded yet, the rides appear a day later than they should as they usually contain a trackpoint past midnight so they are dated according to the latest date in the file.
Yesterday (15th Jan) he rode from Tadcaster to York and down to King's Lynn. No idea of the proper mileage yet.
I'd have thought he would have uploaded his ride befre hand.
A reminder:My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.
ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
just leave it out...
Back to Steve.
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?
Plus one.
It would be nice to have more pleasant postings and refrain from quite a lot of bitterness to each other. If all that surplus energy were directed more towards Steve's goal I think this forum would be all the better! The other thread was locked by the LOCKERARATOR (I mean Moderator) and this one be could suffer the same fate. So fellow cyclists more kindliness and respect for the views of others 'Have a nice day '!
I would not mind if this thread was locked TBH. You have the views of various people, there's nothing more really to add until a couple of weeks time when Steve's team said themselves that they'll review the attempt at the end of the month.
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?
Plus one.
It would be nice to have more pleasant postings and refrain from quite a lot of bitterness to each other. If all that surplus energy were directed more towards Steve's goal I think this forum would be all the better! The other thread was locked by the LOCKERARATOR (I mean Moderator) and this one be could suffer the same fate. So fellow cyclists more kindliness and respect for the views of others 'Have a nice day '!
I would not mind if this thread was locked TBH. You have the views of various people, there's nothing more really to add until a couple of weeks time when Steve's team said themselves that they'll review the attempt at the end of the month.
So as far as we know - Bruce is getting some drafting help on the road from some pretty serious riders...but other than he is doing everything himself?
That makes what he is doing pretty damn impressive if so ...although I do wonder what happens when kit suffers a critical failure? I guess he has quite a bit of time spare in his day with how quick he gets the miles in!
The record is within reach if he can cycle with a moving time of 12h, that will allow him enough sleep to avoid burn out and have enough time to eat and stop at traffic lights. This needs a moving speed of close to 18mph and will require an increase in power output of about 50%.
This can be done but is very hard and Steve will have to increase the amount he eats by about 25%, which will take more time. He started at 9:41 today so at his current speed he will have to be going until midnight again to do 200 miles.
The schedule http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation (http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation) shows May as been the highest planned daily mileage at 230 miles a day. This will require a moving speed of over 19mph.
As for January up to the 11th he averaged 187 miles a day and is about 149 miles behind his latest plan and about 13 miles a day down. To catch this up he needs 210 miles a day between now and the end of January.
Speeding up is harder than riding more hours, Steve is riding more hours and this makes speeding up harder. It looks like the attempt will fail, but I want Steve to do it and a supporter. Some things will have to change and the first one is an attempt to speed up. I see no sign of this.
BB
I can confirm that Steve is riding with a broken tri-bar; just means the left one is shorter than the right :D.
The bike's drive train is also looking in dire need of some TLC. Several days of riding on wet (and now salted) roads is taking its toll. I presume he'll return to base soon to get all this sorted.
Weather looks calmer, but chilly, for the next 48 hours or so. All things being equal (which they're not), he needs to put in some big days this weekend.
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out? If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?My thoughts - he could get some bike fettling by some soul in MK. This is just adding more risk without apparent payback. If he wants to stay away and get a full cooked breakfast he need not stay at home. There are a number of Premier Inns close to MK. Also if the weather deteriorates he will be on known roads and could just go up and down part of the A5 that will be one of the better gritted roads in the area. Not fun but we are talking about function.
I can confirm that Steve is riding with a broken tri-bar; just means the left one is shorter than the right :D.
Steves team published a revised plan and schedule for the Aug-Aug attempt earlier this month. It was declared that a reassessment would occur after a month.
(We dont know the criteria that will guide this review, and we dont know if this publication was due to social media pressure).
So I cant see the point of making any demands on Steve or team in the middle of January. Let them get on with it.
Currently opinions vary on how likely success is at this stage. But as PB says, how can anyone caterogically condemn the optimists? Did anyone here make a concrete statement, back in January, of what run-rate makes the attempt unfeasible? If they did, and they've stuck to that, they will earn some respect from me.
In the meantime, the figures are there for everyone to read, supporters, sponsors, donors, everyone; if raleigh or PB still want to support Steve, who has the rihjt to stop them?
If Joe Bloggs wants to stop donating, fair enough; but please dont demand that others fall in line.
Did anyone here make a concrete statement, back in January, of what run-rate makes the attempt unfeasible?
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out? If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out? If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?
To be fair, although we had 5 hours "contact", of that, he was asleep for 4.5 hours, and eating for 20 minutes, so there wasn't much time for talking :D.
He spends a great deal of time weighing pros and cons of different strategies. We talked about the perceived efficacy of vehicle transfers (he'll put up with compromised sleep if the tailwind the following day is at least 15mph) and why he considered Thursday night the best night (it was also the best night for me, so it just kinda worked).
I asked him about going to the South of France, but he was already asleep ;D.
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out? If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?My thoughts - he could get some bike fettling by some soul in MK. ...
Has there been any word on the effectiveness of Steve’s plan to keep his HR down? I know he used this in his first months on the road, but is he still deliberately avoiding faster HR? Or did it serve its purpose in those early stages?
Has there been any word on the effectiveness of Steve’s plan to keep his HR down? I know he used this in his first months on the road, but is he still deliberately avoiding faster HR? Or did it serve its purpose in those early stages?
Last time I brought this up, the man himself came along shortly afterwards and said he wasn't riding to a heartrate. Presumably he's been on the bike for long enough that he knows what level of effort he can maintain.
Yep, Jan 2015.Did anyone here make a concrete statement, back in January, of what run-rate makes the attempt unfeasible?
I said a while ago that any schedule that requires Steve to average 220+ miles per day till the end to take the record is beyond his reach. Or did you mean January 2015?
<SNIP> in case we're still having this discussion in June! )
Whilst there remains a possibility, I feel that Steve deserves support and encouragement for his efforts.
A reminder:My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.
ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
just leave it out...
Back to Steve.
...
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.A reminder:My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.
ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
just leave it out...
Back to Steve.
...
Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.
Anyway...
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.A reminder:My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.
ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
just leave it out...
Back to Steve.
...
Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.
Anyway...
It's well known that he dips in and reads threads from time to time.
Whilst there remains a possibility, I feel that Steve deserves support and encouragement for his efforts.
But he's getting good consistent support and always has done right from the outset.
Financially he's in a sound position, but more importantly he is getting the hands on home-support in MK - and it's unselfish, generous, loyal support carried out by people that have their own lives to run at the same time, without which Steve goes nowhere fast. That's the real essential, necessary support. And it goes largely unacknowledged on here as well. Kurt would have been nothing without Alicia and the van and Steve likewise.
As for encouragement, I have a bit more of a problem with that. Henceforth, it doesn't sit easy with me to encourage him further into prolonged periods of extreme physical exertion, and make no mistake, they will be extreme states if he is going to get anywhere near the target he desires. Sorry, but I'm just not comfortable encouraging him into that, not now, not at this stage.
Matt, nothing that's said here - no matter how negative on the chances of Steve's success - is an attack on Steve. It's a comment on what he's doing, which is a public, and publicly-funded, enterprise. It is therefore open for comment, and there's no assumption that any comment should be positive. No-one on here has expressed any antipathy toward Steve himself. They are as entitled as anyone to express their thoughts on the likelihood of success. It really isn't for you to assume offence on Steve's behalf if those thoughts are not optimistic."attacks on Steve"? That seems a bit of a straw man - or at least putting words in my mouth. Odd.
To be honest, several of today's posts feel like attempts to shut me up
So am I missing something here or is your point and that of many posters here that Steve should stop now simply because you all believe that it's not in his best interests to try?
It's a 365 day attempt requiring Steve, of which he was fully aware at the outset, to ride on through the worst of winter as well as the best of summer. His schedule requires it, to get anywhere near the record requires it, to simply complete the challenge whether ultimately successful or otherwise requires it. Didn't you all think that this would be the case? I'm pretty certain that Steve as a prolific mile eater before this challenge started had a pretty good idea of what might lay ahead of him and he's attacking it with commendable commitment and tenacity.
The very fact that you and others think that it's too tough out there is exactly why he deserves support, encourangement and ultimately, some bloody respect.
The very fact that you and others think that it's too tough out there is exactly why he deserves support, encourangement and ultimately, some bloody respect.
The very fact that you and others think that it's too tough out there is exactly why he deserves support, encourangement and ultimately, some bloody respect.
I don't think 'it's too tough out there'. If he was bashing out 200 miles day after day in it, I would, awe-struck, tell him to carry on. I'd probably be working much harder to help, too, with both practical and cheerleading support.
I think trying to do what he's doing, here and now, is doomed to failure, and for his long (and short!) term health, he should stop this attempt.
It would appear from his actions that his thoughts on it are that this is the chance he's got, and he has to go for it here & now. As he's the one riding, that's ultimately his choice, but in exactly the same way I think it's stupid to (for example) ride The Dean in snow, I think it's shortsighted to ride ever decreasing ever slowing daily distances in deteriorating weather for a record you aren't going to break.
If we've learnt anything over the last 13 months, it must surely include:
- Steve is every bit as hardcore as we thought
- Kurt is hardier than we thought
- Full time mobile support makes it a lot easier
- Riding further is easier if you ride faster
- Warm weather and riding companions can help
- There are a finite number of hours in the day and even the mighty teethgrinder needs sleep
"attacks on Steve"? That seems a bit of a straw man...
Anyway,...
Its clear that several other members ...
(To be honest, ...
Matt, nothing that's said here - no matter how negative on the chances of Steve's success - is an attack on Steve. It's a comment on what he's doing, which is a public, and publicly-funded, enterprise. It is therefore open for comment, and there's no assumption that any comment should be positive. No-one on here has expressed any antipathy toward Steve himself. They are as entitled as anyone to express their thoughts on the likelihood of success. It really isn't for you to assume offence on Steve's behalf if those thoughts are not optimistic."attacks on Steve"? That seems a bit of a straw man - or at least putting words in my mouth. Odd.
Anyway, i feel free to post my views, and sometimes my views/thoughts relate to daft comments already made here (and some of those comments are indeed critical of Steve).
Its clear that several other members - whose views I have mostly found quite sound in the past - think along similar lines to me (on this topic, anyway!). So I'm clearly not some deranged fantasist.
(To be honest, several of today's posts feel like attempts to shut me up. We can't have that in this Temple to Free Speech, can we? :P )
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.A reminder:My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.
ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
just leave it out...
Back to Steve.
...
Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.
Anyway...
It's well known that he dips in and reads threads from time to time.
No shit Sherlock :)To be honest, several of today's posts feel like attempts to shut me up
Matt, this thread. It's not about you.
Trust me.
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.A reminder:My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.
ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
just leave it out...
Back to Steve.
...
Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.
Anyway...
It's well known that he dips in and reads threads from time to time.
A 16.1mph average by Steve yesterday, very good going in these conditions. Keep it up fella!Does Strava just list moving average?
A 16.1mph average by Steve yesterday, very good going in these conditions. Keep it up fella!Does Strava just list moving average?
And does the IvanScience give overall average e.g. about 13mph for yesterday shown here:
http://www.soretween.altervista.org/TeethGrinder/tg381.jpg
(I rarely look at Strava. One reason is that whenever I look at the 1YTT site it is missing several of the last week's Strava days. )
I don't believe that Ham, there are several on here that continue to be able to support Steve.
I don't think there's any "cut off". There's a clear recent (within the last week) example of a yacf-er helping Steve with a lift (Lowestoft to Tadcaster) despite the implied anismosity.
You make it sound like all of yacf has been cut off from helping.
Hasn't Steve said he doesn't want to be paced by groups, due to the additional risks it involves? I'd imagine this is doubly so in periods of shitty weather.
According to Strava and the extended stats plugin...I have looked at Strava (I am not a premium member) and the tracking and the average says 20.9 km/h which is 13mph - where do these faster speeds come from. The evidence I can see does not support these speeds.
Moving average was 28.4km/h (17.6mph)
Overall average was 25.9km/h (16.1mph)
He was moving for 90.0% of the time.
Is there anywhere published roles and responsibilities of Steve's support team? Haven't found such on OYTT site.
Well, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the antagonism from team Steve to yacf is derived from the antipathy of Hoppo, the team leader ...
I have looked at Strava (I am not a premium member) and the tracking and the average says 20.9 km/h which is 13mph - where do these faster speeds come from. The evidence I can see does not support these speeds.
Well, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the antagonism from team Steve to yacf is derived from the antipathy of Hoppo, the team leader ...
Why?
I don't get it. Maybe it is a self fulfilling prophesy, there do seem to be some negative remarks about Hoppo now - but that is only because of a lack of communication.
What is the reasoning for a long distance UK cyclist staying away from this site? Was he one of those affiliated to "he who must not be named" from ACF?
I have looked at Strava (I am not a premium member) and the tracking and the average says 20.9 km/h which is 13mph - where do these faster speeds come from. The evidence I can see does not support these speeds.
The tracking under-reads distance (because it is guessing the route between the infrequent live tracking points) and only measures elapsed time.
As an example, here's the 16th Jan on the tracker: http://www.soretween.altervista.org/TeethGrinder/tg381.jpg (286km at 20.9kph)
286km/20.9kph = 13h 41m
This fits with the tracker's first and last live tracking points of 9:39:05 to 23:21:05 (13h 42m).
And here's the GPX file that was uploaded to Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/472063940 (322.2km with moving time of 12:27:50, elapsed time of 13:49:02).
322.2 / 13h49m02 = 23.32kph (based on elapsed time)
322.2 / 12h27m50 = 25.85kph (based on moving time)
No idea how Strava is managing to pull 28.4kph out of those figures.
What is the reasoning for a long distance UK cyclist staying away from this site? Was he one of those affiliated to "he who must not be named" from ACF?Hoppo isn't an audaxer, he's a TTer who specialises in longer distance events.
Kurt has been an' gon' an' dun itOk, is Steve on his second or third restart?
Steve is still doin' it. Maybe accordin' to sum
Kajsa is doin' something different
Bruce don' giv a stuff an is doin it too
Miles gave up
there you go
His first restart.
164 days ago :thumbsup:Say no more
Kurt has been an' gon' an' dun it
Steve is still doin' it. Maybe accordin' to sum
Kajsa is doin' something different
Bruce don' giv a stuff an is doin it too
Miles gave up
there you go
Well, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the antagonism from team Steve to yacf is derived from the antipathy of Hoppo, the team leader ...
Why?
I don't get it. Maybe it is a self fulfilling prophesy, there do seem to be some negative remarks about Hoppo now - but that is only because of a lack of communication.
What is the reasoning for a long distance UK cyclist staying away from this site? Was he one of those affiliated to "he who must not be named" from ACF?
I doubt it is that. I had assumed that it stemmed from his encounter with the unique charm of MattC when they had a disagreement over lights on the 24hour TT a few years ago. But I think he doesn't like forums in general as he also made a bit of a fool of himself on the TT forum (by complaining about results for a 12-hour not being out immediately) and now avoids that too.
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.Lower profile?! :o I would have thought that a bit more promotion/information/transparency/PR would have been a lot better, and reduced the level of rumblings.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
It's the promotional aspect that Steve has benefited from, Idai has been instrumental in that as well. I would have been perfectly happy with a lower profile approach, more akin to the level of publicity that the 24 gets, there's been a bit of an expectation/reality mismatch for me.
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
People misunderstand Hoppo by thinking he's a top level long distance time triallist! He isn't, not in the same league as the people you mention.
On the odd time he's entered, he has come in, perhaps, the top 20 at the nationals, not been threatening the podium.
That's still a decent achievement and he's a gutsy rider (and I was really impressed by his ride in a 100 a week after a 12 hour last year when he went under 4 hours while I was struggling badly attempting the same), but he's not in, or close to, the top class.
I suspect ESL meant lower profile with regards to mainstream media and higher profile with regards to supporters.
What are you wanting from any filming? Is it to provide publicity, or to give some feedback to the donors?
I'm concerned mainly with recording events from the standpoint of someone actively involved in them. So my focus accepts that people can ride 200 miles a day, for a number of days. What's interesting is how that effort can be sustained, both physically and emotionally.
That interest also extends to the way support is provided. The support on YACF seems to be independent of any publicity considerations. Is it possible for this record to be achieved within a sealed world, like the Andy Wilkinson record? With only those who really care about it being interested.
We got a lot of satisfaction in being there to film that record. I don't feel the need to show Wilko's 'journey' to that record, because we know what's involved, and it's for an audience that understands.
If you want to produce a recruitment video for Audax, or to satisfy sponsors, then the focus changes. And it's more up to you to give me a brief.
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
People misunderstand Hoppo by thinking he's a top level long distance time triallist! He isn't, not in the same league as the people you mention.
On the odd time he's entered, he has come in, perhaps, the top 20 at the nationals, not been threatening the podium.
That's still a decent achievement and he's a gutsy rider (and I was really impressed by his ride in a 100 a week after a 12 hour last year when he went under 4 hours while I was struggling badly attempting the same), but he's not in, or close to, the top class.
Hmm, depends on what is relative?
In terms of distance for sure, there are people that have covered more than him on a bike given a set time limit. But the man is tenacious, that there can be no doubt, after all he has done RAAM which does deserve respect imo.
But the man is tenacious, that there can be no doubt, after all he has done RAAM which does deserve respect imo.
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.Lower profile?! :o I would have thought that a bit more promotion/information/transparency/PR would have been a lot better, and reduced the level of rumblings.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
It's the promotional aspect that Steve has benefited from, Idai has been instrumental in that as well. I would have been perfectly happy with a lower profile approach, more akin to the level of publicity that the 24 gets, there's been a bit of an expectation/reality mismatch for me.
Hoppo may be a great rider
Seems the year record challenge has gone to hell in a handbasket. Steve's gutsy attempt is now rewarded with parts of his fan base trashing his methods, crew, and overall chances. Facts are he is still in the game and positioned to make one heck of a comeback. Meanwhile, the Kiwi figures he can just tell us how many miles he rode 365 days from January 1 and that is good enough. Turmoil and bickering has dwarfed the Challenge itself. Gone is the time one can track a riders progress or perhaps catch a video update on the daily rigors of the ride. Apparently, Kurt has set the bar for more than just the number of miles to ride.
Hoppo may be a great rider, but that's really irrelevant in the context of being, if this is indeed what he is, Steve's 'team manager'. There's no requirement for a band's manager to be able to sing or play, or a bank's manager to be able to count (ooh, ouch!), or an airline's manager to be able to fly. I'm not sure what responsibilities he has taken on on Steve's behalf, but it sure doesn't include riding a bike! So discussions of his cycling ability are a total red herring.Agreed.
Seems the year record challenge has gone to hell in a handbasket. Steve's gutsy attempt is now rewarded with parts of his fan base trashing his methods, crew, and overall chances. Facts are he is still in the game and positioned to make one heck of a comeback. Meanwhile, the Kiwi figures he can just tell us how many miles he rode 365 days from January 1 and that is good enough. Turmoil and bickering has dwarfed the Challenge itself. Gone is the time one can track a riders progress or perhaps catch a video update on the daily rigors of the ride. Apparently, Kurt has set the bar for more than just the number of miles to ride.
Hoppo may be a great rider, but that's really irrelevant in the context of being, if this is indeed what he is, Steve's 'team manager'. There's no requirement for a band's manager to be able to sing or play, or a bank's manager to be able to count (ooh, ouch!), or an airline's manager to be able to fly. I'm not sure what responsibilities he has taken on on Steve's behalf, but it sure doesn't include riding a bike! So discussions of his cycling ability are a total red herring.Agreed.
Except that it was probably Steve's high opinion of his cycling palmares that got him the job.
Up to this point I haven't been interested in the women's record but with the current circus atmosphere surrounding the men's challenge maybe it's time to check it out. Some fresh air will be nice. Thanks for the links.
Not at all. Have you not seen Kajsa's video clips on Facebook? She's got a live feed too :thumbsup:.
Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?
Hoppo may be a great rider, but that's really irrelevant in the context of being, if this is indeed what he is, Steve's 'team manager'. There's no requirement for a band's manager to be able to sing or play, or a bank's manager to be able to count (ooh, ouch!), or an airline's manager to be able to fly. I'm not sure what responsibilities he has taken on on Steve's behalf, but it sure doesn't include riding a bike! So discussions of his cycling ability are a total red herring.Agreed.
Except that it was probably Steve's high opinion of his cycling palmares that got him the job.
Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?
Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?
I stopped off at Hewitts in Leyland on the way back from the shops, and had a short word with Gethin Butler. He wasn't impressed that the rules allow drafting, and he felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.
I'm puzzled why there still is no data on the UMCA site for Steve for Jan 12. I thought data had to be upoaded there within 24 hours. Or have I missed something blindingly obvious...asn't that the day he broke his wheel, so continued late into the night. Without Jo's help I am slighly losing track of what he achieved this week From Strava it looks like
felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.That means riding at 20mph :o
felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.That means riding at 20mph :o
The lack of recovery time Steve has will catch up with him sometime, I think.
On the UMCA site it has:
Day Date Miles
156 2016-01-10 196
157 2016-01-11 188.7
158
159 2016-01-13 225.8
160
161 2016-01-15 336.6
162 2016-01-16 200.2
Day 161 clearly looks like mileage for two days, so that would account for day 160 being blank.
If Freya's right that the missing day is 130 miles then Steve's averaged 182.5 miles per day in the last 7 days.
felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.That means riding at 20mph :o
The lack of recovery time Steve has will catch up with him sometime, I think.
August 7th 2016?
160? How do you get that? There is a zero entry in your list which might be why. That should be 131 miles I think. I believe 11th-17th should be about 180mpd average.
UMCA values seem to differ from Strava. Privacy zones or something else?
Strava now has:-
M 11th 188.7
T 12th 130.9
W13th 225.7
T 14th 180.7 (appears on Friday due to going just past midnight)
F 15th 193.9
S 16th 200.2
S 17th 180.8
M 18th 186.0 (appears on Tuesday due to going just past midnight)
That's 185.9 miles per day over those 8 days, including 4 hours lost to a broken bike, and he's already got another 22 miles in the bank as they were done last night before going to sleep in York (yesterday's track ends at midnight near Snaith). Include those and it's ~188.6 miles per day.
The last 4 days (including the extra 22 miles) is 195.7 miles per day.
Encouraging.
YEAR'S MILEAGE RECORD.
Bennett-Godwin Duel Develops
Organised Pacing.
Enlightening' news concerning the
astounding daily runs of Bernard Ben
nett and Tommy Godwin both of
whom are attacking Australian Ossic
Nicholson's world's mileage record of
62,'657.6 miles, is contained in a special
report * extracted from "English
Cycling" and forwarded, by the Coven
try ?.Office of Bruce Small Pty. Ltd.
"Both men have utilized pace, either
where it could be arranged or on
roads known to have a fair amount of
lorry traffic. Last week in seven days
(July 7th to 14th) Godwin covered
1,969 miles, making his total 38,47£
miles. Charles Davey, the well known
trainer-manager, is now'in charge of
Godwin and promises to intensify his
.riding programme .with regular car
assistance; Bennett covex*ed lt668 mile?
riri six days to July 13th and his total
to that' date is 37,531 miles. He is ad
vised and - trained by Rene Menzies
(who attacked the record .in 1937).
Some days Menzies accompanies him
on a bicycle and on others gives him
food from a motor cycle and side-car."
This explains the high figures ob
tained with assistance which was not.
availably to the Australian during hisFix this text
marvellous efforts. At "the same time,
however it gives complete confidence
that Nicholson, granted similar organ
ised pacing -and help with organised
feeding, will pass whatever figures the
Englishmen aggregate, as we . now
have "a feasible explanation of the
higher daily average of the two con
tenders.
Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.
Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.
There's an interesting insight into the profile of distance cycling in Australia in the 1930s in the story of Valda Unthank, who seems to have a claim on the ladies week record.
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/t/560f1d3ee4b0eb177e2d7b85/1443833664196/valda-unthank-womens-cycling1.jpg?format=750w)
There's a great picture of her eating in a gas showroom window during her week long ride.
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/t/560f1d1ae4b0eb177e2d7572/1443833537553/ossie-nicholson-cycling.jpg?format=750w)
http://www.veloaficionado.com/blog/australias-long-distance-record-breaking-cyclist-valda-unthank
The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?
1938 was the year Holland attempted professional place-to-place records on the road, at that time the only way that a professional rider could publicise his sponsor, there still being no massed racing on the road and professionals not being allowed to ride amateur time-trials. In June, riding for Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer, Holland broke his first Road Records Association (RRA) record, knocking 12 minutes off the time of his rival, Frank Southall, for Liverpool to Edinburgh, completing the 210 miles in 10 hours.
In August he narrowly beat the record for Land's End to London but it was not accepted as a new RRA record because it did not improve on the old one by more than a minute. Two months later, he completed the 287 miles from Land's End to London again, racing at 21 mph through hours of rain and suffering four punctures but, knocking 25 minutes off the record.
Holland's professional career ended when Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. He was called up to join the Royal Corps of Signals.
Actually it was Kemsley and co PTY who were the Australian SA importers. Bruce Small handled the rival Cyclo gears, so a competitor.
The last 4 days (including the extra 22 miles) is 195.7 miles per day.
Encouraging.
As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here :)
To be honest, if I were in Godwin's shoes, I would have taken advantage of every opportunity to maximise my mileage and that would have included spending long periods of time sitting behind lorries. Just because it is not documented by Godwin and Davey does not mean that it wasn't done - in fact, in the light of accusations from Bruce Small et al., they'd be daft to explicitly mention it.
As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here :)
I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest. You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring.I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that in an age when it was possible to get opium over the counter, perhaps Tommy the vegetarian wouldn't have passed a urine test.
I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest. You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring.I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that in an age when it was possible to get opium over the counter, perhaps Tommy the vegetarian wouldn't have passed a urine test.
Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)
Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.
Not personally but I bought his Raleigh book and read it cover to cover. I was trying to track down another zombie factoid that Godwin went to Ireland. Found nothing at all in the Raleigh Archives after days of hunting, only one tiny mention in bicycle magazine that I do not trust.
It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.
I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.
It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.
I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.
Yes. Not much else to be said really.
The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?
I suggest you research Charles Holland, Bert James and Sid Ferris. Holland's call-up in September 1939 coincides with the withdrawal of pacing.Quote1938 was the year Holland attempted professional place-to-place records on the road, at that time the only way that a professional rider could publicise his sponsor, there still being no massed racing on the road and professionals not being allowed to ride amateur time-trials. In June, riding for Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer, Holland broke his first Road Records Association (RRA) record, knocking 12 minutes off the time of his rival, Frank Southall, for Liverpool to Edinburgh, completing the 210 miles in 10 hours.
In August he narrowly beat the record for Land's End to London but it was not accepted as a new RRA record because it did not improve on the old one by more than a minute. Two months later, he completed the 287 miles from Land's End to London again, racing at 21 mph through hours of rain and suffering four punctures but, knocking 25 minutes off the record.
Holland's professional career ended when Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. He was called up to join the Royal Corps of Signals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)#Road_records
I cannot stress enough the importance of BALANCE when looking into this history. Random snippets of internet do not tell the full story. Reading across the entire press of the time, the Raleigh archives and accounts(searching for payments) and family interviews give a broader view of what actually happened. This is what it took me years to get to the bottom of it, not ten minutes of internet search and a bit of cut and paste. The real story shows two riders fighting each other for miles using everything from sleep deprivation to drafting to get them, both goaded on by their relative team managers. THIS is what pacing means. The final judgement on ending it specifically mentioned the team managers retreating.
The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?
Secondly, I find it really striking how little we know what really happened in those crucial summer months of 1939 despite all that hard work. If there really was no team of paid cyclists or organised motor vehicles used to break the wind for Tommy Godwin (that's how I would intuitively understand the concept of "pacing"), the big question really is how he managed to crank out these incredible miles.
The testament I do have from his friends tells of him being "bolloxed" most days,
Now, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.While I defer to your greater knowledge & research (enjoyed the book as well) Couldn't that imply him following something for periods and then not having assistance. (For example making use of a passing vehicle or having a rider whose stamina is used up hence the need for a rest) I'm not saying that this is the case, but as you say, what actually happened has to be inferred from limited data.
QuoteNow, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.While I defer to your greater knowledge & research (enjoyed the book as well) Couldn't that imply him following something for periods and then not having assistance. (For example making use of a passing vehicle or having a rider whose stamina is used up hence the need for a rest) I'm not saying that this is the case, but as you say, what actually happened has to be inferred from limited data.
I think a likely scenario is that those riders engaged in testing bikes and components rode between cafes about 50miles part, having a tea break at regular intervals. Godwin may have ridden with them, and either had a break, or ridden on to post a card, coming back to rejoin the other rider, or riders, and so forth.
It would be interesting to see how that would fit with the data. The test riders might have worked an ordinary factory shift, apart from set-piece days.
But it's no longer relevant to the current attempt, it being too late for Steve to do something like that.
The RRA/Sid Ferris Era ended in early 1939 with his testing of the new Sturmey-Archer four-speed AF hub (essentially an AR hub with an extra low gear for mass start racing and hills) over some 3,000 miles covered weekly trial runs between London and Nottingham by Ferris prior to its introduction in April. By then, Raleigh boasted it held nine of Britain's 15 road records totally over 3,500 miles of the 4,650 total.http://www.ipernity.com/doc/286349/15639925
I wonder now given (a) some more lost miles from Steve and (b) shenanigans with Bruce's validation, that that argument no longer applies.
Guinness.
Guinness.
1+n?
Worth remembering no one owns the record.
It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.
If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.
Worth remembering no one owns the record.- it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.
It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.
If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.
Worth remembering no one owns the record.- it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.
It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.
If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.
I think the only obligation is to ensure the record is verified in a way observers can trust.
My earlier remark about Tommy not using trackers was slightly misinterpreted, but he managed to set an accepted record without computerised trackers or the UMCA.
It's a matter for you if the UMCA is the only verification you trust, but I believe there are other ways to set a trusted record.
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.
But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.
But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?
you are quite right and I apologise.
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.
But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?
Grossly unfair on those 16-year olds, or any teenager for that matter, who through no fault of their own suffer from 'spots' that can have a massive effect on how they are viewed and their own self confidence.
A very unfortunate example IMO.
Drafting lorries was to reduce Cd .
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.
This is wrong as well.
Cd is a relative measure.
Blah blah blah....
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.
Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.
Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?
Arse. My previous reply was lost by an interweb failure so I'll, try again.
I'd hate to get into a technical discussion with you Kim 'cos I'd invariably lose but, AIUI, any moving object creates an area of low pressure directly behind it because it's moved the air out of the way. To take advantage you have to be in the middle of the moving object and very close to it.
My 1st sentence stands :).
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.
By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.
If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.
When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.
By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.
If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.
When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.
By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.
If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.
When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.
No! Cd is constant for a body. If you change your posture, you are, in aerodynamic terms, changing the body. Drafting only reduces v (and density very slightly).
We may need another thread... (there's probably one already).
Agreed. Not for this thread.
I was away atAiden'sAidan's new thread.
Agreed. Not for this thread.
I was away atAiden'sAidan's new thread.
FTFY :thumbsup:
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.
By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.
If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.
When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.
No! Cd is constant for a body. If you change your posture, you are, in aerodynamic terms, changing the body. Drafting only reduces v (and density very slightly).
We may need another thread... (there's probably one already).
Agreed. Not for this thread.
I was away at Aidan's new thread.
Sad news.
To bicker about aerodynamics is not fitting here.
Appologies.
Sad news on the decision for the attempt being pulled.+1
I can't imagine that was easy.
My thoughts are with Steve and the Team.
H
Some of the money left from donations should be spend on a decent sports physio to help put Steve back together. Maybe a psych too - he's not lived in the real world for over a year now.
not lived in the real world for over a year now.that could be said about a lot of us, Chris.
...maybe a cycling holiday.
from now on the only source of info will be sent out as a newsletterQuite. And this info sent out, from the One Year Time Trial team, what subject might that be concerning then?
from now on the only source of info will be sent out as a newsletterQuite. And this info sent out, from the One Year Time Trial team, what subject might that be concerning then?
I have just closed a much-visited tab on my browser that has been sitting open for months. It was Steve's track. :'(possibly my second-most used app on my phone now deleted
The fact that he carried on when many kept telling him to stop was exactly the right thing to do(Apologies- feel free to move to the More Current Thoughts thread if necessary to keep this thread free for justifiably slapping Steve on the back and congratulating him on an amazing 55 weeks.)
Many would disagree with you on this front, Michael. If (heaven forbid) carrying on this last few weeks were to turn out to have had a detrimental effect on Steve's long-term health, would you still maintain this viewpoint?
Naturally I don't with any ill on Steve but he knew that he had to push himself to, and possibly beyond his limits on a regular basis to complete the challenge. Steve will have learned an awful lot and it would have been his choice to continue. Sometimes you learn a negative too but you need to learn that lesson. THe fact that Steve continued after the moped incident shows that Steve is tenacious and highly motivated and will push until he can push no more.
So, on balance I'd have to say yes, I would still consider that he did the right thing even if he ended up not getting the right result this time. Next time, which I sincerely hope there is to be, Steve will be even better, even stronger and even wiser.
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)
It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.
Am I a stick in the mud when I say I'm relieved that Steve has abandoned but seems remarkably well in mind and body considering?No.
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)
It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)
It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.
Fair enough. On the other hand, I would expect the crew chief and registered team leader to be personally present when matters of such significance are discussed and communicated.
Could have been worse Phil, I drove all the way there and my bit was lost as I talked to a camera that was off ;-)
Could have been worse Phil, I drove all the way there and my bit was lost as I talked to a camera that was off ;-)
Yes but we told you in the discussions, the video wasn't about you promoting your book ;D
I should also point out that nobody pushed me into stopping.
I was hugely reluctant to stop. Idai and I had a long discussion. I agreed with him that I should have a rest day after getting home at 3:30am.
I was in two minds but as I said to Idai, I knew it was the right thing to do, I just didn't want to admit it to myself.
I was going to go out before I decided to stop. I even told Hoppo I was going out, but never did.
I thought about what Idai said, that the team thought I should stop and that I agreed. I pretty well knew it a few days earlier to be honest.
Hoppo was more keen on me keeping going but would support whatever I decided. Hoppo and I think along very similar lines and I think we both have the never give up attitude.
But what really decided it for me was that I promised I would give my best. I couldn't see how I could give my best when I am not at my best or can see a way of becoming at my best.
Hoppo understood and true to his word, backed me up in my decision. I doubt it was easy for him either.
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)
It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.
Fair enough. On the other hand, I would expect the crew chief and registered team leader to be personally present when matters of such significance are discussed and communicated.
I can see they've all answered for themselves, but I have to say I think this is a bit unfair. Steve didn't pick the moment in advance; it came to a head Wednesday morning when Idai saw Steve was beyond just knackered. Volunteer team members can't just drop their jobs and families and come running. I'm sure it was all discussed on the phone beforehand. Thank goodness Idai was there, and persuaded Steve to consider knocking it on the head.
I'm sure there will be a long and detailed deconstruction of how the team worked and what might have been done differently in due course. I know we've not been backwards in volunteering our opinions, and I'm sure some of that will be in the mix if there's a next time. In the meantime, I think we should thank all the team, past and present, for supporting Steve - probably rather better than we gave them credit for.
I should also point out that nobody pushed me into stopping.
I was .......
I will accept it if she is your sister or a close cousin but nothing else.
I think it a great shame that my team never got the credit they deserved.
Whenever I read "What are Steve's team doing for him?" comments here, it reminded me of Monty Pythons', "Romans" sketch.
...
Mike, the host manager put a lot of effort into what he did and showed that he really cared about Steve and his attempt.
I'd like to give him a round of applause. He seems to be overlooked, shame really.
Yes yes but on a more important subject, I could not help but notice that woman holding your arm and being a little too familiar with you :hand:
H
Hoppo and I think along very similar lines and I think we both have the never give up attitude.Just an observation, the best teams complement each other and contain people who bring different views and ideas to a group. People with the same views tend to emphasise all aspects of behaviour good and bad. A team needs a balance of views and be able to view situations from different angles.
any male contenders on the horizon?