Can you run Campag inner brake cable through Shimano outers?

[Oxford_Guy]

Probably a stupid question, but would there be any problem running Campag inner brake cable through Shimano outers? Am converting my touring bike from using (worn out) Campag STI shifters to Shimano 9-spd Dura Ace 7700 bar-end shifters, but am thinking of possibly just gutting the Campag levers of the shifting parts and using them as just brake levers (as I like the flat hood platform they have). I will be using the decent grey Shimano Dura Ace gear cable that the bar end shifters came with, but as I have some spare Shimano brake cable from another project, with the same grey outers, was wondering if I could use the outers from that with the Campag inner brake cable I'll be using (has a different shape nipple on the end from Shimano cable, but otherwise looks very similar)? This way the brake and gear cable outers would match (terribly important, I know...)

[Kim]

Dunno about brake cable, but I've never had a problem with 1.1mm SRAM gear cable in Shimano gear cable outers (designed for 1.2mm presumably), or indeed - where precision isn't required for indexing - with running gear cable in brake cable outer.  I can't imagine the tolerances are tight enough to matter (otherwise cables would gunk up *really* easily) and expect it will work just fine.

[Karla]

Easy solutions:

1) Ditch the bar end shifter idea, return them to the manufacturer, just get some new Ergos but use the right Shimergo setup this time, rather than the wrong one you were using before.
2) If you're replacing them, FFS, just get some new outer cable! 
3) Gutted Campag shiffters plus bar ends just looks wrong.  Don't do it.  Please.

[grams]

You could just use Shimano inners - the end is slightly larger but I doubt it'll cause problems.

Alternatively just try the Campag inner and see how it works.

[Samuel D]

The nominal diameters of Shimano and Campagnolo brake cables are identical at 1.6 mm. The Campagnolo ones have a smaller head diameter by about 0.6 mm. Therefore the Shimano cable may jam in the Campagnolo brake lever unless you file down the head. The head is zinc so this is easy to do. The attraction is that Shimano cables are a good deal cheaper than Campagnolo ones.

My worry with your scheme is whether 5 mm Shimano housing will fit in the Campagnolo levers made for 4.9 mm housing. I guess they will or could be persuaded to but there’s a risk. I haven’t measured these housings to see if they match their specified diameters or differ in the right direction.

[Oxford_Guy]

The nominal diameters of Shimano and Campagnolo brake cables are identical at 1.6 mm. The Campagnolo ones have a smaller head diameter by about 0.6 mm. Therefore the Shimano cable may jam in the Campagnolo brake lever unless you file down the head. The head is zinc so this is easy to do. The attraction is that Shimano cables are a good deal cheaper than Campagnolo ones.

I do have some spare Campag inner brake cable, so that, at least, is not necessarily an issue

My worry with your scheme is whether 5 mm Shimano housing will fit in the Campagnolo levers made for 4.9 mm housing. I guess they will or could be persuaded to but there’s a risk. I haven’t measured these housings to see if they match their specified diameters or differ in the right direction.

Okay, thanks, that's useful to know, I hadn't thought about the outer housing size - might just try it anyway and see if it works.

[Oxford_Guy]

Easy solutions:

1) Ditch the bar end shifter idea, return them to the manufacturer, just get some new Ergos but use the right Shimergo setup this time, rather than the wrong one you were using before.

What's the "right" Shimergo setup then?

I never had much luck getting the "hubbub" method to work properly (when using 10-speed Campag Ergo shifters from 2006 and a 9-speed chain and Shimano XT rear mech - front shifting was fine, obviously, with the ratcheting on the left lever), nor even did various bike shops when I printed out the instructions and photos and showed them what was involved, when I needed to change gear cables. The rear would always be problematic on some parts of the cassette e.g. jumping two at once etc.

Also my current levers really are knackered, so would need to get new ones, and the older pre-Quick Shift/Ultrashift levers are not easily available anymore - the ones that don't have indexing on the front at all, just ratchet both ways. I'd understood that the later Campag levers index the front mech on the donwshifts, so can't guarantee compatibility with all (triple) front mechs? Or would Ultrashift Chrous and above not be a problem with an XT Triple mech?

I've heard that Campag 10 speed works with Shimano 8 speed, but I don't really want to go 8 speed.

What would be more interesting is that I think Post 2011  11 speed Campag Ultrashift shifters (which these days means just the Upper end models) will work with Shimano 9-speed - but I'm still concerned about the shifting on the front mech, or would this be fine with an XT triple front mech?

TBH though, I'm just a bit fed up with a finicky indexing and want something that just works and is reliable on week or longer tours - hence why I'm now willing to give bar end shifters a go...

2) If you're replacing them, FFS, just get some new outer cable! 
3) Gutted Campag shiffters plus bar ends just looks wrong.  Don't do it.  Please.

Why does it look wrong? Have seen plenty of touring bikes with bar ends and Tektro R200 or Cane Creeks, which look very similar to my Veloce shifters, and it doesn't look that odd e.g.

http://road.cc/content/news/110745-just-hewitt-cheviot-se





I'm open to the idea of using other brake levers, but not sure I like the shape of the hoods on the Shimano BL-R400 and thought that gutted Campag Ergos are likely still to be better quality than Tektro levers.
 

[andrew_s]

What's the "right" Shimergo setup then?

I never had much luck getting the "hubbub" method to work properly (when using 10-speed Campag Ergo shifters from 2006 and a 9-speed chain and Shimano XT rear mech - front shifting was fine, obviously, with the ratcheting on the left lever), nor even did various bike shops when I printed out the instructions and photos and showed them what was involved, when I needed to change gear cables. The rear would always be problematic on some parts of the cassette e.g. jumping two at once etc.

The "right" Shimergo setup is to use an 8 speed cassette, and clamp the cable normally.

I found that 9 speed Hubbub worked fine to start with, but the cable would slip off the shoulder of the turned round clamp plate and I'd end up persuading it to work, with some shifts needing the lever held over for the duration of the shift, or needing 2 down & 1 up.

I've largely shifted back to 8 speed now. The 8 speed Ultegra bar end shifters are better than the 9 speed Dura shifters too.

[Karla]

As above, the right shimergo setup is any one that means the shifters pull the right amount of cable to shift the derailleurs.  C10 to S8 works perfectly.  I'm led to believe that C11 to S9 also works well, though I haven't personally tried it and I know Campag changed their pull ratios in 2015 so I don't know whether you want pre- or post-2015.  Rerouting your cable hubbub-style is not going to be an accurate and repeatable process, so won't give you consistent results - as you've found.  Either go to 8 speeed, or bite the bullet and fit a groupset of parts that are designed to work with each other if you want more gears or just possibly buy some  C11 ergos but after further research to find out which ones you need.

[Oxford_Guy]

What's the "right" Shimergo setup then?

I never had much luck getting the "hubbub" method to work properly (when using 10-speed Campag Ergo shifters from 2006 and a 9-speed chain and Shimano XT rear mech - front shifting was fine, obviously, with the ratcheting on the left lever), nor even did various bike shops when I printed out the instructions and photos and showed them what was involved, when I needed to change gear cables. The rear would always be problematic on some parts of the cassette e.g. jumping two at once etc.

The "right" Shimergo setup is to use an 8 speed cassette, and clamp the cable normally.

I found that 9 speed Hubbub worked fine to start with, but the cable would slip off the shoulder of the turned round clamp plate and I'd end up persuading it to work, with some shifts needing the lever held over for the duration of the shift, or needing 2 down & 1 up.

I've largely shifted back to 8 speed now. The 8 speed Ultegra bar end shifters are better than the 9 speed Dura shifters too.

Can you still use the 9-speed Shimano XT rear derailleur with an 8 speed setup? Also, how does shifting on the front Mech work with modern Campag 10 speed shifters, I understood they're not full ratcheting both ways now, so what front mech can you use, and would it work with a 22/32/44 chainring setup (on a hollowtech II style BB)?

Would I need to change my front chain ring (currently a 9-speed SLX 22/32/44  I think) and front XT mech? Would I just need a new 8-speed cassette and chain or new chain rings and mechs too?

TBH if I was to go the Shimergo route again, would rather go 11 spd to 9 spd. but front mech compatibility still concerns me - what works?

One of the reasons I'm thinking of resorting to bar ends is front mech compatibility issues, especially as I'm not running "normal" road chain ring sizes - not a problem on the old style campag levers, of course

[Brucey]

I'm open to the idea of using other brake levers, but not sure I like the shape of the hoods on the Shimano BL-R400 and thought that gutted Campag Ergos are likely still to be better quality than Tektro levers.

have you not bought some BL-R400 levers? If so you may as well try them, you won't find out if you like them or not otherwise.

 The main benefit of these levers is that (unlike most other levers) they are designed in such a way as they are more likely to make the brakes work properly.

[BTW you may just need some new 'G' springs in the extant shifters, which would be a cheap fix.
Also re the shimergo setups; a little 'O' level metalwork will enable you to make a special washer that holds the cable in the right place to that a Hubbub style cable mount is a reliable option.  Note also that there are further (as yet largely undocumented) variations using 11s (road) shimano rear mechs and campag 10s shifters;  it is almost plug and play for 10s and a revised cable mount (the other way) may work for 9s too.]

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

I'm open to the idea of using other brake levers, but not sure I like the shape of the hoods on the Shimano BL-R400 and thought that gutted Campag Ergos are likely still to be better quality than Tektro levers.

have you not bought some BL-R400 levers? If so you may as well try them, you won't find out if you like them or not otherwise.

I did order and have received some, they seem reasonable well made, and the action feels nice,  though the angle of the drop into the hoods seems much steep than on my Campag STIs, which I've always found very comfortable, so am concerned that could be a problem. Also I can see there is a grey plastic insert inside which seems to move about a bit and have read reports that these can rattle when riding, which would be off-putting, or can you just remove these without causing problems?

I haven't tried fitting them yet, though - partly because on one of the ones I was sent the clamp screw has come undone and the the little jagged washer that's meant to be on the inside part has come out and I can't see how I would get it back onto the screw (which is still inside the mechanism and won't come out), so may probably need to send them back anyway....

The main benefit of these levers is that (unlike most other levers) they are designed in such a way as they are more likely to make the brakes work properly.

Obviously that is a very good thing and one of the main reasons I ordered them in the first place.

[BTW you may just need some new 'G' springs in the extant shifters, which would be a cheap fix.
Also re the shimergo setups; a little 'O' level metalwork will enable you to make a special washer that holds the cable in the right place to that a Hubbub style cable mount is a reliable option.  Note also that there are further (as yet largely undocumented) variations using 11s (road) shimano rear mechs and campag 10s shifters;  it is almost plug and play for 10s and a revised cable mount (the other way) may work for 9s too.]

It' not just the spring that is broken, even the action of the working lever doesn't feel quite right, I think they're quite worn out after 9 years of heavy use, so I think I would need either a complete reconditioning of the levers or a set of new (as in modern) Campag STI levers.

If I knew for sure that the modern 11 spd Campag Chorus Ultrashift levers would work with my 9-speed XT rear mech and front 22/32/44 triple (which is also on an XT mech, though I don't mind if I had to change the mech) I'd probably be prepared to stump up for them, though - they can be got for about £150: https://www.cyclerepublic.com/campagnolo-chorus-ultra-shift-ergo-shifters-11-speed.html

[Samuel D]

Also I can see there is a grey plastic insert inside which seems to move about a bit and have read reports that these can rattle when riding, which would be off-putting, or can you just remove these without causing problems?

Yes, and you should if you keep the BL-R400 levers. Of course they rattle less with a cable in place anyway.

I find them good to use, but I haven’t yet understood the appeal of the arbitrarily flat ramps that a lot of people go on about. For braking from the hoods or drops they are the best levers I’ve used.

[Oxford_Guy]

Also I can see there is a grey plastic insert inside which seems to move about a bit and have read reports that these can rattle when riding, which would be off-putting, or can you just remove these without causing problems?

Yes, and you should if you keep the BL-R400 levers. Of course they rattle less with a cable in place anyway.

I find them good to use, but I haven’t yet understood the appeal of the arbitrarily flat ramps that a lot of people go on about. For braking from the hoods or drops they are the best levers I’ve used.

Thanks - I may give them a go. Should I be concerned that the inner washer has come out? Don't want them coming undone when on a tour....

[Samuel D]

The toothed washer goes under the head of the clamp bolt if I remember correctly. To be sure, check your other lever.

Pull the lever to expose the clamp bolt, remove it with a long 5 mm Allen key if it’s not already loose, put the washer on the bolt, and thread the bolt back into the clamp.

When installing the lever on the handlebar, the bolt is torqued to 6–8 Nm.

[Oxford_Guy]

The toothed washer goes under the head of the clamp bolt if I remember correctly. To be sure, check your other lever.

Pull the lever to expose the clamp bolt, remove it with a long 5 mm Allen key if it’s not already loose, put the washer on the bolt, and thread the bolt back into the clamp.

The problem is that I can't see how to get the toothed washer back onto the end of the bolt easily - as I can't see how to extract the bolt completely out of the brake housing (out of the camp itself yes, but not out of the housing) there doesn't seem to be enough room for the bolt head to come out.

When installing the lever on the handlebar, the bolt is torqued to 6–8 Nm.

Thanks, I have a torque driver

[Samuel D]

I don’t recall the exact interior layout. I’d try plucking out the grey plastic piece we discussed above to create space.

[bobb]

On my tourer I have 2006 10sp Campag Ergos, an Ultegra triple chainset and front mech, an XT rear mech with SRAM 9 speed chain and cassette, with Campag cabling throughout.

It shifts perfectly. And it has done for the last 12 years and many, many miles.

The reason of course, is the Jtek Shiftmate That is the right Shimergo setup 

[Brucey]

[BTW you may just need some new 'G' springs in the extant shifters, which would be a cheap fix.

It' not just the spring that is broken, even the action of the working lever doesn't feel quite right, I think they're quite worn out after 9 years of heavy use....

the most common wear problem with this model of lever is that the G springs lose tension and that the part that the G springs bear against eventually wears.  Depending on how bad you let it get before you do something you will likely need new G springs only or G springs and index wheel.  These parts are becoming NLA anytime soon but some stockists still have them I think.

 IIRC there may be an 11s index wheel that fits Veloce 2005-2007 levers (which is what I assume you have) which would make them work with the shimano 9s kit with no hubbub cable mount required.

[edit BTW it is 100% false economy or something not to change out the cable housing when fitting new parts; the old stuff may well be worn out and may well ruin the braking action, without it being evident that this is happening.]

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

[BTW you may just need some new 'G' springs in the extant shifters, which would be a cheap fix.

It' not just the spring that is broken, even the action of the working lever doesn't feel quite right, I think they're quite worn out after 9 years of heavy use....

the most common wear problem with this model of lever is that the G springs lose tension and that the part that the G springs bear against eventually wears.  Depending on how bad you let it get before you do something you will likely need new G springs only or G springs and index wheel.  These parts are becoming NLA anytime soon but some stockists still have them I think.

 IIRC there may be an 11s index wheel that fits Veloce 2005-2007 levers (which is what I assume you have) which would make them work with the shimano 9s kit with no hubbub cable mount required.

[edit BTW it is 100% false economy or something not to change out the cable housing when fitting new parts; the old stuff may well be worn out and may well ruin the braking action, without it being evident that this is happening.]

cheers

I have 2006 10 speed Veloce levers. I've had enough with the shifting issues with them, especially in the last year, to want to move onto something else

BTW ALL the cable inners and outers were changed (using Campag cabling) when I last had the springs on the levers replaced about 3 years ago.

[Oxford_Guy]

On my tourer I have 2006 10sp Campag Ergos, an Ultegra triple chainset and front mech, an XT rear mech with SRAM 9 speed chain and cassette, with Campag cabling throughout.

It shifts perfectly. And it has done for the last 12 years and many, many miles.

The reason of course, is the Jtek Shiftmate That is the right Shimergo setup 

Can a Shiftmate make 11 speed Campag Chorus Ultrashift levers work with a Shimano XT triple mech using 22/32/44 chainrings? If so, which one?

[Brucey]

3 year old cables = knackered cables, usually.

unless you have not been riding your bike at all, I'd automatically change 'em

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

3 year old cables = knackered cables, usually.

unless you have not been riding your bike at all, I'd automatically change 'em

The inner cables have been replaced numerous times since then, but not the outers.

I will be changing both now, obviously

[mattc]

Re: Triples

If you have suitable frame bosses, please consider a DT lever (Lance stylee!); it's what I will do quite happily if for some reason I can no longer get micro-indexed Ergos, or another reliable solution.

(happy 10sp Ergo => 8sp Shimano rear customer here.  Since 2009. No mucking about required, it just works.)

[Oxford_Guy]

Re: Triples

If you have suitable frame bosses, please consider a DT lever (Lance stylee!); it's what I will do quite happily if for some reason I can no longer get micro-indexed Ergos, or another reliable solution.

(happy 10sp Ergo => 8sp Shimano rear customer here.  Since 2009. No mucking about required, it just works.)

Yes I do have suitable bosses for a downtube lever, though I'd rather not go that route unless I have to. Would probably also confuse me to still have a (useless) shift lever on the left shifter.