[HAMR] More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)

[Charlie Boy]

160? How do you get that? There is a zero entry in your list which might be why. That should be 131 miles I think. I believe 11th-17th should be about 180mpd average.

 UMCA values seem to differ from Strava. Privacy zones or something else?

Strava now has:-

M 11th 188.7
T 12th  130.9
W13th  225.7
T 14th 180.7 (appears on Friday due to going just past midnight)
F 15th 193.9
S 16th 200.2
S 17th 180.8
M 18th 186.0 (appears on Tuesday due to going just past midnight)

That's 185.9 miles per day over those 8 days, including 4 hours lost to a broken bike, and he's already got another 22 miles in the bank as they were done last night before going to sleep in York (yesterday's track ends at midnight near Snaith). Include those and it's ~188.6 miles per day.

The last 4 days (including the extra 22 miles) is 195.7 miles per day.

Encouraging.

Indeed. Glad to have got it wrong!

[Charlie Boy]

Despite the abysmal weather and bike problems, Steve is only 210 miles behind schedule. This is Good News.

[Exit Stage Left]

I've tracked down a whole undead army of 'zombie factoids', via an Australian newspaper archive site. Bruce Small PTY, Sturmey Archer's local agent sent out lots of press releases about the Year Record. Here's a story from August.

YEAR'S MILEAGE RECORD.
Bennett-Godwin Duel Develops
Organised Pacing.
Enlightening' news concerning the
astounding daily runs of Bernard Ben
nett and Tommy Godwin both of
whom are attacking Australian Ossic
Nicholson's world's mileage record of
62,'657.6 miles, is contained in a special
report * extracted from "English
Cycling" and forwarded, by the Coven
try ?.Office of Bruce Small Pty. Ltd.
"Both men have utilized pace, either
where it could be arranged or on
roads known to have a fair amount of
lorry traffic. Last week in seven days
(July 7th to 14th) Godwin covered
1,969 miles, making his total 38,47£
miles. Charles Davey, the well known
trainer-manager, is now'in charge of
Godwin and promises to intensify his
.riding programme .with regular car
assistance; Bennett covex*ed lt668 mile?
riri six days to July 13th and his total
to that' date is 37,531 miles. He is ad
vised and - trained by Rene Menzies
(who attacked the record .in 1937).
Some days Menzies accompanies him
on a bicycle and on others gives him
food from a motor cycle and side-car."
This explains the high figures ob
tained with assistance which was not.
availably to the Australian during hisFix this text
marvellous efforts. At "the same time,
however it gives complete confidence
that Nicholson, granted similar organ
ised pacing -and help with organised
feeding, will pass whatever figures the
Englishmen aggregate, as we . now
have "a feasible explanation of the
higher daily average of the two con
tenders.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/78154181?searchTerm=Tommy%20Godwin&searchLimits=

There's a handy link to all the Australian stories, which seem to derive from Bruce Small PTY, and hence Sturmey Archer.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=Tommy+Godwin

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Bruce Small was Oppy's manager pretty much throughout his career, including on-the-road support during his PBP win and most of his records. Bruce also was the BSA importer for Australia, owner of Malvern Star at the time and later on Lord Mayor of the Gold Coast.

I like the mention of a fair amount of lorry traffic.

[Exit Stage Left]

They'd only be 'zombie' lorries, so of no benefit.

[Exit Stage Left]

Actually it was Kemsley and co PTY who were the Australian SA importers. Bruce Small handled the rival Cyclo gears, so a competitor. The relevant edition of 'English Cycling'  that's quoted would be the best source.

[Citizenfish]

Bruce Small was the "Leader of the opposition" He was Nicholson's manager and sponsor. He did everything possible to discredit the various British attempts. Including lying about Nicholson's true mileage figures at the end of 1937 to give him an edge on Menzies.

Good Google-fu, but not conclusive evidence that Godwin and Bennett were accompanied by teams of riders every day. As I maintain, they took whatever advantages they could such as lorries, other riders, tailwinds etc.. But in the main were paced by their managers as that article alludes to. I cannot stress enough the importance of BALANCE when looking into this history. Random snippets of internet do not tell the full story. Reading across the entire press of the time, the Raleigh archives and accounts(searching for payments) and family interviews give a broader view of what actually happened. This is what it took me years to get to the bottom of it, not ten minutes of internet search and a bit of cut and paste. The real story shows two riders fighting each other for miles using  everything from sleep deprivation to drafting to get them, both goaded on by their relative team managers. THIS is what pacing means. The final judgement on ending it specifically mentioned the team managers retreating.

The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?

[Exit Stage Left]

Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.

There's an interesting insight into the profile of distance cycling in Australia in the 1930s in the story of Valda Unthank, who seems to have a claim on the ladies week record.



There's a great picture of her eating in a gas showroom window during her week long ride.



http://www.veloaficionado.com/blog/australias-long-distance-record-breaking-cyclist-valda-unthank

[Citizenfish]

Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.

Or maybe even read the book. There's more than just one article. I even tracked down HH England's family to try and get to the bottom of it, sadly he left this world without leaving his diaries behind.

[Ham]

Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.

There's an interesting insight into the profile of distance cycling in Australia in the 1930s in the story of Valda Unthank, who seems to have a claim on the ladies week record.



There's a great picture of her eating in a gas showroom window during her week long ride.



http://www.veloaficionado.com/blog/australias-long-distance-record-breaking-cyclist-valda-unthank

Bet nobody thanked her properly.

Interesting that The Godwin (205 per day) appears.

[Exit Stage Left]

The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?

I suggest you research Charles Holland, Bert James and Sid Ferris. Holland's call-up in September 1939 coincides with the withdrawal of pacing.

1938 was the year Holland attempted professional place-to-place records on the road, at that time the only way that a professional rider could publicise his sponsor, there still being no massed racing on the road and professionals not being allowed to ride amateur time-trials. In June, riding for Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer, Holland broke his first Road Records Association (RRA) record, knocking 12 minutes off the time of his rival, Frank Southall, for Liverpool to Edinburgh, completing the 210 miles in 10 hours.

In August he narrowly beat the record for Land's End to London but it was not accepted as a new RRA record because it did not improve on the old one by more than a minute. Two months later, he completed the 287 miles from Land's End to London again, racing at 21 mph through hours of rain and suffering four punctures but, knocking 25 minutes off the record.

Holland's professional career ended when Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. He was called up to join the Royal Corps of Signals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)#Road_records

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Actually it was Kemsley and co PTY who were the Australian SA importers. Bruce Small handled the rival Cyclo gears, so a competitor.

Hence the Cyclo Oppy derailleur
http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Cyclo_Oppy_derailleur.html

[Citizenfish]

Do you REALLY think these pedigree riders turned out to draft Godwin on a daily basis for 12 hours for nowt ..and that it went unreported?

I think I'll call it a day there. I prefer facts to supposition.

[Exit Stage Left]

How do you think that the Sturmey Archer professionals trained, given that they were excluded from amateur competition? They were setting new records on a regular basis.
Holland seems to have been a professional until September 1939. There are references to Ferris test-riding the four speed hub in 1939.
I'd be looking for employee records in the Sturmey Archer test department.

[hillbilly]

The last 4 days (including the extra 22 miles) is 195.7 miles per day.

Encouraging.

That figure simply makes me wonder where Steve is going to get the extra daily 30-40 miles from in future months.  That's an extra 2-3 hours riding a day.  Daunting.

[madcow]

Amidst all the hand wringing about TG -will he won't he?-the picture of Valda Unthank and the crowds hoping to catch a glimpse of  her transports us back to a different  age.
Thanks Damon , I love that photo.

[Tigerrr]

its just like that photo every time TG stops in for a fry up in MK.

[Exit Stage Left]

It reminds me of dance marathons, and the film 'They Shoot Horses Don't They'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_marathon

[Legs]

I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest.  You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring.  (I am aware that the winter on 1939 was very harsh).

To be honest, if I were in Godwin's shoes, I would have taken advantage of every opportunity to maximise my mileage and that would have included spending long periods of time sitting behind lorries.  Just because it is not documented by Godwin and Davey does not mean that it wasn't done - in fact, in the light of accusations from Bruce Small et al., they'd be daft to explicitly mention it.

Put it this way: if Tommy achieved his record without extensively drafting in the summer, then his July mileage is about ten times as impressive to me as his overall year figures.

[MikeFromLFE]

As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here

[LittleWheelsandBig]

As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here

Some of us pre-ordered his book - and a good read it is too.

[Ben T]

To be honest, if I were in Godwin's shoes, I would have taken advantage of every opportunity to maximise my mileage and that would have included spending long periods of time sitting behind lorries.  Just because it is not documented by Godwin and Davey does not mean that it wasn't done - in fact, in the light of accusations from Bruce Small et al., they'd be daft to explicitly mention it.

..and in light of the small matter of the global war that was just kicking off. Don't think I'd like spending 12 hours a day on a bike for a year especially for no pay but I'd rather that than get called up to get shot by Hitler and I don't think I'd want to shout about it either.

[Citizenfish]

As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here

Some poor bugger has to rewrite the last chapter now... but thanks ;-)

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.

[L CC]

I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest.  You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that in an age when it was possible to get opium over the counter, perhaps Tommy the vegetarian wouldn't have passed a urine test.