new chainset

[tatanab]

Assuming they can be tracked-down (seeing as it looks like they've gone into liquidation) are the sprockets that Marchisio produced any good? Looks like you can build up complete custom cassettes with these, though tracking a complete set down might be tricky...

Yes, very good.  I've been using them almost exclusively since 2003 for general purposes and for touring with camping kit.  They are very hard wearing, but may not give the precision of changing that a fully Shimano set up apparently does.  I use Campag and find that 8 speed works well enough for me and 10 speed is what I think as click click perfect.

When I heard about their demise I bought a stock of the sizes I use the most - advantage of Marchisio because you change just the sprockets you wear out.  Limited supplies are still available from http://clemenzo.com/en/marchisio/8-9-speed-cogs  who I have found to be very good and helpful.  Of course there may be other supplies, e.g. Alf  Webb used to keep (or get) some https://www.webbline.co.uk/

Miche is another supplier of individual sprockets.  I have found their 8/9 speed ones ok but their 10 speed ones wear very quickly.  I bought mine along with spacers etc from https://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/page.php?nom=RAYON&from=moteurDeRecherche&optionRecherche=&onlySearch=auMieux&catSearch=&marqueSearch=&txtSearch=miche

[Oxford_Guy]

the IRD cassette is horrible because of the ratios. The cassette suddenly jumps from 2T  to a 4T interval leaving a huge gap between the gears vs the other intervals.

Ah, I see! What about the Harris Century 12, assuming 21.6" is low enough for me (probably would be), that seems to have more sensible intervals, no? Obviously there is the price issue here, though, and doubts about future availability:

12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24, 27, 30T

That gives a quite usable 21.6" to 103.5 range and avoids a somewhat nasty 12-14 jump

BBB model BCS 09S exists in many flavours and some have unique sprockets not found in other cassettes; for example there is at least one which has a 22T sprocket which does not exist in other designs. They do a very handy 13-25 and they do a 12-27. Either could be modified to give a touring cassette or used 'as is' for other purposes. The lockring they use on most cassettes will work with a 12T to 14T top sprocket. Various retailers including triton, tredz, winstanleys, ribble etc usually have them. Prices start at about £13 and go upwards from there.

Frustratingly I failed to find a list with all the BBB cassette builds on, so intermediate sprockets are not certain in every case.

Okay, I might check out the BBB cassettes

[ElyDave]

SRAM seem to do a 12-32, but no detail on the sprockets other than either end here

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sram-10-spd-pg-1050-cassette/#pid=20802

edit - here they are

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/pg-1050-cassette

[Oxford_Guy]

Those 12-32 SRAM cassettes are 10 speed, not 9 speed, though...

[ElyDave]

Sorry, I'm ten speed, hadn't realised you were nine.

[Brucey]

What about the Harris Century 12, assuming 21.6" is low enough for me (probably would be), that seems to have more sensible intervals, no? Obviously there is the price issue here, though, and doubts about future availability:

12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24, 27, 30T

That gives a quite usable 21.6" to 103.5 range and avoids a somewhat nasty 12-14 jump...

for touring, that 'jump' is of no consequence whatsoever. Even for brisk unloaded day rides it is almost entirely inconsequential. The reason for this is that when you use those gears you are already going downhill and they just allow you to do that more quickly. Not much more quickly; try it and see.  If you use a 12T sprocket downhill or a 13T one it makes stuff-all difference a) at all or b) over a day's ride. Measure the difference and see.

 By contrast having a gear that is even 10% wrong on a climb is a much, much bigger deal; in the Alps you might be suffering with that for several hours. For loaded touring I'd ditch the 13T sprocket from that cassette and fit a 34T one, in a heartbeat. For brisk unloaded day rides I'd happily trade one of the smaller sprockets away in return for even small gains in terms of chainline in my most-used gears or more choices of intermediate ratios.

Okay, I might check out the BBB cassettes

good plan!

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Well this is typical, turns out now, after having the 46/34/24 TA Chinook chainrings fitted (with an 11-32 cassette for now), that when on the 11T cog in the middle 34T chainring, the chain catches on the TA chainring pins (the original SLX ones must have been less protruding), so 11T/34T (83.5") is unusable, leaving 11T/46T (112.9") as the only usable gear with the 11T cog! Not going to see much wear on that then...

Has anyone else experienced a similar issue with TA chain rings? I guess I could try to file the offending chainring pins down with something, but not sure it's worth it. Slightly annoying, as the nearest gears either side of 83.5" are 76.5" (12T/34T) or 77.6" (16T/46T) and 88.7" (14T/46T), so it does sit a bit in-between these, though  perhaps close enough to 88.7" not to be an issue. I guess in most case I would probably have changed-up to the 46T chain ring before then anyway. Not sure if I will have the same issue with a 12T outer cog, but I wouldn't be surprised!

BTW the 11-32 XT Cassette cog sizes are 11 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 28 / 32

[Cudzoziemiec]

So you buy a 10-sp cassette, take the smallest sprocket off and put it on a 9-speed wheel. Then does the lockring just screw on to the next sprocket? I've never noticed cos I've never had reason to look, whether there's a thread on that too. And what will you do with the "spare" sprocket?

Since a 10s cassette fits onto the same freehub body as a 9s cassette you can't easily tighten the remaining sprockets.  Using a shortened cassette makes most sense if you have a shorter (7s) freehub body too; this allows you to have a wheel with less dish etc.

You can create custom 9s cassettes by removing the smallest sprocket and adding a new (larger) #1 sprocket, thus (say) an 11-28 can be converted to a 13-32 simply by adding a 32T sprocket (and its spacer) and removing the 11T one. However in 10s this doesn't work so easily because the #1 sprocket is dished.

If you convert a 9s cassette as described then a new 11-28 cassette supplies all the sprockets that are likely to wear. 

The unused 11T sprockets can go in the bin, where they belong.

cheers

Possibly a bike recycling project would be thankful for them. Or someone who makes jewellery out of bike bits, which seems a common theme of jewellery on market stalls and similar nowadays.

[Si S]

Thoughts on SRAM's 10T sprockets Brucey? 

[Kim]

Or Shimano's 9T 

(No, those are a work of Stan.  The Capreo lockring tool is unfit for purpose.)

[Brucey]

Thoughts on SRAM's 10T sprockets Brucey? 

yes, few of them good....

In fairness if you want to ride a moulton (for example)  you only have a few choices, being an IGH, big chainrings, or small sprockets.  None is ideal but it is surprising to me how often small sprockets win out.  On the road with large wheels 1x cassettes too often (for my liking) leave you running on small (fast wearing, inefficient) sprockets if you want to have a sensible gear range, but that is another topic.

cheers

[Ian H]

... being an IGH...

I have no choice.  It's on my birth certificate.

[Oxford_Guy]

Well this is typical, turns out now, after having the 46/34/24 TA Chinook chainrings fitted (with an 11-32 cassette for now), that when on the 11T cog in the middle 34T chainring, the chain catches on the TA chainring pins (the original SLX ones must have been less protruding), so 11T/34T (83.5") is unusable, leaving 11T/46T (112.9") as the only usable gear with the 11T cog! Not going to see much wear on that then...

Has anyone else experienced a similar issue with TA chain rings? I guess I could try to file the offending chainring pins down with something, but not sure it's worth it. Slightly annoying, as the nearest gears either side of 83.5" are 76.5" (12T/34T) or 77.6" (16T/46T) and 88.7" (14T/46T), so it does sit a bit in-between these, though  perhaps close enough to 88.7" not to be an issue. I guess in most case I would probably have changed-up to the 46T chain ring before then anyway. Not sure if I will have the same issue with a 12T outer cog, but I wouldn't be surprised!

BTW although the chain rub from the chainring pins in 11T/34T can be felt and probably won't do the chain (or pins) much good if left in gear, it at least doesn't do anything horrendous, like derailing the chain completely or locking it up.

I also attempted some of the steeper hills (e.g. Shotover in Oxford) near where I live with the new gearing this morning. Going up Shotover Hill, can still get up it in 32T/24T sat down spinning, i.e. without having to stand up and honk it, but it's a fairly close call and suspect I would need a 34T ring to do a hill like that with luggage. It does rule out the 12-30T Harris 12 option for me, though, as 30T/24T is not going to be low enough for me.

Going down Shotover hill, the 11T/46T gear is usable, though that hill is so steep you don't really need any extra assistance... Going down Morrell Avenue in Oxford, which is on my daily commute and is a long, but not particularly steep hill, the 11t/46T gear definitely helps to get me faster than gravity alone, though traffic prevented the conclusion of "how fast" in that experiment.

So I reckon a 12-32 or 12-34/13-34 custom cassette is probably going to be what I ideally really need..

[Brucey]

slightly confused by your above post; presumably by 32/24 you mean  24T chainring and 32T sprocket? If so the gear ratio is more conventionally expressed as

chainring/sprocket   

not the other way round.

  For example (chainring /sprocket) x wheel dia (inches) gives the gear inches.

BTW if you are lugging a load then a considerably lower gear can be required, another 2T is unlikely to be enough. However if you tour in some places (eg the alps) then brutally steep climbs (over 15%) are fortunately very rare.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

slightly confused by your above post; presumably by 32/24 you mean  24T chainring and 32T sprocket? If so the gear ratio is more conventionally expressed as

chainring/sprocket   

not the other way round.

For example (chainring /sprocket) x wheel dia (inches) gives the gear inches.

Yes I meant 24T chainring and 32T sprocket - didn't know there was a convention for doing this (and can see that this makes sense), but I do now!

BTW if you are lugging a load then a considerably lower gear can be required, another 2T is unlikely to be enough. However if you tour in some places (eg the alps) then brutally steep climbs (over 15%) are fortunately very rare.

The hill I was testing the low gears on (Shotover hill) is a pretty brutal climb, not quite sure of the % steepness, but more than I see in most of my touring situations. I've managed loaded touring on 22T/32T previously, with no real difficulty, with moderate hills involved. It was mostly to see if I thought I might get away with 24T/30T, the answer to that (for touring anyway) is probably "no". I think 24T/32T will still be sufficient for most light touring I'm likley to do over non-extreme elevation changes. I'm no "expedition"-type tourer - more like the odd week in France, Czech Republic, Italy etc.

[Si S]

The hill I was testing the low gears on (Shotover hill) is a pretty brutal climb, not quite sure of the % steepness, but more than I see in most of my touring situations.

This one? . Max 12.5% ish so yeah a bit steeper than most continental roads. AIUI you can thank Napoleon for that.

[Oxford_Guy]

The hill I was testing the low gears on (Shotover hill) is a pretty brutal climb, not quite sure of the % steepness, but more than I see in most of my touring situations.

This one? . Max 12.5% ish so yeah a bit steeper than most continental roads. AIUI you can thank Napoleon for that.

Aye, that's the one. Tried it on my 6-speed Brompton the other week, even with -12% reduced gearing (smaller 44T chainring) I found it quite a struggle, but that was with 29.1" gearing, not in the low twenties like my Hewitt

[Oxford_Guy]

The hill I was testing the low gears on (Shotover hill) is a pretty brutal climb, not quite sure of the % steepness, but more than I see in most of my touring situations.

This one? . Max 12.5% ish so yeah a bit steeper than most continental roads. AIUI you can thank Napoleon for that.

Not as bad as Kop Hill, near Princes Risborough, mind - even with my old 22T/32T gearing, I struggled up that somewhat (semi-loaded), but that has a max grade of 23.3% !

https://veloviewer.com/segment/869135/Kop+Hill

[Oxford_Guy]

Assuming they can be tracked-down (seeing as it looks like they've gone into liquidation) are the sprockets that Marchisio produced any good? Looks like you can build up complete custom cassettes with these, though tracking a complete set down might be tricky...

Yes, very good.  I've been using them almost exclusively since 2003 for general purposes and for touring with camping kit.  They are very hard wearing, but may not give the precision of changing that a fully Shimano set up apparently does.  I use Campag and find that 8 speed works well enough for me and 10 speed is what I think as click click perfect.

When I heard about their demise I bought a stock of the sizes I use the most - advantage of Marchisio because you change just the sprockets you wear out.  Limited supplies are still available from http://clemenzo.com/en/marchisio/8-9-speed-cogs  who I have found to be very good and helpful.  Of course there may be other supplies, e.g. Alf  Webb used to keep (or get) some https://www.webbline.co.uk/

Miche is another supplier of individual sprockets.  I have found their 8/9 speed ones ok but their 10 speed ones wear very quickly.  I bought mine along with spacers etc from https://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/page.php?nom=RAYON&from=moteurDeRecherche&optionRecherche=&onlySearch=auMieux&catSearch=&marqueSearch=&txtSearch=miche

I've had a look into the Miche sprockets, these seem to be all the 9-speed parts I could find:

https://www.xxcycle.com/first-posisiton-shimano-8-9-speeds,,en.php

https://www.xxcycle.com/sprocket-shimano-2-position-8-9-s,,en.php

https://www.xxcycle.com/miche-cassette-spacer-grey-9-speeds-shimano,,en.php

So looks like they have every sprocket available from 12-29T, but nothing higher... Would I be able to use a 30T and 32T or 34T sprocket from Marchisio  or a BBB cassette with these sprockets?

Also, not sure if this lockring is compatible with a 9-speed 12T or 13T Miche Sprocket or not?: https://www.xxcycle.com/contre-ecrou-housing-pour-pignon-fixe-moyeu-miche-129-x-24,,en.php
 

[Cudzoziemiec]

The hill I was testing the low gears on (Shotover hill) is a pretty brutal climb, not quite sure of the % steepness, but more than I see in most of my touring situations.

This one? . Max 12.5% ish so yeah a bit steeper than most continental roads. AIUI you can thank Napoleon for that.

Not as bad as Kop Hill, near Princes Risborough, mind - even with my old 22T/32T gearing, I struggled up that somewhat (semi-loaded), but that has a max grade of 23.3% !

https://veloviewer.com/segment/869135/Kop+Hill

I've been up there, years ago on my old hybrid! Ob: gearing; I think it was either 22/28 or 24/28. I was unladen mind, which makes it an awful lot easier! (I'd left the tent and stuff at Watlington!)

[Si S]

The hill I was testing the low gears on (Shotover hill) is a pretty brutal climb, not quite sure of the % steepness, but more than I see in most of my touring situations.

This one? . Max 12.5% ish so yeah a bit steeper than most continental roads. AIUI you can thank Napoleon for that.

Not as bad as Kop Hill, near Princes Risborough, mind - even with my old 22T/32T gearing, I struggled up that somewhat (semi-loaded), but that has a max grade of 23.3% !

https://veloviewer.com/segment/869135/Kop+Hill

I've been up there, years ago on my old hybrid! Ob: gearing; I think it was either 22/28 or 24/28. I was unladen mind, which makes it an awful lot easier! (I'd left the tent and stuff at Watlington!)

I've been up it many years ago when I was working in Abingdon, unladen on 34 x 25, I wouldn't get it up now on that but I had just moved from Snowdonia, which helped.

[DuncanM]

Oxfordshire is supposed to be flat, but there are a few painful hills around. Muswell hill is a similar brute - the average isn't much to write home about but the kick in the middle is a PITA:
https://veloviewer.com/segments/1441052

[tatanab]

I've had a look into the Miche sprockets, these seem to be all the 9-speed parts I could find:

https://www.xxcycle.com/first-posisiton-shimano-8-9-speeds,,en.php

https://www.xxcycle.com/sprocket-shimano-2-position-8-9-s,,en.php

https://www.xxcycle.com/miche-cassette-spacer-grey-9-speeds-shimano,,en.php

So looks like they have every sprocket available from 12-29T, but nothing higher... Would I be able to use a 30T and 32T or 34T sprocket from Marchisio  or a BBB cassette with these sprockets?

Also, not sure if this lockring is compatible with a 9-speed 12T or 13T Miche Sprocket or not?: https://www.xxcycle.com/contre-ecrou-housing-pour-pignon-fixe-moyeu-miche-129-x-24,,en.php

That is because they are all you need.  You buy a first place sprocket (the smallest) then as many 2nd place as you need (8 to build a 9 speed cassette) because the sprockets are all the same other than number of teeth, then as many spacers as needed (8, although the first sprocket may have an integrated spacer, I don't remember.  So for the sake of a few pennies buy the 8th spacer).

Sizes - Marchiso only went to 30.  You could use this as your last place sprocket.  I've mixed Marchisio and Miche in the past.  Miche contain Shimano like ramps on the sprocket, Marchisio do not.  You might decide that for marginally better shifting Miche would serve better, especially since the gearing difference between 29 and 30 teeth is not much at all.

Lock ring - the one you have linked to is a fixed wheel lock ring, not for a cassette.  I would simply use any old Shimano cassette lockring which you probably have kicking about.

[Oxford_Guy]

I've had a look into the Miche sprockets, these seem to be all the 9-speed parts I could find:

https://www.xxcycle.com/first-posisiton-shimano-8-9-speeds,,en.php

https://www.xxcycle.com/sprocket-shimano-2-position-8-9-s,,en.php

https://www.xxcycle.com/miche-cassette-spacer-grey-9-speeds-shimano,,en.php

So looks like they have every sprocket available from 12-29T, but nothing higher... Would I be able to use a 30T and 32T or 34T sprocket from Marchisio  or a BBB cassette with these sprockets?

Also, not sure if this lockring is compatible with a 9-speed 12T or 13T Miche Sprocket or not?: https://www.xxcycle.com/contre-ecrou-housing-pour-pignon-fixe-moyeu-miche-129-x-24,,en.php

That is because they are all you need.  You buy a first place sprocket (the smallest) then as many 2nd place as you need (8 to build a 9 speed cassette) because the sprockets are all the same other than number of teeth, then as many spacers as needed (8, although the first sprocket may have an integrated spacer, I don't remember.  So for the sake of a few pennies buy the 8th spacer).

Sizes - Marchiso only went to 30.  You could use this as your last place sprocket.  I've mixed Marchisio and Miche in the past.  Miche contain Shimano like ramps on the sprocket, Marchisio do not.  You might decide that for marginally better shifting Miche would serve better, especially since the gearing difference between 29 and 30 teeth is not much at all.

Thanks, yes sounds like Marchisio Miche might be the better better bet due to the ramps (is it obvious how to line these up correctly?), but I will probably need a 30 sprocket and definitely a 32, or possibly even 34 - for these, can I just use sprockets taken from Shimano or BBB cassettes?

Lock ring - the one you have linked to is a fixed wheel lock ring, not for a cassette.  I would simply use any old Shimano cassette lockring which you probably have kicking about.

I think I only have spare lockrings for 11T first sprockets, I'd understood the lockring for 12T first sprockets and up is different. Would I have to buy a 12-xx cassette just to get a 12T first-compatible lockring?

[tatanab]

Thanks, yes sounds like Marchisio might be the better better bet due to the ramps (is it obvious how to line these up correctly?), but I will probably need a 30 sprocket and definitely a 32, or possibly even 34 - for these, can I just use sprockets taken from Shimano or BBB cassettes?

There is no way to line up ramps because the sprockets fit in one way only on your freehub.  Do the ramps help?  I don't know, but if they do it must be in "marginal gains" to quote Sky.  As I said I am not an aficionado of Shimano stuff.  I've used sprockets without ramps for 50 years now, and even with indexing I cope just fine.  My Campag and Marchiso equipped 10 speed changes gear perfectly - no ramps or low profile teeth to wear prematurely.

I think I only have spare lockrings for 11T first sprockets, I'd understood the lockring for 12T first sprockets and up is different. Would I have to buy a 12-xx cassette just to get a 12T first-compatible lockring?

It seems to me that an 11T lockring must be a smaller outside diameter, that is all, so I see no reason for it not working.

I'm of a generation and mindset that is used to mixing and matching parts (never bought a "groupset" for example) so am happy to experiment and see what works and what doesn't.