What to do with my Vista HCx?

[andyoxon]

Sometime after I bought the Garmin eTrex Vista HCx off ebay (~£65) it developed a USB/power fault, which means I can't update firmware, and the battery life is limited to 4-5hrs.  This was Ok while I was doing shorter rides. 

So, I could send it back to Garmin and get a refurbed HCx unit for £70, or,
I could think about a etrex 20/30 as an early birthday present (£125-170).

A refurbed unit would be cheaper, but perhaps cutting losses and upgrading is the thing to do.  There are quite a number of threads on hcx/etrex20/30; I kind of get the feeling that while the newer models are better in some ways, it's slighty marginal, and they may not be £50 better...

What do you recommend?

[Kim]

Depends how invested in the HCx way of doing things you are.

The newer models are undeniably better hardware.  The software is frustratingly different in places, with less to tweak, but perhaps easier to use if you're not already fluent in the older models.  They have a much more enlightened approach to transfer of map images and GPX files.

For me, the big win with the eTrex 30 is the lack of a stupid rubber band to go floppy, and a really secure and versatile handlebar bracket that doesn't leave you with a knobbly thing on the back of the unit in handheld mode.  The joystick's in the right place for right-handed users, now, too.

The big losses are no more idiot-proof logging of everything to an untouchable file on the SD card (everything's on the filesystem, so you can easily delete the log by mistake if you fat-finger it), no more turn direction popups (it just draws the arrows on the map), and a stupid first-trackpoint-appears-in-previous-location bug that renders the trip odometer useless if you're in the habit of making multi-modal journeys, and means you have to do a bit of tidying up of the tracklog afterwards.


TBH, I bought a 30 on the basis that even the best refurbished Vista HCX would inevitably develop a (botchable) battery contact fault and (not so botchable) floppy rubber band eventually.

[frankly frankie]

Minuses for the E20/30:

* small text fonts in data fields
* reduced selection of routing options
* unable to turn off 'recalculate when off route'
* unable to turn off compass
* Tracks tend to lose their 'show on map' status periodically
* If you navigate using the 'show coloured track on map' method, then they are far less visible (than a Vista) owing to the more rendered nature of the map
* Doesn't play well with Mapsource
[edit to add] * slightly worse battery runtime
[edit again to add] * no proper 'reset' menu.

There are of course lots of pluses, particularly in regard to Track handling, storage, navigation - and these probably do outweigh the above.

TBH, I bought a 30 on the basis that even the best refurbished Vista HCX would inevitably develop a (botchable) battery contact fault and (not so botchable) floppy rubber band eventually.

Yebbut all the Garmins that use AAs have the potential for the same battery contact problem.  They all use the same construction.  The E30 (and other new models) is better because the mount is better.

BTW I confidently predict an E40 before the end of the year.  The big brother GPS62 now has a GPS64 replacement out.

[T42]

I use an eTrex 20, having had a Venture Cx that developed floppy rubber band and being offered the same replacement deal as the OP.  I'm happy enough with it, except that I'd like to be able to set separate day- & night-time colours for the tracks.

Battery consumption is lower than the Venture Cx, too: I can get around 24 hours out of a set of rechargeables.

[Kim]

Yebbut all the Garmins that use AAs have the potential for the same battery contact problem.  They all use the same construction.

Do they?  I haven't seen the insides of a new eTrex yet.  Not exactly surprising, though.

I don't think the mount really affects that failure mode, just the amount of vibration it's subjected to over time causing the pads to erode.

[frankly frankie]

The mount is crucial.  As committed old-Etrex users, I and my partner have suffered zero battery-shake problems over the last 4 years or more, since understanding how to improve the mounting system.  Before that, with the same GPSs, problems all the time.  Simply, eliminate the rattle. 
The new Etrexes and the 'spine' mount do this for you without any need to add sticky tape (provided the mount is not a cheap imitation).

[Kim]

It's not the batteries shaking though, it's the underside of the battery clip springs wearing holes in the PCB.  I've always used tape with the old-style mounts because the rattle annoyed me (since I first put my Yellow eTrex on a bike back in 2007), but the internal battery springs on my Vista HCx^[1] still wore out the PCB pads eventually (admittedly, only after the rubber band had failed).  I botched around this by soldering wires between the springs and un-damaged copper tracks, which successfully repaired^[2] the fault (sadly I've been unable to botch the rubber band failure in a reliable manner).

And just because it's not rattling in the bracket doesn't mean it's not being subject to all kinds of nasty vibration (though the frequency might be different, I suppose).  See threads passim about gel mitts, bar tape, riding position and the like.  Bicycles are inherently hostile places for hardware.

Agreed that the new mounting bracket is an improvement, though.  No tape, no rattles, no unobtanium snappy clip secured by a Jesus bolt, and you can attach it to vertical tubes as well as horizontal ones.   


_{[1] The Yellow eTrex and the Legend that replaced it became obsolete, rather than developing faults.  I sold the Yellow, but still have the Legend in full working order.
[2] Even on the ICE trike, which is particularly bad for vibration, on account of two small unsuspended front wheels (two axes of vibration rather than the one of a bicycle).  It would cut out chronically on there, while going for hours without trouble on the other bikes.}

[Martin]

reading this thread with interest; my old Vista HcX suffered from the usual "loose drawers and turn itself off every bump" I replaced it with another MIB ebay same model as I like the system and had just forked out on 2 handlebar brackets that are incompatible with anything else

well 3 months down the line the new unit is being as much of a bitch  I don't understand the battery thingy though; either there is a PCB connection or there isn't

the equivalent new models (I refuse to go backwards; why would I want something you cannot buy batteries for on the road?) don't sound a whole lot better, so I won't be rushing to send it back to Garmin

[Kim]

well 3 months down the line the new unit is being as much of a bitch  I don't understand the battery thingy though; either there is a PCB connection or there isn't

The springs in the battery compartment go down through the plastic shell, and emerge internally as another set of spring contacts on the inside.  These are pushed against pads of exposed copper on the PCB (which is attached to the top half of the shell), with the force of the fasteners that hold the two haves of the unit together, making a good electrical contact.

Except that the copper layer of a PCB is quite thin (the clue's in the name), and the tiny amount of movement in the springs caused by changes in temperature and environmental vibration eventually causes them to rub the copper away from the point of contact.  As the copper (and the non-conductive substrate beneath it) erodes, the contact becomes increasingly intermittent, and eventually the periods of high resistance during the vibration cycle become too long for the reservoir capacitors to fill in for, causing the unit to cut out.  Some websites suggest adding a bigger reservoir capacitor as a repair technique - this improves the unit's immunity to an interrupted battery connection - useful if the batteries are bouncing around an making an intermittent contact with the springs, as well as the PCB pad fault, though I've seen no evidence that that's what's happening in mine^[1].

Not that the traditional alternative of soldering wires between the battery clips and the board would necessarily be any better for reliability (it would certainly add complexity to manufacture).  Solder joints are just as prone to vibration failure, especially lead-free hand-soldered ones.


_{[1] Rechargeable batteries in particular take liberties with the physical dimension specs, so it stands to reason that this problem won't affect everyone.}

[frankly frankie]

It's not the batteries shaking though, it's the underside of the battery clip springs wearing holes in the PCB.

And that design feature is, AIUI, common to all Garmins old or new, that use 2xAAs.

[andyoxon]

Thanks all.

There do seem to be some 'irritating' omissions/changes (why do developers do this?) in the E20/30, compared to the Vista Hcx, but I suppose my time invested in doing things things the 'vista way', is not that significant.  I really just  followed tracks, on OFM-UK, without beeps.  Though if my vista was OK, I'd be looking to 'beep my rides'.   So I guess I'd probably just get used to the 20/30 - though not being able to turn recalc route off, reduced routing options, and also less visible tracks, sounds annoying.  TBH not using audible warnings, and trying to conserve battery life on the vista, meant that I actually found the vista screen a bit tricky to see on the move, fiddling with screen brightness etc (not having found the 'auto' screen backlight on function.

I think I might have been able to cope with soldering springs, but unfortunately 'isolating V+- lines and connecting variable resistor' in the USB circuit is beyond me.  Using andorid phone is Ok, though on the recent audax even Mytracks stopped logging the ride for some reason (my theory is that it was when I unplugged the phone from the USB power pack at first control).  Osmand also at one point quit out of the blue, and I had to fiddle reloading everything...

Unless I spot a bargain vista hcx, I guess it's probably 'watch the E20/30/(40) space'...

Andy

Minuses for the E20/30:

* small text fonts in data fields
* reduced selection of routing options
* unable to turn off 'recalculate when off route'
* unable to turn off compass
* Tracks tend to lose their 'show on map' status periodically
* If you navigate using the 'show coloured track on map' method, then they are far less visible (than a Vista) owing to the more rendered nature of the map
* Doesn't play well with Mapsource
[edit to add] * slightly worse battery runtime

There are of course lots of pluses, particularly in regard to Track handling, storage, navigation - and these probably do outweigh the above.

TBH, I bought a 30 on the basis that even the best refurbished Vista HCX would inevitably develop a (botchable) battery contact fault and (not so botchable) floppy rubber band eventually.

Yebbut all the Garmins that use AAs have the potential for the same battery contact problem.  They all use the same construction.  The E30 (and other new models) is better because the mount is better.

BTW I confidently predict an E40 before the end of the year.  The big brother GPS62 now has a GPS64 replacement out.

[frankly frankie]

I really just  followed tracks, on OFM-UK, without beeps.

I've just come back from a tour in France using an E30 in that way**, and really, it wasn't very good.  Though my main problem - the coloured Track being hard to see on the too-rendered map - is probably one you already get if you use OFM?
By too-rendered, I mean that roads are depicted as two parallel lines rather than as a single 'wireframe' line.  Garmin maps on the old Etrex depict as a wireframe, and coloured Tracks stand out really well on this.  The same Garmin maps on the new Etrex show roads as 2 parallel lines, and the Track just kinda disappears in the mush.

The solution is to 'navigate' the Track (loading it like you would a Route on an old Etrex) in which case it turns into the familiar thick magenta line and that works fine.

But also, 'Show on map' by default is off for each track you upload to your GPS.  You have to visit the Track menu for each Track you have, to switch it on, which for a 2-week tour with some planned alternative routes on some days, is a bore.  And on mine, if you upload another Track to add to the 20 or so already in memory, it has the effect of turning 'Show on map' off again for all the others    Still, at least you can have more than 20 Tracks    And it doesn't rattle 

The loss of routing options isn't really a problem - I only ever use 'car' anyway, and unsurprisingly that's still there.  As is bicycle if you're masochistic enough.  The (useful in big towns) 'Delivery' option has gone though.


** just to try it really.  Normally I would use a Vista and on a planned tour, direct turn-by-turn routes, or on an unplanned tour I would use 'Go To' and 'follow road' in short hops of 20km or so, so 4 or 5 of these per day.  But Vistas are history, we have to convert to newer stuff sooner or later.

(why do developers do this?)

Well - there were some things in Windows 3.1 that I muchly preferred to what I have now on Win7.

[Wobbly John]

It's not just the AA cell Garmins that suffer from battery connection problems - my old Geko 201 with AAA bateries does too.     The serial-USB lead didn't have drivers for Win8 anyway, so I needed to dig an old laptop out to be able to use it. 

I've picked up a £20 Venture HC from Ebay, and hope it lasts a bit longer. The maps are a bit rubbish (it shows home to be on the wrong side of the bypass - 1/2 a mile away.  It has about the right level of complexity for me - the GPS app I have on the phone is tooooo complicated and the touch screen tooooooo fiddly to use on the bike.

Thanks for all the info on the bad connection fault, Kim. I might pull the Geko apart to see if I can remedy it when I get a round tuit.

Edit - slight corrosion on one contact (they look gold plated on mine). Contacts cleaned and a bit more pressure sprung in - It's quite light so I'll probably try it as a computer on the TT bike - I don't think it would fetch much on ebay.

[andyoxon]

I really just  followed tracks, on OFM-UK, without beeps.

I've just come back from a tour in France using an E30 in that way**, and really, it wasn't very good.  Though my main problem - the coloured Track being hard to see on the too-rendered map - is probably one you already get if you use OFM?
By too-rendered, I mean that roads are depicted as two parallel lines rather than as a single 'wireframe' line.  Garmin maps on the old Etrex depict as a wireframe, and coloured Tracks stand out really well on this.  The same Garmin maps on the new Etrex show roads as 2 parallel lines, and the Track just kinda disappears in the mush.

The solution is to 'navigate' the Track (loading it like you would a Route on an old Etrex) in which case it turns into the familiar thick magenta line and that works fine.

But also, 'Show on map' by default is off for each track you upload to your GPS.  You have to visit the Track menu for each Track you have, to switch it on, which for a 2-week tour with some planned alternative routes on some days, is a bore.  And on mine, if you upload another Track to add to the 20 or so already in memory, it has the effect of turning 'Show on map' off again for all the others    Still, at least you can have more than 20 Tracks    And it doesn't rattle 

The loss of routing options isn't really a problem - I only ever use 'car' anyway, and unsurprisingly that's still there.  As is bicycle if you're masochistic enough.  The (useful in big towns) 'Delivery' option has gone though.


** just to try it really.  Normally I would use a Vista and on a planned tour, direct turn-by-turn routes, or on an unplanned tour I would use 'Go To' and 'follow road' in short hops of 20km or so, so 4 or 5 of these per day.  But Vistas are history, we have to convert to newer stuff sooner or later.

(why do developers do this?)

Well - there were some things in Windows 3.1 that I muchly preferred to what I have now on Win7.

Thanks.  Navigating the tracks sounds good.  Are the proximity alerts etc available too, or is that for 'routes'..?   

Re. the software of 'next models', I do wonder why things are often not corrected in firmware, when it might be 'easy' to do so.  e.g. On the vista hcx, compass off (long press top right button) - Extrex 30; no 'compass off'.

[frankly frankie]

I don't find the bleep alerts work as well as they do on the Vista when routing.  They tend to come too late or not at all on the E30.  I don't think it bleeps at all when navigating a Track.  However it does flag upcoming Waypoints, so you can be following a Track and yet still have a 'distance to next' display, which works pretty well.

An E30 navigating a Track and indicating that the next turn is a right in 2.97km.
Unfortunately if the Track has embedded elevations, it will also insert distances to 'next hight point' and 'next low point' which in lumpy country may be all very interesting, but fouls up some of the navigational hints.

'Proximity' waypoints (ie waypoints which have been specifically flagged to alert when you approach them) I think would work regardless of what mode you had the GPS in.

[Kim]

I don't find the bleep alerts work as well as they do on the Vista when routing.  They tend to come too late or not at all on the E30.  I don't think it bleeps at all when navigating a Track.  However it does flag upcoming Waypoints, so you can be following a Track and yet still have a 'distance to next' display, which works pretty well.

Yes, I find that particularly irritating.  I tend to use hand-crafted autorouting so I get proper beeps and visible turn arrows, but on the odd occasion I end up following a track, the lack of any kind of beeping or turn instructions, combined with the dark blue navigation line being hard to discriminate from the light blue of minor roads makes the whole thing a bit of a mess.

'Proximity' waypoints (ie waypoints which have been specifically flagged to alert when you approach them) I think would work regardless of what mode you had the GPS in.

This is the best approach for controls, IMHO.

[andrew_s]

It's not the batteries shaking though, it's the underside of the battery clip springs wearing holes in the PCB.

And that design feature is, AIUI, common to all Garmins old or new, that use 2xAAs.

I've had no battery problems on either my Vista or the 60CSx that preceded it. I put it down to having the unit mounted on a Minoura Space Grip rather than directly to the handlebars, which will take the sting out of road shocks.

[Kim]

It's not the batteries shaking though, it's the underside of the battery clip springs wearing holes in the PCB.

And that design feature is, AIUI, common to all Garmins old or new, that use 2xAAs.

I've had no battery problems on either my Vista or the 60CSx that preceded it. I put it down to having the unit mounted on a Minoura Space Grip rather than directly to the handlebars, which will take the sting out of road shocks.

As I say, my Yellow eTrex and eTrex Legend never suffered this problem, in spite of using exactly the same mounting on the Vista HCx that eventually did, so it's far from inevitable.  The Yellow didn't do all that many bike miles, though.

[T42]

Decathlon here are offering the E20 for 163€

[andyoxon]

There's quite a variation, on Amazon E20 = £132, E30 = £165, but UK Decathlon E20 = £160.

[Ningishzidda]

Is the Thames your nearest river?

How good is your throwing arm?

[andyoxon]

It will do 100km+/decent walk with a battery change; though you have to keep an eye of it.  So I'm not quite ready for getting rid...

[Wowbagger]

I have botched the rubber band problem on by Vista Hcx with sellotape and it seems OK.

I haven't had a problem with the batteries' connection. It could be because I use a RAM mount and that provides a modicum of suspension.

I reckon I have had my machine for between 6 and 7 years and it has done a lot of miles, and even more kilometres.

[andyoxon]

Just OOI investigating buying a spare part - one can actually buy the USB port connectors (shown in this photo - not mine), but I guess it's more likely to be the main board at fault(?)



Anyone have a 'defunct' HCx that they don't want..?   

[Ian H]

Just OOI investigating buying a spare part - one can actually buy the USB port connectors (shown in this photo - not mine), but I guess it's more likely to be the main board at fault(?)



Anyone have a 'defunct' HCx that they don't want..?   

The article associated with that image might be useful for some people.
http://www.takeadventure.com/images/stories/My_images/Reviews/GPS/kontakt_problem.jpg