Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: Mrs Pingu on 21 January, 2017, 07:11:53 pm
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Last September I got a new shed door fitted. It was made by the joiner and is a "framed, ledged & braced" door apptly.
Probably not the best time of year to get it done as painting it was problematic before the Aberdeen damp set in.
Long story short, it's completely buggered now, so I'm going to need to get a new one.
This is where all our bikes live so something reasonably secure is a must and as maintenance free as possible would be ideal.
I've got it into my head that a UPVC door might not be that secure, is this tosh?
Obviously I could get another wooden one made and not get it fitted until it's been all properly painted but if I can get away with no painting ever that would be fab.
What does the assembled vast experience of the panel think?
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I don't think uPVC would be much different to wood, security-wise.
They would both be able to be attacked with the same tools, I'd have thought.
But with uPVC, you're going to get a Hard Time from Aunt Maud...
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Indeed.
What's wrong with the wooden door you have ?
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It's swelled up so much and had such a lot planed off it that it's now through to the joint on that side. Also the tongues of wood on the front of the door are rippling and splitting where they're trying to expand and there's no room for them to do so.
Some of this is probably due to a) circumstances and b) my own ineptitude, so before anyone wants to spell it out I've done it already, lesson learned.
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my wooden sailing dinghy suffered 20 years of racing, being knocked about and left out in rain and worse. It looks almost new and is100% watertight. With modern coatings wood will look better,last longer and be stronger than most options. Just dont leave it uncoated!!!
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It was probably much better wood. Generally, hardwood is fine outdoors and softwood isn't.
The silent method of attack on uPVC is apprently to use a blowtorch to melt the corners of any panels, which can then be kicked in easily. A composite (fibreglass) door may be a better option.
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My mum had a wooden door from the cellar onto the back street (the house is on a steep hill so the - very damp - cellar is level with the ground at the back of the house) which warped and swelled and had to be replaced. She had a UPVC one fitted (it cost £1500) about ten years ago and she has had no problems since.
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We are having a new UPVC back door fitted. Three quotes and all about the same £650-680 inc vat and fitting.
Composite doors are better still but more expensive - we are also having one of those for the front door which needs to be well insulated and more secure. The quote for that is not comparable since it includes a fairly large surround.
Cheaper option: Wood can be coated as ian says. Epoxy resin is extemely tough, I injected some into a crumbly, worm-eaten antique; it was like putting it on steroids, tough as the proverbial old boots now. Once so coated, wood will absorb no water.
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He's used kiln dried timber and it would have been better off being made with air dried timber, but that's hard to get hold of and expensive when you do find it.
Exterior doors made from very dry wood have a habit of self destructing. It sounds like it'll make fine kindling though.
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Can you apply a thin layer of plywood to it (perhaps with epoxy adhesive) and perhaps to both sides, and then slather epoxy over all of the exposed sides? I'm thinking the kind of epoxy used for boat building. 3 or 5 mm ply would do fine. I would think there would be a boatyard in Aberdeen that could salvage your door for you. Then finish with varnish (if the outside plywood face is attractive) or paint. You don't need the fancy marine paints, but you do need something to block the UV. If you use varnish, it's likely an annual sand-it and revarnish chore.
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The joiner (not the one that made the shed door) is coming today to fit my new living room alcove cupboard (much excite!) So I'll see what he has to say about it.
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Usually wood can be stabilised, but it needs the damp driving out first, then I wouldn't go the varnish route myself, I'd use microporous woodstains or some of the better wood oils.
If it wasn't a posh door (or not very visible), then linseed oil and paraffin 50/50 works incredibly well (I've used that on wood outdoors). You just have to keep reapplying it but the great thing is that there isn't any laborious prep, just quick scrub off loose dirt and apply with a brush. The downside is it tends to go very dark, almost black.
If you use wood hardner, then you can't use the woodstain or oils (because they can't penetrate the wood). You are left with painting and despite what the manufacturers say, paint isn't impervious to water. Painted wood that is rained on will still swell.
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I doubt you'd be able to save it, as the frame (not the liner but the rails and stiles) sounds like it's too small for the expanded t&g.
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Joiner today says when he makes them like that he uses thicker t&g and paints the tongues before assembly.
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The thing with wood is that it expands and contracts radially and tangentially to the pith of the log it was sawn from, but not longitudinally, so the rails (horizontal bits) won't move to accommodate the ever expanding and contracting panel (t&g bits) and the panel will either bow out or force the joints between the rail and stiles apart. QED a buggered door.
No amount of paint or chemicals will save a door thus constructed, if it's subject to rain or damp. OK inside, pants outside.
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The thing with wood is that it expands and contracts radially and tangentially to the pith of the log it was sawn from, but not longitudinally, so the rails (horizontal bits) won't move to accommodate the ever expanding and contracting panel (t&g bits) and the panel will either bow out or force the joints between the rail and stiles apart. QED a buggered door.
No amount of paint or chemicals will save a door thus constructed, if it's subject to rain or damp. OK inside, pants outside.
I must admit my French external doors are ledged with bloody great iron nails holding them together. The first one was put in about 10 years ago and has been fine. They are, however, naturally seasoned oak 3cm thick. I made them myself, incl. cutting the T&Gs and the holes in the walls.
So I think it does depend on the timber (3cm oak doors weigh a tonne so I am using chestnut internally). Oak would also be more secure than pine.
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The thing with wood is that it expands and contracts radially and tangentially to the pith of the log it was sawn from, but not longitudinally, so the rails (horizontal bits) won't move to accommodate the ever expanding and contracting panel (t&g bits) and the panel will either bow out or force the joints between the rail and stiles apart. QED a buggered door.
No amount of paint or chemicals will save a door thus constructed, if it's subject to rain or damp. OK inside, pants outside.
What construction of door would be better?
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A galvanised one.
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UPVC it is then :P
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20mm pressure treated T&G, ledged and braced. Speak to a fencing supplier, they make solid gates all the time. When fitted "damp" they will shrink a bit in drier weather but not swell oversize in the wet. http://www.elbecgardenbuildings.co.uk/6ft-high-1820mm-grange-tongue-groove-ledged-braced-gate-pressure-treated/p2754 is an example of ready made, but many will make to measure. I could take a picture of our combine shed door/garden gate that has been in for 15 years but it's a bit cold out at the moment. Public facing as it lets out onto the lane at the rear. No further treatment other than using 20mm "tanalised" T&G and pressure treated 3" CLS for the ledges and bracing. Door/gate and galvanised strap hinges would be less than £100 made to size/order.
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UPVC it is then :P
I'm serious, galvanised steel would be my choice if I was purchasing a door and was going to be slack with the maintenance.
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It would be galvanised cladding? Or this sort of thing?
(http://www.americanblastdoor.com/images/door-blast-36-80-open-1200w.jpg)
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^ :D
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It would be galvanised cladding? Or this sort of thing?
(http://www.americanblastdoor.com/images/door-blast-36-80-open-1200w.jpg)
I'd like to see the bike shed that's going on.
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HMS Bikey McBikeShedFace, obv :D
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Overkill that door, especially as one can just walk around the side of it.
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Angle iron and wriggly tin.
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We used to metal clad shed/garage doors containing horticultural machinery in mainland europe. So they cut through the concrete walls and nicked the stuff anyway. >:(
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Finally, I haz shiny new steel door, the locksmiths were very impressed with the bank vault look. And a steel panel behind the green cladding. :)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4497/37501954002_ef1250db89_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Z8VjnQ)2017-10-06_04-26-54 (https://flic.kr/p/Z8VjnQ) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/37501961632_53b8ab0bfa_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Z8VmDo)2017-10-06_04-27-15 (https://flic.kr/p/Z8VmDo) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4495/36863816083_1bb024b3f9_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YawGcV)2017-10-06_04-27-38 (https://flic.kr/p/YawGcV) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Now the boys know where to direct the angle grinder.