Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => The Sporting Life => Topic started by: Basil on 01 February, 2017, 10:26:42 pm

Title: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 01 February, 2017, 10:26:42 pm
Time for this thread, I think.

My prediction

Ireland
England
Wales
France
Scotland
Italy

The fixtures on the last weekend will be crucial.

Saturday 18th March 2017
Scotland v Italy at BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 12:30pm
France v Wales at Stade de France, Paris 2:45pm
Ireland v England at Aviva Stadium, Dublin 5:00pm
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Psychler on 01 February, 2017, 10:44:03 pm
Mine:-

England
Ireland
Scotland
France
Wales
Italy

It will be very close between England and Ireland, the final weekend will tell.  It will all depend on injuries etc over the course of the championship; which is why I think England will prevail, having better back up than Ireland.

It's the same reason why I think Wales may suffer this season [even though it didn't effect them during the world cup].

I'm looking forward to a resurgent Scotland.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 01 February, 2017, 10:49:55 pm

I'm looking forward to a resurgent Scotland.

 :thumbsup:

I do hope that I'm wrong and you are right.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 01 February, 2017, 10:56:33 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Bloke_on_a_bike/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170201_225235_zpsgtmc5wyl.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Bloke_on_a_bike/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170201_225235_zpsgtmc5wyl.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: madcow on 02 February, 2017, 12:28:28 am
A resurgent Scotland has been in the offing for the last 2. seasons. The autumn international against Australia showed, once again, that they don't have the top, top quality players that England have.
On the other hand, this is the first time for several years that I have not bought any tickets for Murrayfield, so they are bound to win all their home games.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: firedfromthecircus on 02 February, 2017, 06:42:06 pm
Can't see past England romping it (sadly).

That Jones boy seems to know his stuff.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 03 February, 2017, 09:06:37 pm
Bloody hell Scotland Women.  >:(  You've done exactly what the men do.  Lost a match that you really should have won. 
Camped in Ireland's half for most of the second half with the score at 15 all, you loose it in the last minute.
I was watching it on my tablet on the BBC sport app in the pub.   Rest of the pub was watching the Wales Italy under 20s on S4C.
They had a better evening than I did.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 03 February, 2017, 09:13:33 pm
I'm thinking England to top the  table, but no grand slam

Might even put France in 5th place

Gonna be pretty tight I think
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 03 February, 2017, 10:20:25 pm
I agree, not as cut and dried as many think, plus the likelihood of Eddie losing his first match.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 02:40:35 pm
Is it a knock-on if it comes off the player's chest?

*googles*

Quote
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

So, in my book, that was a bad decision by the referee.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 03:07:34 pm
Good scrummaging by Ireland, but the rest of their game has been ropey.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Marco Stefano on 04 February, 2017, 03:41:02 pm
Part way through our marathon watching day, starting with England U20s at 12 (excellent), finishing with England Women until after 9pm.

Good stuff so far; Scotland living up to club performances lately. Ireland lacking punch at the moment.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 04 February, 2017, 03:53:14 pm
Bloody hell Scotland.  You're doing it yet again.  >:(
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 03:54:17 pm
What is the point of giving 3 bonus points to the team that wins the grand slam? How will that affect the final table?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Marco Stefano on 04 February, 2017, 03:57:41 pm
Bloody hell Scotland.  You're doing it yet again.  >:(

Laidlaw held as he swept past the ruck, from which Jackson scored. Hmm; might well have made the difference. Scotland looking a little weary now, though.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 04:07:52 pm
What is the point of giving 3 bonus points to the team that wins the grand slam? How will that affect the final table?

Just thought this through a bit. With the other bonus points it would be possible, but unlikely, for a team to win the Grand Slam but not win the Championship!  ;D
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 04:15:35 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Marco Stefano on 04 February, 2017, 04:22:12 pm
Stats were with Ireland, score with Scotland. Close game.

Radio commentary on in the kitchen as we were in and out whilst cooking; one play was described as 'a bollocking run'.  Er... not quite. ;D
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 04:37:26 pm
Did I hear John Fecking-Inverdale talking about the final fixture between Ireland and England being a Grand Slam showdown?

Not now it isn't, dick-features.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: pcolbeck on 04 February, 2017, 05:15:40 pm
To be fair I think he was insinuating that before today everyone thought it was likely to be a Grand Slam showdown, he said the price of tickets will have dropped now.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 05:27:19 pm
To be fair I think he was insinuating that before today everyone thought it was likely to be a Grand Slam showdown, he said the price of tickets will have dropped now.
I didn't. If you do an accumulator on the bookies' odds of both Ireland and England winning all 4 matches leading up to the last one, I think you will find that for that to be the showdown would be relatively unlikely.

The comment I half-heard was before the Scotland-Ireland match started - I was loading the dishwasher at the time and couldn't be arsed to rewind.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 05:53:13 pm
Sounds as though the pundits aren't impressed with England v France.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 04 February, 2017, 06:16:14 pm
Was that last French pass for the try a smidge forward?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 06:34:21 pm
Was that last French pass for the try a smidge forward?

Dunno. I was in Waitrose.  :)
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 06:35:30 pm
A thought: when T. May triggers Art 50, will we leave the 6 nations?  :P
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 06:39:59 pm
Is this England match not on the telly then??

Edit: Bloody hell! When did ITV start covering 6 Nations rugby?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 04 February, 2017, 07:00:34 pm
A win's a win for a' that but England are going to have to pull their fingers out.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Steph on 04 February, 2017, 08:06:07 pm
Commentator makes remark about the win making the game beautiful.
Eddy Jones: No, it was still ugly, mate, but the result was beautiful.

Wows, rugby's been going to ITV for ages, at least where the mercenary English are concerned.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: mcshroom on 04 February, 2017, 08:18:37 pm
The mercenary Welsh will be on ITV tomorrow :demon:
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 04 February, 2017, 08:28:17 pm
Is it a knock-on if it comes off the player's chest?

*googles*

Quote
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

So, in my book, that was a bad decision by the referee.

As an ex-referee - chest = no knock on, fingertip to shoulder = knock on.

Not always easy to see either direction or body part at speed or distance.  I refused to give a knock on once from a long kick ahead, not because it didn't come off the hands, but because I couldn't tell if it had gone forwards or sideways.  No official touch judges to ask.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 February, 2017, 08:41:14 pm
Commentator makes remark about the win making the game beautiful.
Eddy Jones: No, it was still ugly, mate, but the result was beautiful.

Wows, rugby's been going to ITV for ages, at least where the mercenary English are concerned.

But the Six Nations? I don't recall that being on ITV before.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: mcshroom on 04 February, 2017, 08:47:49 pm
Commentator makes remark about the win making the game beautiful.
Eddy Jones: No, it was still ugly, mate, but the result was beautiful.

Wows, rugby's been going to ITV for ages, at least where the mercenary English are concerned.

But the Six Nations? I don't recall that being on ITV before.

I think it's new this year. They are sharing with the BBC as they normally do with the world cup, the Scotland-Ireland match was on BBC earlier. I would imagine it's one of the effects of the cuts the government have made to the BBC's budget.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 04 February, 2017, 09:12:00 pm
The mercenary Welsh will be on ITV tomorrow :demon:

Crikey!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Marco Stefano on 04 February, 2017, 09:46:16 pm
France & England's women at Twickenham mirrored the men; first half was all France (very good ball carrying & scrummaging, poor tackling from England), second half was all England, but could have been better if running straighter & giving more room out wide. French No. 8 scarily like a cycling track sprinter, hugely powerful glutes & thighs, part of the scrum domination. A couple of Ms Marco's Hartpury compatriots came on late in the game to a round of applause from the sofa.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: madcow on 04 February, 2017, 10:19:42 pm
On the other hand, this is the first time for several years that I have not bought any tickets for Murrayfield, so they are bound to win all their home games.

Not a bad start.The pundits were expecting an easy Irish victory.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: andyoxon on 05 February, 2017, 08:55:58 am
The changes Eddie made in 2nd half did the trick - at least 'beautiful points' are in the bag, and a record breaking run.  See what happens next w/e.  Shame not to have BillyV for the whole 6Nats.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: mattc on 05 February, 2017, 09:55:14 am
Did I hear John Fecking-Inverdale talking about the final fixture between Ireland and England being a Grand Slam showdown?

Not now it isn't, dick-features.
That seems like rather inappropriate language to describe a sports presenter who is merely commenting on predicted outcomes for the tournament. This is what presenters do.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: firedfromthecircus on 05 February, 2017, 11:05:30 am
Did I hear John Fecking-Inverdale talking about the final fixture between Ireland and England being a Grand Slam showdown?

Not now it isn't, dick-features.
That seems like rather inappropriate language to describe a sports presenter who is merely commenting on predicted outcomes for the tournament. This is what presenters do.

But John Inverdale isn't a sports presenter. He is a dick features! Ask anyone.

He sometimes pretends to be a sports presenter but not many are fooled.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Peter on 05 February, 2017, 11:09:17 am
Once again, England have effortlessly won the competition for the worst kit.  Scotland occasionally give them a run for their money, but not this time.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 05 February, 2017, 11:30:40 am
Slightly off topic, but I'm currently listening to Nigel Owens on Desert Island Disks.
On R4 right now.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 05 February, 2017, 02:42:11 pm
Hipster beards are clearly last year's thing among international rugbyists but Italy are probably doomed for having at least three man-buns in their squad.  One of which is sported by their token hipster beardie.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 05 February, 2017, 03:02:04 pm
Currently eating free half time sodidge and chips.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 05 February, 2017, 03:39:05 pm
Lovely tyop on the Graun website: "Liam Willaism". At least it wasn't a Williasm.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 05 February, 2017, 04:05:35 pm
Lovely tyop on the Graun website: "Liam Willaism". At least it wasn't a Williasm.

 ;D
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: LEE on 05 February, 2017, 06:52:55 pm
A Facebook Meme...

WATERFORD barman James Jones has warned today that fat guys who played rugby once in college will more than likely talk absolute shit for the next six weeks due to the televising of the Six Nations.

The 37-year-old bar manager stated that hundreds of over-weight men wearing tight fitting rugby jerseys with collars erect are due to flood city bars and clubs across the country over the duration of the championship, which kicks off this Friday.
 
“I tried to get a few weeks off work, but then I realised this crap was on,” he said. “Don’t get me wrong, I like rugby. It’s just the fat morons who shout at the screen that wreck my head. Most of whom will drink only ‘Hino’ or Guinness, cause well, that’s what they’re meant to drink.”

Mr. Jones added that most of the rugby fans he has encountered have always the same old rugby story to tell.

“Christ, if I hear one more school or college rugby story I’ll shoot myself,” he explained. “It always starts the same: ‘When I was playing for the school I was positioned.. bla-bla-fucking-blah.

“Then it usually ends with the guy, who had it all, in tears telling everyone about his horrific knee injury that ‘ruined his career’, which obviously explains why he’s such a fat cunt now drinking Heineken at the bar.

“It’s the incessant shouting at the TV that really cramps my balls. Seriously, shouting drunk at a TV in a pub miles and miles away from the game is not going to change anything. It’s like they’re all trying to out-shout one another. Who can say random sports shit the loudest?”

“Pass it! He should have ran with it, stick it up his hole!”

The father-of-two also warned fellow bar staff to be extra careful when pulling a pint of Guinness as rugby fans are renowned pint connoisseur’s.

He concluded: “I urge pint pullers across the country to put that extra effort in when pouring the black stuff as these guys are professionals – not only on the game itself – but also on how to pour a pint of Guinness. They know more than you do about it.

The Six Nations will start on the 6th of Feb and will run over six weeks to the 21st of March.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Marco Stefano on 11 February, 2017, 02:32:02 pm
For those of you not in the know, Wales vs England U20s was on the red button on BBC last night (Scrum V); I assume more Wales U20 games will be on there too. Good game, Wales up at HT through clever tactics, England came through in the second half.

Just watched the Wales vs England women, a bit of a mismatch at 0-63 but some skillful play to do it. Not sure what home opportunities Welsh clubs have during the year, whereas English top clubs are at Premiership & cup matches each weekend. And some of them are semi pro... Sure Wales can improve, but money injection probably needed - seems the way things are going.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 11 February, 2017, 04:05:41 pm
Missed the first hour of Italy-Ireland chiz but it seems to have been a bit one-sided.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 11 February, 2017, 06:43:45 pm
Well, there you go. England win the match on a Welsh error.  Not a happy pub atm.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 11 February, 2017, 07:01:18 pm
"Feed me 'til I sing no more"

That was a tough match and a draw would have been fair.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: andyoxon on 11 February, 2017, 07:03:37 pm
Good win.  :thumbsup:  Always going to be tense. 

3 to go...

Quote
1 New Zealand 18 (15 Aug 2015 - 22 Oct 2016)

2= New Zealand 17 (18 Sep 1965 - 14 Jun 1969)

2= South Africa 17 (23 Aug 1997 - 28 Nov 1998)

2= New Zealand 17 (8 Jun 2013 - 21 Jun 2014)

5= England 16 (10 Oct 2015 - )

5= New Zealand 16 (9 Sep 2011 - 6 Oct 2012)

7= South Africa 15 (8 Oct 1994 - 2 Jul 1996)

7= New Zealand 15 (13 Aug 2005 - 26 Aug 2006)

7= New Zealand 15 (19 Sep 2009 - 11 Sep 2010)

10 England 14 (23 Mar 2002 - 23 Aug 2003)

France:Scotland will be interesting tomorrow.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 12 February, 2017, 08:40:17 am
Very lucky win I thought, let's hope England don't start relying on the narrow win when they come up against NZ.

I thought it was very scrappy all round, but where the matches I used to referee could be scrappy due to low skill levels, this was scrappy due to being played right on the edge. Made for a nailbiting game to watch though.

Any idea whether Moriarty will be cited for that very late tackle on Farrell?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: andyoxon on 12 February, 2017, 08:50:51 am
Nah, England made their own luck*...   ;)  Apparently they don't play NZ until 2018... 

Won't be too long before the Vunipola bros are back.

* though, if Wales hadn't turned down a chance at goal for those two penalties in 1st half...

Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 12 February, 2017, 10:08:01 am
Surprised so few people appeared to have watched it. Mind you, I thought the direction was poor. Far too many shots of the ball being retrieved from a tangle of legs, with no context - so you had no feeling for what might happen next. Also too many cuts to cameras when the operator hadn't quite set up the shot, so you got a moving or zooming camera, or someone in the way. Very distracting.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: firedfromthecircus on 12 February, 2017, 12:59:59 pm
Nah, England made their own luck*...   ;)

There is a very strong inclination for me to disagree with you on that point!

However, winning teams have a habit of winning. It doesn't matter if they scraped through with a single score at the end or romped it. Right now, England are a winning team.

Will they get the three wins needed for the record? The next two should be meat and drink, but I think they will need to up their game for the third. Interesting hearing Rory Best talk about the Scotland defeat. They were just caught napping. I can't see that happening at home with a chance to stop England getting a record!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: andyoxon on 12 February, 2017, 01:30:38 pm
Quote
Head coach Eddie Jones said England had used up all of their "get-out-of-jail-free cards"
BBC

tbf, probably a fine line beween being 'lucky', and using 'get out of jail free cards'... 
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 12 February, 2017, 02:40:11 pm
Nah, England made their own luck*...   ;)

There is a very strong inclination for me to disagree with you on that point!

However, winning teams have a habit of winning. It doesn't matter if they scraped through with a single score at the end or romped it. Right now, England are a winning team.

Will they get the three wins needed for the record? The next two should be meat and drink, but I think they will need to up their game for the third. Interesting hearing Rory Best talk about the Scotland defeat. They were just caught napping. I can't see that happening at home with a chance to stop England getting a record!

I'm with you there, doesn't matter how we won, but I don't want to be going that close again.  There must be, however much the professional support teams try to prevent it, an element of invincibility in the eyes of the teams playing them at the moment i.e. they've won 16 in a row, that can't be entirely by chance, we have to play better than we can really hope to do...


Hopefully Scotland about to repeat what they did last week, vs Aus, SA etc
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 12 February, 2017, 03:43:33 pm
Looks like it could be the end of this year's 6 nations for Laidlaw.  That will be a real bugger for Scotland.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 12 February, 2017, 05:03:23 pm
Paris littered with b0rked Scotsmen; cracking game though.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 12 February, 2017, 11:29:00 pm
Hmmm, was looking good for a while.

Laidlaw will definitely be missed
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 25 February, 2017, 04:13:33 pm
Hey, this is such fun!!!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 25 February, 2017, 04:16:14 pm
...and hopefully no bonus point for the losers.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 25 February, 2017, 04:19:39 pm
Dunno what the Jocks had in their half-time cocoa but it seems to have been effective.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: andyoxon on 25 February, 2017, 10:48:42 pm
Good win for Scotland!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 26 February, 2017, 03:11:25 am
Looks like it could be the end of this year's 6 nations for Laidlaw.  That will be a real bugger for Scotland.

Indeed, but they worked round it. In a stunning way.

Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: T42 on 26 February, 2017, 08:35:06 am
Well, we won. :D  Well no, actually, we lost.  :'(

Ireland v France is such sweet sorrow.  :-\
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 26 February, 2017, 03:53:20 pm
Woss goin on at Twickers then?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 26 February, 2017, 03:56:21 pm
Italy are being buried by a record score1, just as the pundits forecast.

I-TA-LIA!  I-TA-LIA!

1: Lie.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 26 February, 2017, 03:57:39 pm
"I'm a referee.   Not a coach."

 ;D
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 26 February, 2017, 04:00:07 pm
Bof, you Eengleesh!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: spesh on 26 February, 2017, 05:19:34 pm
A game of two halves if ever there was one.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: madcow on 26 February, 2017, 11:11:27 pm
On the other hand, this is the first time for several years that I have not bought any tickets for Murrayfield, so they are bound to win all their home games.

Can you see a pattern emerging?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 27 February, 2017, 01:57:49 am
Woss goin on at Twickers then?

They were emulating the Scots.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: frankly frankie on 27 February, 2017, 10:23:24 am
Great entertainment, I thought.  I nearly didn't watch, because watching a predictable drubbing is never pleasant, regardless of who is playing who.
Well done to Italy for introducing chaos theory into rugby.  England cluelessness in the face of the unexpected was just amazing, they are so over-coached and incapable of thinking for themselves.  Sir Clive saying from the pundit's chair that his sides, in similar circumstances, would feign an injury so that they could get coaching instructions out to the players! 
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 27 February, 2017, 02:18:39 pm
Should have been simple really, no offside line, use your back row and front row to pick and go repeatedly until the gap appears, then send through the fast boys.  No need to ruck if the opposition don't want to play
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 27 February, 2017, 02:34:24 pm
Should have been simple really, no offside line, use your back row and front row to pick and go repeatedly until the gap appears, then send through the fast boys.  No need to ruck if the opposition don't want to play

I was thinking much the same thing. If Italy had tried that tactic against New Zealand, say, they would have been massacred. England showed a lack of imagination in dealing with it, sticking too rigidly to the gameplan rather than using their instinct.

They worked it out eventually though.

Final score flatters England.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 27 February, 2017, 04:18:25 pm
Should have been simple really, no offside line, use your back row and front row to pick and go repeatedly until the gap appears, then send through the fast boys.  No need to ruck if the opposition don't want to play

I was thinking much the same thing. If Italy had tried that tactic against New Zealand, say, they would have been massacred. England showed a lack of imagination in dealing with it, sticking too rigidly to the gameplan rather than using their instinct.

They worked it out eventually though.

Final score flatters England.

Agreed.

I seem to remember a spate of the same tactic in schoolboy rugby back when I was a referee, but it didn't last long.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 27 February, 2017, 04:57:14 pm
They did show a couple of times that Italy are very vulnerable if you just run at them. As did Ireland the other week.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: mattc on 27 February, 2017, 05:56:46 pm
Bit harsh to say England couldn't think on their feet - does anyone think the Italian players just came up with that tactic out on the pitch??
I don't see any armchair expert posts on here written before the end of the 1st half  ;D

It took them a while, but England sussed it out and went on to score more tries and goals. Hence the scoreline.

But even as an England supporter, I loved seeing them scratching their heads, and deservedly losing the 1st half to a clever and bold strategy. I did start doing the calculation, of "What if England beat everyone except Italy ... ?

Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 27 February, 2017, 06:24:11 pm
Bit harsh to say England couldn't think on their feet - does anyone think the Italian players just came up with that tactic out on the pitch??

You could tell from the way the referee dealt with it that the Italy coach had discussed it with him before the game, but even he seemed confused at times.

Quote
But even as an England supporter, I loved seeing them scratching their heads, and deservedly losing the 1st half to a clever and bold strategy. I did start doing the calculation, of "What if England beat everyone except Italy ... ?

It made the first half interesting but as the second half went on, the limitations of the Italy gameplan were clearly exposed.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 27 February, 2017, 07:57:58 pm
I like Eddie Jones's take on it - "Trevor Chappell rugby" (Bodyline was the analogy that occurred to me while watching, but the underarm bowling comparison is far more accurate - at least Bodyline was a form of attack rather than simply disruptive):

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/six-nations-england-coach-eddie-jones-threatens-to-retire-from-rugby-after-launching-stinging-attack-a7600721.html

The report is a bit sensationalist - he doesn't look "seething" to me.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 27 February, 2017, 08:37:33 pm
Mr Jones did appear to be more than a little cheesed off, but Lewis Moody seems to have come out in favour of the Italians for daring to try something different.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Psychler on 27 February, 2017, 09:03:28 pm
I don't think Mr Poite helped England by saying that he would call "ruck" or "tackle only" and then not calling anything for much of the time.  On several occasions he called "ruck" after the ball had been moved away. 

His interpretation of the ruck laws wasn't consistent.  His reply to Haskell that he was a referee not a coach wasn't helpful, Haskell was asking for clarification of his interpretation of the ruck law not for coaching advice.  There were occasions when Italians were originally in contact over the ball [ie creating the ruck and the associated offside lines] but then pulled out only for the referee to call "tackle only".  His comment that they had to be "genuinely in contact" was also confusing, it suggested that having hands on another player was not contact, leading to the discussion about "1 metre or 2 metres" from the scrum half, tackle, ruck etc.   

This tactic may have helped Italy keep the score down but it also contributed to one of the worst halves of rugby I've ever seen.  England's main problem, however, was not dealing with the ruck/tackle situation, it was the amount of mistakes and poor decisions made around the pitch.  They gave away too many penalties [especially in the first half] and both Italian tries were allowed by England mistakes or missed tackles.  The ruck/tackle tactic was a distraction that in the end didn't help Italy but also caused very little rugby to be played.

I'm with Eddie Jones on this, that wasn't rugby [even if perfectly legal] and I'm sure that most of the people watching at Twickenham would agree.  I'm pretty sure that this tactic was a one off from the Italians [specially as Brendan Venter is going back to South Africa], but if they continue with it I'm sure that the powers that run the Six Nations will introduce relegation, as has been touted, and that we'll be waving goodbye to the Azzuri.  The Six Nations has become a vibrant, spectacular tournament, with all the Unions earning vast amounts of money from it.  They are not going to allow it to return to the dirge of ten man rugby.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 27 February, 2017, 09:21:54 pm
you always play to the referee, even if he is inconsistent.

With lack of clarity I maintain "pick and go" as the best approach.

TBH I saw a lot of Italian contact in the tackle and then retreat before the ruck could form, but at that level it's so fast that the distinctions become somewhat subjective, hence "play the referee".
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: firedfromthecircus on 28 February, 2017, 01:36:02 pm
I don't see a problem in Italy not committing to the ruck. The problem is that it took England so long to realise that they could go through the middle if no-one is blocking the way. The rigid stupidity of professional rugby players is the problem.
A couple of seasons ago there was a little bout of teams not committing to the maul. Ireland in particular if I remember correctly. So the attacking team would have players obstructing when they formed the traditional maul as there was no opposition. Works for as long as teams don't know how to play against it, but as soon as they suss they can run right through the space created by the defenders avoiding the maul it's effectiveness as a tactic is over. Haven't seen it happen much recently.
If Eddie Jones wants to get angry about something it should be the scrums. They are a complete and utter joke now at international level. I haven't watched club rugby for some time so I would be interested to hear from those that do if they manage to scrummage. The IRB need to sort it out. It's a farce!  >:(
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 28 February, 2017, 02:16:40 pm
The problem is that it took England so long to realise that they could go through the middle if no-one is blocking the way. The rigid stupidity of professional rugby players is the problem.

There was a perfect example of this early on in the game when Hughes received a high ball deep in England territory and was immediately hauled to the ground by Parisse. But Parisse almost instantly let go of him and within a moment, Italy players were swarming on all sides.

If Hughes had his wits about him, he could have got straight to his feet with the ball and run through the gaping hole Italy had left in their defensive line. Instead, his team-mates piled on top of him to form the ruck, killing off the attacking opportunity.

You can forgive them being caught unawares by the tactic early on, but it took them far too long to twig.

Quote
If Eddie Jones wants to get angry about something it should be the scrums.

One thing I remember from playing rugby at school is that the ball is supposed to be put into the scrum straight...   ::-)
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Marco Stefano on 28 February, 2017, 07:11:52 pm
We were watching with recognition - this happened to Ms Marco 3 weeks ago in a women's Prem match. She was flummoxed by an oppo flanker (ironically, part of the England setup) standing between her and the 10, repeatedly shouting 'tackle only, Sir!' from a couple of metres away.

As I understand it, from that position the flanker is not allowed to tackle the player playing the ball from the previous tackle, to do that she would have to come from behind the back foot of the tackle (over to ElyDave for clarification), but she can stand where she likes on the pitch. I think the tackled player or the next player in is in the best position to play the ball and run straight, which England got the hang of eventually...

Looking at the weekend's game, I don't think any Italian player would be in a ruck if they just had a hand on an England shoulder next to the tackle, but if they go in to try and ruck the ball against English competition and come out again, I think a ruck was formed, whether they stay in it or not (their choice). I don't see a problem with the tactic, but I concede that the first half was one for the IRB law nerds (like me, who found it fascinating). I know the refs try and make the game flow by calling 'tackle only', 'ruck', etc. but I wonder what would happen if they didn't, and make the players think about it a bit more? Would it just be stilted?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Psychler on 28 February, 2017, 09:43:26 pm
I know the refs try and make the game flow by calling 'tackle only', 'ruck', etc. but I wonder what would happen if they didn't, and make the players think about it a bit more? Would it just be stilted?

That was part of England's problem.  The ref said to Hartley and Haskell that he would call "ruck" or "tackle" but then didn't for most of the breakdowns.  I think he often struggled to make a decision on which it was in time to give a call.  On a couple of occasions he called "ruck" when the ball had already reached the fly half's hands.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 28 February, 2017, 11:35:57 pm
I know the refs try and make the game flow by calling 'tackle only', 'ruck', etc. but I wonder what would happen if they didn't, and make the players think about it a bit more? Would it just be stilted?

That was part of England's problem.  The ref said to Hartley and Haskell that he would call "ruck" or "tackle" but then didn't for most of the breakdowns.  I think he often struggled to make a decision on which it was in time to give a call.  On a couple of occasions he called "ruck" when the ball had already reached the fly half's hands.

That's a symptom of what I said, it moves so bloody fast these days. I remember stepping up two levels on one occasion to level five and it was a huge difference in pace, and required speed of thinking. But you have to remember these refs are professionals with huge support, they do this every week if not twice a week, fitness coaching, psychology etc.

They should be at least as good as the players they referee, that was always my mantra
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: matthew on 01 March, 2017, 11:07:23 am
Do Google know something we don't yet.

Todays google doodle for St Davids day is a welsh wooden spoon  :demon:
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 09 March, 2017, 05:34:15 pm
I'm gonna miss Saturday's games.  >:(

I have to go and drink gin instead     ;D
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: mattc on 10 March, 2017, 07:30:13 pm
Friday night matches anyone?

Seems like England are sticking to their guns, but the guy at 6 Nations plc (c) said this:

“Would I like more Fridays? Yes. Will I get them? Probably in time, but it will take time” said Feehan. “The other unions for one reason or another have had difficulties with the Friday night. The French tend to like it, the Welsh put up with it and the rest don’t want it at the moment but that could change in time. You keep pushing the door and eventually the door will open.”

He's not lacking in confidence, is he??
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: andyoxon on 10 March, 2017, 08:30:18 pm
North!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 10 March, 2017, 08:48:09 pm
Good game so far
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 10 March, 2017, 09:03:53 pm
Man on telly said before the kickoff that all bar one of the Friday night matches thus far have been played in Cardiff so saying the Welsh "put up with it" sounds a tad dubious.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: andyoxon on 10 March, 2017, 09:13:08 pm
North!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 10 March, 2017, 09:19:39 pm
Apparently we want Wales to win.


This is going to be a difficult half...
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 March, 2017, 09:57:22 pm
I'm sure you don't, Jaded!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 10 March, 2017, 10:01:33 pm
Great game.  Both teams playing for a bonus point in the last seconds.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 10 March, 2017, 11:39:25 pm
The Sexton yellow was the turning point, and absolutely right to give it.  Ireland looked sharp until then.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: T42 on 11 March, 2017, 10:47:26 am
Oh well.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 11 March, 2017, 12:53:48 pm
Slightly OT, but...

Heard someone on the radio the other day complaining about England fans singing Swing Low - apparently it's disrespectful. Can't say I've ever really thought about it but I suppose I can see why some might be upset by a bunch of predominantly upper-middle-class, predominantly white, predominantly male rugby fans appropriating a song that's actually the lament of slaves longing for the release of death - I guess it's a question of perspective. However, I can't help feeling they are several years too late shutting that particular stable door.

Got me wondering though - why exactly do England fans sing Swing Low? How, where and when did it start? I can understand Liverpool fans singing YNWA but there doesn't seem to be any obvious connection between England rugby and Swing Low.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 11 March, 2017, 01:00:02 pm
Perhaps death would be a welcome relief as an alternative to supporting England?  :demon:
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 11 March, 2017, 01:04:47 pm
It would certainly be a relief from being stuck in a room with a bunch of drunk England rugby fans.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 11 March, 2017, 01:37:04 pm
The article I read said that it started in the 1980's. THat's wrong - I heard it in the mid to late 70's.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 11 March, 2017, 01:46:06 pm
It's a traditional Rugby song, the actions being the obscene bit. Listed on an LP in 1964. https://www.discogs.com/The-Jock-Strapp-Ensemble-Why-Was-He-Born-So-Beautiful-And-Other-Traditional-Rugby-Songs/release/4019335

As the words are acceptable, and it's suitable for community singing, it seems to have stuck. Things could be a lot worse.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 11 March, 2017, 02:02:54 pm
The article I read said that it started in the 1980's. THat's wrong - I heard it in the mid to late 70's.

I read that too but knew it didn't sound right.

It's a traditional Rugby song, the actions being the obscene bit.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the actions. But having done a bit more googling, I see they date back a lot further even than the 1960s and the singing the song with the actions seems to have military associations too - it's certainly plausible that it made the transition to rugby from the armed forces.

In any case, the fact that it's on an album of traditional rugby songs released in 1964 does rather debunk the 1988 myth! Good find.

I've never really joined in with the singing - I have a natural aversion to mass chanting/clapping on the principle of just because everyone else is doing it, that doesn't make it right. I now feel vindicated!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: rr on 11 March, 2017, 02:45:29 pm
Certainly it was sung with actions at bar nights when Mr Larrington and I were PSOs in the early 80s.
I think it's premenance among English rugby fans post dates this.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 11 March, 2017, 04:06:57 pm
Meanwhile the Scots may account themselves a little fortunate not to have to play 77 minutes with fourteen men.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 11 March, 2017, 05:36:56 pm
You mean they got to that score with 15 Scotsmen on the field?  :o

(I just got in from a bike ride so haven't been following the game).
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 11 March, 2017, 06:17:21 pm
Quite a number of Scotsmen got broken by running into immovable objects in white shirts.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: citoyen on 11 March, 2017, 06:25:46 pm
The remains of the Scottish team are being sent off to the haggis factory even as we speak.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: mattc on 12 March, 2017, 09:55:12 am
Googling finds this (in the New York Times):
Quote
English fans first sang the song on a large scale at Twickenham Stadium on March 19, 1988, as England recorded a memorable comeback victory over Ireland. Multiple people and groups since then have claimed responsibility for starting the chant.

The motivation is a matter of some intrigue. Over the years, English newspaper articles mentioning the chant’s genesis that day matter-of-factly tied its emergence to the race of Chris Oti, who was the first black player to represent England’s rugby team in almost a century, and who played a starring role in that game.
My bold - this seems to be where the 1988 origin story comes from.


I've never really joined in with the singing - I have a natural aversion to mass chanting/clapping on the principle of just because everyone else is doing it, that doesn't make it right. I now feel vindicated!
There's no obligation for things like this - mass chanting is for pleasure, not "because everyone else is doing it". Some don't enjoy it, in which case don't do it :)

If you want to make a statement of non-conformism, sing this version: (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2-qfS19DSAhWIAxoKHd3dDdkQyCkIHzAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4T-gBon3tCY&usg=AFQjCNFoLbOvNJZWqVkolr-MywOWldRayg)


Personally I like the singing, but always found the hand-gestures a bit childish.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: SteveC on 12 March, 2017, 03:30:28 pm
Certainly it was sung with actions at bar nights when Mr Larrington and I were PSOs in the early 80s.
I think it's premenance among English rugby fans post dates this.
I first met the actions in my first year at university when I ended up on a corridor with half the rugby team. That was '77 and it was obviously not new then.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: simonp on 12 March, 2017, 05:29:15 pm
That start from Scotland was a bit of a horror show. If they'd kept it tight then scoring 21 points would have been useful.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 12 March, 2017, 08:33:10 pm
Italy scored the first try and the last try. It's probably as well to gloss over what happened in the intervening 75 minutes...
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 18 March, 2017, 12:29:07 pm
Come on Scotland.  A bonus point needed and then depending on results later today, second place could be yours.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 18 March, 2017, 12:36:04 pm
Somehow I don't see a repeat of that wonderful occasion against Scotlanshire when Italy ran in three tries in the first ten minutes :'(
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: mattc on 18 March, 2017, 12:36:51 pm
[Scotland 3:0!]

I think 2nd place is of less importance than staying in Pool B for the World Cup draw. It's all very tight in the rankings; I think any of Wales/Ireland/Scotland can drop into "group-of-Death" territory today.

So everyone has something to play for  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 18 March, 2017, 01:19:41 pm
Scotland seem to be well placed. Good wins for Wales and Ireland today should make second place interesting...
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 18 March, 2017, 02:33:17 pm
And the winner of the Least Appropriate Music To Use At A Major Sporting Event goes to the clown who thought Iggy's "Lust For Life" was somehow suitable to pipe the teams off at half-time at Murrayfield.

In other news: Eddie Butler!  STFU!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 18 March, 2017, 04:13:15 pm
Apparently we want Wales to win.


This is going to be a difficult half...
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 18 March, 2017, 05:05:37 pm
You weren't wrong there!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 18 March, 2017, 05:08:45 pm
what a bizarre ending.  Nothing wrong with the refereeing, but to have someone go in the bin at 82 mins and still come back on - wow!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 18 March, 2017, 06:29:15 pm
Why was the Welsh match extended for so long? (I just came in from a bike ride...)
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Basil on 18 March, 2017, 06:35:41 pm
Come on Scotland.  A bonus point needed and then depending on results later today, second place could be yours.

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 18 March, 2017, 06:56:36 pm
Well done Ireland!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Mr Larrington on 18 March, 2017, 06:58:32 pm
Why was the Welsh match extended for so long? (I just came in from a bike ride...)

French scrum on the Welsh five-metre line.  Wales concede penalty.  France take the option of a scrum.  Rinse and repeat.

Deserved win for Ireland.  They were, well, better.  Chiz.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Jaded on 18 March, 2017, 07:01:00 pm
Scotland 4th. Boo.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 18 March, 2017, 07:50:21 pm
yep, I thought we might make it until about 5 minutes to go
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: T42 on 19 March, 2017, 08:22:13 am
Hey hey hey, what a day! Ireland beat England, France beat Wales. :D :D :D

Particularly pleasing because the French commentators were all "if we beat Wales we end up second", as if England beating Ireland was a foregone conclusion. Well, I suppose it was that, for more than one.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: pcolbeck on 19 March, 2017, 09:09:26 am
Very dodgy replacement by the French due to alledged head injury in that the end of the France/Wales game.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: T42 on 19 March, 2017, 09:15:26 am
Yes, but ref allowed it and Alun Wyn Jones didn't make any adverse remarks.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Redjeep! on 19 March, 2017, 09:18:51 am
Hey hey hey, what a day! Ireland beat England, France beat Wales. :D :D :D

Particularly pleasing because the French commentators were all "if we beat Wales we end up second", as if England beating Ireland was a foregone conclusion. Well, I suppose it was that, for more than one.

Strange that anybody who makes a living commentating on rugby would have an opinion that the Ireland/ England game was a foregone conclusion. I can't imagine many other people would have thought that it was.

Ireland deserved the win.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: T42 on 19 March, 2017, 09:29:33 am
Agreed, but that's the way they were, on France Info at least.  Afterwards they were happy to have a place on the podium.  That's a bit like me being happy in coming 7th in the 1967 Scottish Universities Epée championship: there were 8 entries.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: Wowbagger on 19 March, 2017, 10:36:14 am
It's sports commentators' jobs to presents sports fixtures as foregone conclusions. Then, if anything else happens (it frequently does) they can say how incredible it was and sell more papers/attract more clicks/get more viewers. I posted something about this when Inverdale was touting yesterday's Ireland-England game as a "grand slam showdown" - by which he meant that both Ireland and England would be on 100% when the match kicked off.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: ElyDave on 19 March, 2017, 11:39:27 am
Yes, but ref allowed it and Alun Wyn Jones didn't make any adverse remarks.

Remarks were made by one of the Welsh props "we're happy whatever, just get on with it"
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: madcow on 20 March, 2017, 09:58:54 pm
It's sports commentators' jobs to presents sports fixtures as foregone conclusions. Then, if anything else happens (it frequently does) they can say how incredible it was and sell more papers/attract more clicks/get more viewers. I posted something about this when Inverdale was touting yesterday's Ireland-England game as a "grand slam showdown" - by which he meant that both Ireland and England would be on 100% when the match kicked off.

Sir Clive Woodward in Saturday's Daily Mail "England will slam Ireland".
Sir Clive Woodward in Mail on Sunday "I said at the start of this tournament that England would be champions but no Grand Slam"
Funnily enough, they didn't have space to quote him from the previous day.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2017
Post by: pcolbeck on 21 March, 2017, 10:20:23 am
Yes, but ref allowed it and Alun Wyn Jones didn't make any adverse remarks.

Remarks were made by one of the Welsh props "we're happy whatever, just get on with it"

They weren't happy though they were livid with the situation. They were also annoyed by the stalling hence the "just get on with it".