Author Topic: Stubourn Philips Screws  (Read 5684 times)

quixoticgeek

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Stubourn Philips Screws
« on: 20 July, 2017, 08:45:04 pm »

I've got a pair of M505 pedals, and a pair of M324 pedals, which have the same spd mechanism. The M324 is starting to rust, so I thought I'd take off the bit thats rusting, and put a new bit on (Y41C98011). Of the 4 pedals I've tried to take this part off of, I can only get both the screws cleanly out on one. On one of the M324's I'm on the verge of rounding the screw head off completely due to the philips caming out. And I don't want to risk doing any further damage to the 505's having cammed out on one screw on each side. Strangely on each pedal one comes out much easier than the other, and it doesn't follow a pattern with front or rear being the tougher to do.

Is there a way i can get these screw out without risking further rounding off of the head? Is there a trick I'm missing.

J
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quixoticgeek

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #1 on: 20 July, 2017, 08:58:41 pm »

If it's any use, I took photos of the screws that are caming out.





I tried soaking the screw area in WD40...

J
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #2 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:04:02 pm »
Are these actually Phillips head screws or JIS? The shape of the tips are quite different.
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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #3 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:06:19 pm »
Impact driver with a secure way of holding the pedal and a sharp clout with a hammer ?

quixoticgeek

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #4 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:10:30 pm »
Are these actually Phillips head screws or JIS? The shape of the tips are quite different.

There is no markings to suggest that it is JIS (Wikipedia suggests there should be a dot or x marking it as such).

Impact driver with a secure way of holding the pedal and a sharp clout with a hammer ?


Ooh, that may work, wonder where I might find one of those...

J
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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #5 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:17:47 pm »
This is useful if, like me you have never heard of JIS screw heads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #6 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:20:43 pm »
This is useful if, like me you have never heard of JIS screw heads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

yep, got that open now, there's a lot of different ways to cap a screw...

J
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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #7 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:22:10 pm »

I've got a pair of M505 pedals, and a pair of M324 pedals, which have the same spd mechanism. The M324 is starting to rust, so I thought I'd take off the bit thats rusting, and put a new bit on (Y41C98011). Of the 4 pedals I've tried to take this part off of, I can only get both the screws cleanly out on one. On one of the M324's I'm on the verge of rounding the screw head off completely due to the philips caming out. And I don't want to risk doing any further damage to the 505's having cammed out on one screw on each side. Strangely on each pedal one comes out much easier than the other, and it doesn't follow a pattern with front or rear being the tougher to do.

Is there a way i can get these screw out without risking further rounding off of the head? Is there a trick I'm missing.

J

They look suspiciouisly like the Phillips because of the fact that the shoulders of the broach are not at right angles albeit there does appear to be the dimple that is typical on the head of a JIS screw.

Have you tried a selectin of bit/driver heads and then given the screw a really sharp impact with a dead-blow hammer whilst attemping a turn to undo it with the other hand - shocking a tight fixing will often work.
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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #8 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:27:19 pm »
Since I went to the garage to look at my M324 pedals you've had a few replied that mention JIS.  On domed screw heads there is often - but not always - a tiny dimple that indicates you have a JIS fastener.  There is no dimple or cross on my cleat screws, but it does look like we have JIS fasteners on those pedals. 


Is there a way i can get these screw out without risking further rounding off of the head? Is there a trick I'm missing.

J

If you're not in a hurry and you fancy having a bash Vessel make a JIS #2 impact driver that will sort you out.  Not cheap, but it does mean that if you just use it as a regular JIS #2 screwdriver you won't round out your derailleur limit screws either.  The non-impact driver will probably be okay, too. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vessel-Megadora-Impacta-P2x150-Screwdriver/dp/B003BGZ9CO

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #9 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:36:56 pm »
Since I went to the garage to look at my M324 pedals you've had a few replied that mention JIS.  On domed screw heads there is often - but not always - a tiny dimple that indicates you have a JIS fastener.  There is no dimple or cross on my cleat screws, but it does look like we have JIS fasteners on those pedals. 


Arse. I wonder if I can find a suitable matching phillips screw that I can put in instead...

Quote
If you're not in a hurry and you fancy having a bash Vessel make a JIS #2 impact driver that will sort you out.  Not cheap, but it does mean that if you just use it as a regular JIS #2 screwdriver you won't round out your derailleur limit screws either.  The non-impact driver will probably be okay, too. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vessel-Megadora-Impacta-P2x150-Screwdriver/dp/B003BGZ9CO

That particular one doesn't want to ship to the Netherlands (but to the UK is fine?!?) But one of the other sellers will ship to the Netherlands. I'm in no rush, it'll arrive in 2-5 weeks. I can wait til then. It seems like it's a useful tool to have around.

Thanks

J
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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #10 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:58:09 pm »
if they were my pedals I wouldn't give a toss if the binding parts started to go rusty; it makes absolutely no difference to the performance of the pedal. The worst rust occurs on unused pedalbindings that corrode where the plating has already worn off (which doesn't take long IME).

However what is important is that the springs are not allowed to go rusty; this can cause them to fail.

These screws are notorious for being right sods to undo; better that than they come loose though; I think they are factory fitted with threadlocking compound.  They are JIS type screws IIRC, and only a small subset of phillips #2 style screwdrivers will do.

My suggestion would be to

a) wire-brush the steel parts of the pedals to remove superficial corrosion
b) coat the springs and the undersides of the steel claw parts with waxoyl.
c) Run it in using a hairdryer to melt the waxoyl, so that all surfaces are nicely coated with a thin layer; it will run into all inaccessible places.
d) wipe the excess off the exposed surfaces of the pedal
e) Ride happy.
f) repeat as required eg at 18 month intervals.

If you do start removing parts from the pedals, it is essential to replace the screws with some threadlocking compound, else they will work loose in service.
You can buy the correct screws from shimano. IIRC they are a standard M5 thread, with a csk head form, but the head size is non-standard.

 You can make suitable screws using slotted head stainless csk M5 screws. The head may have to be machined down and the slot recut. I have an idea that the socket in a  torx spec screw may be deep enough that it will allow the head to be reduced in size whilst retaining the torx function, but I have not tried it.  XTR SPDs come with different (hex socket or torx, I forget which) headed screws, which also fit the other SPD pedals in the range.

hth

cheers

Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #11 on: 20 July, 2017, 10:32:15 pm »
I have a large drawer full of screwdrivers, screwdriver bits, impact drivers and the like.  It often takes a few tries to find a good fit into a screw head. 

Careful tapping with a ball-pein hammer can sometimes restore a gouged screw-head sufficiently well to remove it, but only if you then use the correct bit.  Body-weight on to the screwdriver helps no end.

Biggsy

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #12 on: 21 July, 2017, 01:50:41 pm »
Filing down the tip of a Phillips screwdriver can make it fit better.  Some are blunter than others to start with as well.  It may be too late for this to work with your screw, though.  It looks very knackered indeed.
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KM

Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #13 on: 21 July, 2017, 05:52:01 pm »
Filing down the tip of a Phillips screwdriver can make it fit better.  Some are blunter than others to start with as well. 

That's a popular workaround I've seen a lot online.




Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #14 on: 21 July, 2017, 07:22:14 pm »
this screw (from the OPs post above)


is a perfect example of a crosshead screw that is just about to fail by rounding out.  The slots are sufficiently mangled that there is going to be very little purchase, even if the correct tool is used.

I have occasionally succeeded in loosening such screws using an impact driver, but I reckon it is a 50:50 chance at best for that screw (and presumably others that look similar). 

As I mentioned above, given that the only reason for loosening these screw is to make the pedals (temporarily) look prettier, I'd probably not bother trying to unscrew them.  The pedals will look 100% better if they are cleaned and polished anyway, which again doesn't require any screw loosening.

BTW once the screws have rounded out, if you are still determined to remove them, I'd suggest a few blobs of MIG weld will a) give you something to swing on and b) the heat will help release the screws.

cheers

Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #15 on: 22 July, 2017, 10:18:38 am »
That last paragraph is all fine and dandy if you've got a MIG handy.

Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #16 on: 22 July, 2017, 12:37:41 pm »
That last paragraph is all fine and dandy if you've got a MIG handy.

most people (if they think hard enough) probably know of someone who has got one...?

cheers

Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #17 on: 22 July, 2017, 01:10:11 pm »
That last paragraph is all fine and dandy if you've got a MIG handy.

most people (if they think hard enough) probably know of someone who has got one...?

Not off-hand.

I'm sure that there are plenty ofa few MIG owners here, but the intersection of those who [I know to own a MIG¦I know well enough to ask for a favour¦are reasonably local to me] is nil.

The garage down the road from me will have one, but I'm not sure I'd be happy with my first contact with them being 'oh, can you stick a blob of MIG on this screw please?' - might be different if they'd been doing my MOTs and servicing for years.

Kim

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #18 on: 22 July, 2017, 01:25:22 pm »
That last paragraph is all fine and dandy if you've got a MIG handy.

most people (if they think hard enough) probably know of someone who has got one...?

Depends how old you are, I think.

Welding equipment is the sort of thing that's simply impractical for Generation Rent to own (let alone be able to use), other than in a work context.  It's luck of the draw whether you know anyone who works in a context that includes welding.

If I needed a blob of MIG on a screw, my best bet would be to ask on an internet cycle forum, which has a disproportionate number of mechanical fettlers.  And hardly any of those are local.

Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #19 on: 22 July, 2017, 02:00:21 pm »
re your local garage; no harm in asking?

Re MIG ownership practicalities; I do have quite a lot of welding kit these days but my first (and still to this day most-used/favourite) MIG set cost £35 used and I think I was up and welding for a net outlay of less than £60.  A hobby MIG takes up about two cubic feet of storage space and you don't need a workshop per se; it can be used out of doors provided it isn't actually raining and it isn't too breezy. [Over the years I have done most of the welding that I have done (which is lots and lots BTW) outdoors in fact, mainly because the workshop gets less messy that way.... :D]

So yes it isn't worth buying one just for getting the screws out of pedals.... :-[ but it may not be as impractical to own and use such a thing as one might think. It is certainly well worth asking friends, colleagues and neighbours if they know anyone who has one tucked away in the shed/garage.

cheers

Dave_C

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #20 on: 22 July, 2017, 03:42:10 pm »
Have you tried Aldi? They have, in their tools section bins, those reverse screw remover bits currently.

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quixoticgeek

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #21 on: 22 July, 2017, 04:50:51 pm »
Have you tried Aldi? They have, in their tools section bins, those reverse screw remover bits currently.


I'll see what the Aldi on Plein 40-45 has available, tho I don't hold out much hope...

J
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quixoticgeek

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #22 on: 22 July, 2017, 04:55:05 pm »
re your local garage; no harm in asking?

I'm not even sure where my local garage is, being that I've never owned a car, and well, in this part of town there's way more bike shops than there are garages...

Quote

Re MIG ownership practicalities; I do have quite a lot of welding kit these days but my first (and still to this day most-used/favourite) MIG set cost £35 used and I think I was up and welding for a net outlay of less than £60.  A hobby MIG takes up about two cubic feet of storage space and you don't need a workshop per se; it can be used out of doors provided it isn't actually raining and it isn't too breezy. [Over the years I have done most of the welding that I have done (which is lots and lots BTW) outdoors in fact, mainly because the workshop gets less messy that way.... :D]

Nice idea, but I doubt it's safe for me to use it on the 6th floor balcony of an Amsterdam apartment block, not only is the balcony barely a meter wide, but I don't think the power to the whole apartment is able to take me plugging welding kit in.

It's not just about storing it, it's about being able to actually plug it in. A typical rental landlord is not going to upgrade your electrics just because you want to weld stuff, and there's no way the tenant is going to want to fund it as they may not be there in a months time. There are more issues to this than you may think.

Quote

So yes it isn't worth buying one just for getting the screws out of pedals.... :-[ but it may not be as impractical to own and use such a thing as one might think. It is certainly well worth asking friends, colleagues and neighbours if they know anyone who has one tucked away in the shed/garage.


It may not be as practical as you think. I'm pretty certain none of my neighbours in this apartment block will have such a thing...

J
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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #23 on: 22 July, 2017, 05:30:55 pm »
I don't think it's remotely impracticable for me or many of my friends to own and use a welder - we just don't, though. I don't think ownership is as common as Brucey is suggesting.

(As for the electrics, anything I was considering would be single phase. I'd be a bit cross if it blew the supply.)

quixoticgeek

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Re: Stubourn Philips Screws
« Reply #24 on: 22 July, 2017, 05:39:28 pm »
I don't think it's remotely impracticable for me or many of my friends to own and use a welder - we just don't, though. I don't think ownership is as common as Brucey is suggesting.

(As for the electrics, anything I was considering would be single phase. I'd be a bit cross if it blew the supply.)

When you have a single 10A circuit for the whole flat, it's a problem...

J
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