Cramps & Carbs

[JohnR]

I'm starting this thread as a record mainly of my two main cycling problems and how I'm attempting to overcome them as it may help others in the same predicament.

I am now suffering from muscle cramps (being an old git) whether on the bike or just watching telly.
Without going into too much background details I've basically found I leak magnesium by the bucket load (no scientific test, just my own tests). I now take daily magnesium tablets (360mg) from the supermarket and this has relieved me from the telly watching and night cramps but I need much more when riding my bike!

my last ride was the winter solstice 200Km where I ensured I was properly hydrated the day before. Drank 500ml of a sports energy drink laced with a Hi5 zero electrolyt tab at breakfast, which included a double helping of porridge oats, two slices of brown bread toasted with butter and strawberry jam thickly covering same and a banana.

During the ride I carried 2 x 500ml bottles of sports drink each with a zero electrolyte tab in, with some flapjack biscuits. This took me into Market Drayton for lunch, which was beens on toast and hot chocolate.
I topped up one of my bottles with water and another electrolyte tab and set off for the afternoon tea @ Old ma's coffee shop.

Here I downed a portion of bread and butter pudding with another hot chocolate. For the last leg of the journey I filled both bottles with water, sports drink and an electrolyt tablet.

During the bike ride down, I started off great doing a good average mph into the headwind until the last part into Mkt. Drayton which was full on headwind, my legs struggled this section with a definite lack of power probably because I was glycogen deficient by not eating enough on the way down while doing OK.

After lunch it was a bit better with the cross/head wind to Old Ma's. No evidence so far of cramps, which was unusual for me (propbably overdosing on electrolytes). Now on the last leg home with a healthy tail wind I could feel my legs beginning to cramp where I would simply take a large drink which seemed to put me on for anothe 10Km or so all the way back. I actually stopped for a pee on this last stretch which I've never done before. The very last climb was a reasonable one but i had run out of juice, legs just managed to turn my granny gear home, but no cramps, whoopee.

Only drawback was I could not quench an insatiable thirst for the next 3 days due to the high sodium content of the sports drinks laced with electrolyte tablets.

Now I've been thinking (always problematic), If I just dissolve one of my supermarket magnesium tablets into my 500ml bottles instead of an electrolyt tab and a little orange juice and a pinch of salt I may be OK for Sunday's ride. I'll keep breakfast as before and make myself eat regularly during the ride and see what happens. I'm going to take the electrolyte tablets with me just in case but no sports drinks.

I'll update this thread as I go along to record my findings.

[mattc]

You'd never peed at the roadside? Why bother riding a bike?!?

I assume that you now appreciate this most pleasurable part of the biking experience, and will now hydrate to excess to repeat the experience.

[hellymedic]

Peanut butter is a good source of magnesium, fat and protein.
The fat would delay absorption of the carbs on your toast and provide its own energy.
Suggest you spread toast with PB to 'iron out' peaks and troughs in your blood sugar.

[T42]

Getting on the scales before & after is a pretty good guide to whether you're hydrating properly or not.

Wednesday I drank around a litre over 116 km, and weighed a kilo less on Thursday than the day before. This morning (Friday) my weight was the same as on Wednesday. No rides in between.

[JohnR]

You'd never peed at the roadside? Why bother riding a bike?!?

I assume that you now appreciate this most pleasurable part of the biking experience, and will now hydrate to excess to repeat the experience.

 

[JohnR]

Peanut butter is a good source of magnesium, fat and protein.
The fat would delay absorption of the carbs on your toast and provide its own energy.
Suggest you spread toast with PB to 'iron out' peaks and troughs in your blood sugar.

Thanks hellymedic, I'll try that out sometime.

[JohnR]

Getting on the scales before & after is a pretty good guide to whether you're hydrating properly or not.

I'll also try this, thanks T42

[hellymedic]

Weighing can be confounded by the fact that glycogen locks up much water; there's up to 2kg difference between replete glycogen + water and when stores are depleted.
Also, extreme exercise or trauma can cause muscles to swell and the body to retain water.

As a result, weight post Audax can swing wildly...

[hellymedic]

My personal experience is that I peed more than I had drunk towards the last quarter of long rides and that sweet milk drinks like Yazoo! and Frijj 'hit the spot'.

[T42]

I have heard that when a camel finally has a drink after going without water for several days, it pees before the water has had time to get through.

Re the weight thing, it's true that after a long, strenuous ride, my weight will increase over the next couple of days, whereafter follows The Night of Incredible Pee; and next day my weight can be down a kilo or so. More, on a multi-day Audax.  But on a training ride that doesn't happen. 

Nonetheless, if you weigh less after a ride than when you started you probably didn't drink enough. Unless you had the mother and father of a crap under way, of course.

[hellymedic]

I think much depends on how you handle your glycogen. Some burn little and some burn lots.
If you start with 400g glycogen tied to 1.5 litres of water and burn the lot, you'll pee away the 1.5 litres of water whether or not you've drunk enough and still finish the ride lighter but not dehydrated.
If you are primarily fat burning, this does not apply.

[Feline]

There's a real danger that if you add too much 'stuff' to your bottle you may actually dehydrate yourself the more of it you drink rather than quenching your thirst. This will put a load on your kidneys amongst other things and isn't a risk I would take personally.
Overdoing a magnesium supplement is potentially dangerous, especially if you do that concurrently with dehydration and extreme exercise.

[hellymedic]

Agreed, Feline.
I usually had my sports drinks half-strength or alternated between tap water and sports drink.
Isotonic is the MAXIMUM solute load you should drink if you are taking in anything by mouth.

If you crave TAP water, drink it!

Don't drink water (or anything else either) till you feel bloated.

[T42]

I think much depends on how you handle your glycogen. Some burn little and some burn lots.
If you start with 400g glycogen tied to 1.5 litres of water and burn the lot, you'll pee away the 1.5 litres of water whether or not you've frunk enough and still finish the ride lighter but not dehydrated.
If you are primarily fat burning, this does not apply.

My glycogen metabolism is all firked up by metformin.  I need to knock off it three or four days before a decent Audax.  If I do that I seem to switch to fat-burning at around 200k and stay that way the rest of the time.  I do shove in a lot of carbs, usually at breakfast (hard finding any other kind of breakfast in France) but they're all slow to medium fast. Pizza plays a large part.  After the first day, sugary/"sports" drinks seem repulsive, first day I seem to run on them.

If I don't knock off the poison, intestinal consequences are dire.

[JohnR]

Update on my experimentation - Had usual breakfast without sports drink, put magnesium tablet in each bidon of weak orange juice and pinch of salt. Set off OK but I was feeling slight cramping in my ankles around 40 miles in, drank and cramp feeling subsided. As far as carbs go, I think I became deficient as legs did not want to work up hills into headwind. Dnf'd @ about 45 miles due to other reasons.

As for overdosing on magnesium, what is considered enough? I read a scientific report about it where the author suggested there was no upper recommended limit as yet. There was a statement I remember in one of them which said "high calcium+low magnesium=death". I think they were talking about cells. Yet another suggested calcium helps muscles to contract (to do work) and magnesium helps them to relax (after contractions) and that a deficiency in magnesium is a reason for them going into cramp spasm.

I am aware I may be overdoing the magnesium on a ride as this may be a reason for my muscles not being able to produce more power due to them relaxing a little too much. Hmm.

[T42]

Stop worrying about it. Just eat something and ride.

Today I ate a slice of ham and two slices of black rye bread with butter for breakfast. Had a couple of cups of tea and an espresso. Went out about 10 am and did 140 km in the course of which I ate one raison/cinnamon bar at ~50k, drank one 200ml/300cal nutritional drink for old buggers and digestively-challenged invalids at the 70-km mark, and one thick slice of gingerbread at around 100 km.  Got home after 140 km. Drank when I was thirsty, didn't think about it otherwise. Got through maybe half a litre of plain water - cold day.  Felt fine, if virtuously tired. Legs are sore now because I hammered them a bit much, but the only cramp I had was about 5 hours later, getting up from a chair, and it went away PDQ. Lack of training, probably, or maybe I didn't drink enough. I could have, though.

Point is that fiddling about with mineral levels will rarely give you an ideal solution. Eating normally and not worrying quite possibly will.

[hellymedic]

T42 has a point.
Your cramps sound horrible and I'd also try to address the problem.
It is possible to overdose on supplements.
It's not likely that an adult of sound mind could overdose on peanut butter sandwiches.

I'd suggest eating what suits you and drinking occasional supplements with caution.

[JohnR]

This is my point, I'm trying to find out what works for me regarding keeping cramps at bay and what to eat during a ride etc. I don't like taking these things and am attempting to wean myself off them in favour of proper food while riding. The cramps are a new thing with me as I've got older.

I only found out about them when I suddenly had both my quads cramp up on the bike starting to go up a long steep hill, I had to get off where both legs seized up completely immobilising me. I then drank a full bottle of electrolyte water and a flapjack and could only carry on when these were in my system (about half to three quarters of an hour later). up until then, I could hardly walk and sitting made things worse! I just don't want to get to that situation again as I was in the middle of nowhere!

[hellymedic]

I'd go for a well-varied ordinary diet in the days before the ride: lots of fruit & veg etc, peanut butter sandwiches in the saddlebag and 'rescue' mineral supplements in your emergency kit.
Are you on any medicines that would increase your magnesium loss?

[JohnR]

I'm not on any medications.

I eat about 2 bananas daily and try to eat a sensible diet of fresh vegetables etc. but, yes I'll try the peanut butter sandwiches before my next long ride without any additives in my bidons other than weak orange squash with a pinch of salt. Also I'll take emergency electrolyte tablets with me.

I am conscious I don't drink or eat enough while riding. Eating foods seems too much effort to chew etc, and I simply don't make enough effort to drink while riding. I am trying to do more of both of these.

I am also aware muscle fatigue could be playing a role also, but I suppose more rides should extend my muscle endurance.

[Feline]

Hypermagnesaemia is a potentially dangerous state. Best to avoid that!

Magnesium is closely related to calcium metabolism, and both can get messed up if you're dehydrated. As a general rule if you give your body enough hydration it can correct most electrolyte disturbances all by itself without supplementation. If you take supplements while dehydrated it can cause serious issues IME. I should probably explain I am a Veterinarian with a specialism in emergency and critical care, rather than a medic 

[Jakob]

Looking at this, I can't really see that you are getting protein? Are you a vegetarian by any chance?

[hellymedic]

Hypermagnesaemia is a potentially dangerous state. Best to avoid that!

Magnesium is closely related to calcium metabolism, and both can get messed up if you're dehydrated. As a general rule if you give your body enough hydration it can correct most electrolyte disturbances all by itself without supplementation. If you take supplements while dehydrated it can cause serious issues IME. I should probably explain I am a Veterinarian with a specialism in emergency and critical care, rather than a medic 

I can't imagine most mammals are very different and at least you are trained in the differences between them.

[Feline]

Hypermagnesaemia is a potentially dangerous state. Best to avoid that!

Magnesium is closely related to calcium metabolism, and both can get messed up if you're dehydrated. As a general rule if you give your body enough hydration it can correct most electrolyte disturbances all by itself without supplementation. If you take supplements while dehydrated it can cause serious issues IME. I should probably explain I am a Veterinarian with a specialism in emergency and critical care, rather than a medic 

I can't imagine most mammals are very different and at least you are trained in the differences between them.

There are some significant biochemical pathway differences when you start looking at obligate carnivores like the cat, or hind-gut fermenting herbivores like the horse. But dogs and pigs are very similar to us 

[JohnR]

Looking at this, I can't really see that you are getting protein? Are you a vegetarian by any chance?

No I'm not a vegetarian, I eat meat of all kinds also. I like to think I have a reasonably balanced diet and also eat junk foods like most people. No diet following, just eating.

Feline, I accept what you are saying and it has occurred to me that maybe I'm simply not drinking enough while on the bike, this is something I will do my utmost to correct as I do actually sweat a lot during exercise, always have. I am taking the magnesium supplement daily which has stopped the night cramps and the ones which occur for no reason while watching telly. These are weird really, mainly in my feet and toes but occasionally in my calves, now all gone 

My only problem now is when riding the bike for a reasonable distance > 50 miles or about 4 hours or so at my slow speed. I know when cramps are evident they either start by a feeling of a bubble lodged in my right calf muscle which if ignored then can either start in my other calf or quads and/or hamstrings together. The feeling is that the muscles are not relaxing after each contraction phase on the pedalling stroke.

It may seem I'm putting up defenses in taking supplements, I'm not, I simply am trying to sort my problem the best I can and if in doing so, others can benefit, then all's good. I wholly welcome all contributions as it's best to have other opinions.

Next bike rides are hopefully going to be in the region of 50 miles plus and next one will be without supplements, just cordial water pinch of salt and food, with emergency electrolytes on board just in case.

Ooh I nearly forgot, about 2 years ago I was diagnosed with arthritis in my right hip with quite a severe movement limitation due to sitting behind a desk for the last 25 years and not enough exercise, hence the cycling, which seems to ease the arthritis. On occasions the arthritis flares up and is painful where I normally take an ibuprofen which eases it back again. While I have been taking the daily magnesium since about last October/November for my cramps, I am now experiencing less flare-ups of the arthritis also my movement and pain has noticibly got better - strange.