Sky - gaming the system?

[Genosse Brymbo]

As a disinterested observer the amount of drugs taken by athletes to counter various ailments appears to me to be higher than in the general population.  Surely they can't all be asthmatic?

All the top riders seem to be asthmatic. I read a study somewhere that the quantity of training required to be a top cyclist created the conditions that cause asthma, but I'm not in a position to be able to verify that. I know that Indurain was one who used it.

Do you have any hyperlinks to this study?  My interest is piqued.

[DuncanM]

As a disinterested observer the amount of drugs taken by athletes to counter various ailments appears to me to be higher than in the general population.  Surely they can't all be asthmatic?

All the top riders seem to be asthmatic. I read a study somewhere that the quantity of training required to be a top cyclist created the conditions that cause asthma, but I'm not in a position to be able to verify that. I know that Indurain was one who used it.

Do you have any hyperlinks to this study?  My interest is piqued.

A quick google finds this: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/28/asthma-elite-athletes-study-swimmers-cyclist-eid
And an older pubmed article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21702657
I'm sure there are more, but I'm supposed to be working!

My personal guess?  Froome has done a blood bag the evening after a really difficult day and a big time loss. The salbutamol is in there. It has been used as a masking agent for something else.

If it's in the blood bag, my guess is that the blood was taken at a time when there was a lot of pollen about and he had used salbutamol as normal (or indeed in pill form). There are a number of articles around saying that it's a rubbish masking agent, so I find it unlikely they were making a blood bag and used it as a mask for other stuff they thought would be in the bag...

[sojournermike]

Cycling is being ruined by this combination of overzealous rules, leaks of confidential process, and trial by media. It’s become nigh on impossible to navigate these booby traps while competing at the top.

I thought it was drug cheating that was ruining the sport, not leaks to the press.

Or maybe the overzealous rules limiting the amount of permitted doping?

[simonp]

I’m afraid when I watched Froome gain back time after a bad day in the Vuelta I was thinking “Morzine”.

[TigaSefi]

For a cyclist that was tested every day he was in yellow how fast does this flush out of system?

[toontra]

Cycling is being ruined by this combination of overzealous rules, leaks of confidential process, and trial by media. It’s become nigh on impossible to navigate these booby traps while competing at the top.

I thought it was drug cheating that was ruining the sport, not leaks to the press.

Or maybe the overzealous rules limiting the amount of permitted doping?

That's a very strange interpretation of the situation.  The "overzealous rules" have been brought in to counter decades of systematic, cynical and increasingly convoluted drug cheating and are targeted at known performance-enhancing drugs.  How do you think public confidence would be affected if (as you imply) those pesky rules were relaxed?

[toontra]

I’m afraid when I watched Froome gain back time after a bad day in the Vuelta I was thinking “Morzine”.

It's almost part of the fascination of watching the grand tours - the "is he or isn't he" element.

[DuncanM]

That's a very strange interpretation of the situation.  The "overzealous rules" have been brought in to counter decades of systematic, cynical and increasingly convoluted drug cheating and are targeted at known performance-enhancing drugs.  How do you think public confidence would be affected if (as you imply) those pesky rules were relaxed?

I'm not convinced that the bold statement is completely true.  For (pertinent) example, there are apparently at least as many studies showing that Salbutamol has little effect beyond helping asthma affected athletes perform as they can without the asthma.

[toontra]

That's a very strange interpretation of the situation.  The "overzealous rules" have been brought in to counter decades of systematic, cynical and increasingly convoluted drug cheating and are targeted at known performance-enhancing drugs.  How do you think public confidence would be affected if (as you imply) those pesky rules were relaxed?

I'm not convinced that the bold statement is completely true.  For (pertinent) example, there are apparently at least as many studies showing that Salbutamol has little effect beyond helping asthma affected athletes perform as they can without the asthma.

According to the bloke on Radio4 just now (who in the past advised Team Sky and Froome on how to establish that he was asthmatic) 

[sojournermike]

Cycling is being ruined by this combination of overzealous rules, leaks of confidential process, and trial by media. It’s become nigh on impossible to navigate these booby traps while competing at the top.

I thought it was drug cheating that was ruining the sport, not leaks to the press.

Or maybe the overzealous rules limiting the amount of permitted doping?

That's a very strange interpretation of the situation.  The "overzealous rules" have been brought in to counter decades of systematic, cynical and increasingly convoluted drug cheating and are targeted at known performance-enhancing drugs.  How do you think public confidence would be affected if (as you imply) those pesky rules were relaxed?

Sorry, I was being ironic. Sam had mentioned 'over zealous rules', and I wished to challenge the idea that this is the case. I wasn't proposing allowing limited or controlled doping!

[Hot Flatus]

It's pretty risible that Samuel D is claiming that cycling is being ruined by over-zealous rules no bla bla.

No it isn't, Samuel. It really isn't. It's being ruined by yet another Team Sky rider and tour winner dragging the sport into the mud.

[Karla]

I wonder what Mr Bwiggins thinks about all this?

[Jakob]

I wonder what Mr Bwiggins thinks about all this?

Glad to be out of the spotlight?

This is from another forum:
"There is a plateau effect for inhaled salbutamol and it does little if you don't have asthma, exercise-induced or otherwise.

Oral salbutamol, on the other hand, does have performance enhancing effects outside of pure bronchodilation. That's where the studies showing increased sprint power, anabolic effects, improved recovery time, improved energy generation etc come from. There's also data showing acute dosing (single dosing) is better than chronic dosing (1-3 weeks).

Oral salbutamol is a banned substance, inhaled doesn't need a TUE. The dose ceiling set for a positive test is based on what the majority of people sticking to the maximum prescribed inhaled dose are unlikely to go above. If you take it orally, you are much more likely to go over the dose ceiling. If your asthma is bad enough that we (speaking as a chest physician) consider oral salbutamol, you shouldn't be competing in stage races from a medical safety perspective.

Given Froome's never tested positive before and other people who have couldn't reproduce that result under controlled attempts to clear their name, there's a reasonable chance he was doping with oral salbutamol."

Too bad. I would have preferred Froome to be clean.

[DuncanM]

That's a very strange interpretation of the situation.  The "overzealous rules" have been brought in to counter decades of systematic, cynical and increasingly convoluted drug cheating and are targeted at known performance-enhancing drugs.  How do you think public confidence would be affected if (as you imply) those pesky rules were relaxed?

I'm not convinced that the bold statement is completely true.  For (pertinent) example, there are apparently at least as many studies showing that Salbutamol has little effect beyond helping asthma affected athletes perform as they can without the asthma.

According to the bloke on Radio4 just now (who in the past advised Team Sky and Froome on how to establish that he was asthmatic) 

I didn't listen to Radio 4 - was reading some blog on it (maybe the Innr Ring one?).

[Hot Flatus]

Who wouldn't prefer him to be clean?   (well...maybe Nibali  )

There is a reason why he has always been shrouded with suspicion...

[Sergeant Pluck]

I'm not convinced that the bold statement is completely true.  For (pertinent) example, there are apparently at least as many studies showing that Salbutamol has little effect beyond helping asthma affected athletes perform as they can without the asthma.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/40/suppl_1/i43.short

A quick google (not just the above link) shows that it is a pretty mixed picture. I think it is going to be tricky to tease it all out: some of the studies involve asthmatic athletes, some non-asthmatic. Most of the studies seem to have focussed on normal inhaled therapeutic doses.

It’s a mess - really sad. There will be endless debate about it, no firm conclusions, and Froome will be forever tainted.

[mattc]

Pity.  I quite like the role he carved out as the sport's ambassador.  A nice chap, articulate and fair minded.  But now tainted, regardless of the eventual outcome based on technical and process arguments from his legal team and expert.

An ambassador? Really??

I find him terribly dull. Every interview same tone of voice, same eyebrow moves, same sanitised PR-speak. Always seems to want to keep his head down, stay away from any controversy (let alone any teammates with doping connections), no real opinion on anything. A deeply uninteresting succesor to Wiggins.


Just MHO of course!

[Jakob]

Who wouldn't prefer him to be clean?   (well...maybe Nibali  )

There is a reason why he has always been shrouded with suspicion...

I still put a lot of that down to him not being really British and not very interesting. Even his riding was boring. "Oh so, you want to attack. I'll just sit here and maintain 91.123437983 rpm and will catch you later. Then I'll launch a massive attack at  91.123437984 rpm"

[mattc]

 

[Hot Flatus]

[Pedal Castro]

Too bad. I would have preferred Froome to be clean.

To me it was obvious he is doping ever since that 2nd place in the Vuelta, almost as obvious as Armstrong after his first Tour win.

[sojournermike]

I wonder what Mr Bwiggins thinks about all this?

Glad to be out of the spotlight?

This is from another forum:
"There is a plateau effect for inhaled salbutamol and it does little if you don't have asthma, exercise-induced or otherwise.

Oral salbutamol, on the other hand, does have performance enhancing effects outside of pure bronchodilation. That's where the studies showing increased sprint power, anabolic effects, improved recovery time, improved energy generation etc come from. There's also data showing acute dosing (single dosing) is better than chronic dosing (1-3 weeks).

Oral salbutamol is a banned substance, inhaled doesn't need a TUE. The dose ceiling set for a positive test is based on what the majority of people sticking to the maximum prescribed inhaled dose are unlikely to go above. If you take it orally, you are much more likely to go over the dose ceiling. If your asthma is bad enough that we (speaking as a chest physician) consider oral salbutamol, you shouldn't be competing in stage races from a medical safety perspective.

Given Froome's never tested positive before and other people who have couldn't reproduce that result under controlled attempts to clear their name, there's a reasonable chance he was doping with oral salbutamol."

Too bad. I would have preferred Froome to be clean.

Pr as on knowledgeable commentator suggested, forgot the 'leftovers' in a blood bag the night before.

Much of this will never be known for certain, but he will almost certainly be banned for some months and the surprise is in his being caught, not in him being a doper

[sojournermike]

And I say that despite finding his personality absolutely fine and less displeasing than BW

[Hot Flatus]

Too bad. I would have preferred Froome to be clean.

To me it was obvious he is doping ever since that 2nd place in the Vuelta, almost as obvious as Armstrong after his first Tour win.

👆

[Séamas M.]

.. Team Sky will look into it all and explain it to us later tell us it's all OK.

FTFY