Author Topic: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?  (Read 17460 times)

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #25 on: 15 August, 2022, 06:08:42 pm »
Battery storage payback varies massively with consumption/size/solar performance and with the delta between overnight rate and day rate electricity (assuming you can get overnight cheap rates).
Also, if you are getting solar PV, then the battery is at the same VAT rate (0 or 5%, can't remember), but if the battery is a standalone then you pay all the VAT.  A 9kWh battery install is about 5-6 grand at the moment (including VAT), if you can find someone who has one they can install. I've not updated my payback math since the latest electricity price rise speculation, but on current prices, if you can charge it at 7.5p per kWh, and that means you don't need to use the day rate of 40p per kWh, that's £2.80 or so a day, or around a grand a year. NB that's a super simple calculation - if you have solar you could save more, but batteries are often limited in terms of output power, so if your battery limits at 5kW and your shower pulls 10kW, you're using 5kW of 40p electricity for the duration of your shower.
I think our solar system cost 5 grand about 5 years ago. It's old enough to not have microinverters, but it seems to be relatively reliable in terms of the output curve, I don't think pigeons bother it all that much (east/west, so where the sun is makes a massive difference). If you get panels, make sure to get anti-pigeon stuff installed at the same time - we've had a real issue getting stuff installed to try to stop them rattling around under the panels!

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #26 on: 16 August, 2022, 08:38:41 pm »
My troubles with the Solar Together nominated provider for this geographic Local Authority area continue. This firm is called Green Energy Together (GET) of Ware Herts. Avoid at all costs!!!!

They have just invoiced me for my new installation. But, the problem is, I do not have a new installation, the component parts are sitting where the delivery guy put them on the 3rd August. I cancelled the order by email on the 11th August (with hard copy recorded del to their head office) as they did not install on the 5th as scheduled and have not communicated at all since.  I cancelled in accordance with the terms and cons (within the cooling off period) as I did not want to lose my ability to cancel. They do not seem to read emails, return phone calls, or make call backs when agreeing to do so. I spent 40 mins odd on the phone today to no avail by not moving in the queue at all. ( I find this highly suspect tbh).

With baited breath I have sent them photos, taken today, of the uninstalled kit about my premises asking them to remove same asap.

It would seem they have confused me with someone else, whom presumably, they have not invoiced for a new installation. British industry at its finest. Strewth.
The sooner these guys are out of my life the better.

Solar Together seem completely toothless but they do communicate well. I have copied them into every email attempt I have made with GET but I am still where I am today. Their ability to hold the contractor to account for compliance seems somewhat limited or perhaps non existent.

Even if I do get my deposit back this experience will still have cost me £150 for the survey.
Solicitors beckon methinks.
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #27 on: 20 August, 2022, 01:01:40 pm »
Just cancelled the order for the PV panels (Statutory cooling period of only 14 days which commences when materials are delivered but before installation) and will go with one of the main energy providers instead I think.
Hi, hope your issues with the original company are being sorted.  Who are you planning to go with?
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #28 on: 20 August, 2022, 01:20:43 pm »
For those of you who went over + batteries, how much space did you need for the batteries and where did you store them?
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #29 on: 20 August, 2022, 02:08:30 pm »
I don't think anyone here has - as I have mentioned on another thread, they are not yet economical for domestic use where you have a reliable connection to the mains.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #30 on: 20 August, 2022, 02:15:18 pm »
OVO are asking for expressions of interest atm so may well see how it goes with them as and when. OVO Australia already install. Eon install, but seem a bit spendy. Batteries in the UK are still prohibitively expensive. Big Battery.com in the US illustrates just how much more expensive, when they can supply a 7plus KWh battery with 10 year guarantee for $2499 plus inverter, this including auto heat detection and suppression. Also, I am not that keen on having a battery internally due to fire risk, which will further increase the cost of any installation, particularly if housed externally in a suitable cabinet.Heat pumps don't appear to make economic or practical sense for me atm.
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

Mrs Pingu

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #31 on: 20 August, 2022, 04:40:48 pm »
There's an article in today's Guardian on Solar PV. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/20/solar-panels-how-to-fix-your-energy-bills-while-the-sun-shines

My interest was piqued by the suggestion of using your excess generation to run an immersion heater, rather than exporting for the crap return you are offered these days. 'That's a good idea' I thought. Though it seems it's not really very practical to use this in combination with a combi boiler. I suppose I could in theory get a future new hot water shower (i.e. not electric) installed and just have that (and maybe the bathroom sink tap) running off the immersion. (Though assuming the water heats during the day would it stay warm long enough to have a shower with it early the next morning?)

(And I suppose if we were to go the whole hog eventually and get ASHP that would negate the immersion idea).
Hmmmm
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Kim

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #32 on: 20 August, 2022, 04:44:27 pm »
You can pre-heat the cold feed to a combi.  How much the boiler will tolerate depends on its ability to modulate down sensibly.  MIL's former house (solar thermal) had a thermostatic mixer valve feeding water to the combi at about 40C, which was meh.

Alternatively, I suppose you could use a combi boiler to heat the water in the tank as if it were another central heating zone...

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #33 on: 20 August, 2022, 05:19:53 pm »
I would have thought that if you wanted to heat water you would do it direct, not via pv.  You could use pv to run a hp though, running in reverse in summer to cool your house.
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Mrs Pingu

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #34 on: 20 August, 2022, 05:40:16 pm »
Yebbut the point is that if you get solar water you don't get any voles. This way you get voles and anything extra you get free HW.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Mrs Pingu

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #35 on: 20 August, 2022, 05:41:30 pm »
You can pre-heat the cold feed to a combi.  How much the boiler will tolerate depends on its ability to modulate down sensibly.  MIL's former house (solar thermal) had a thermostatic mixer valve feeding water to the combi at about 40C, which was meh.

Alternatively, I suppose you could use a combi boiler to heat the water in the tank as if it were another central heating zone...

The articles I was reading suggested that only certain boilers could accept preheated water.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Wombat

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #36 on: 20 August, 2022, 06:08:58 pm »
You are correct, Mrs P.

Whilst using PV to heat water may seem illogical, its actually cheaper and more reliable, and you have the flexibility of using your excess voles in the way you want.  95% of our water is heated this way, its just on particularly crap winter days we may need to let the oil boiler do a bit of water heating.  This is in rural mid-Wales, where is is often cloudy (I mean we are in the clouds because of altitude, not the sky is cloudy, which is NFW).
Wombat

Mrs Pingu

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #37 on: 20 August, 2022, 06:11:30 pm »
Interesting to know, thanks Wombat. Are you heating your water with excess PV or is that the primary use for it? How long does it stay hot for - can you have an early morning shower using the previous days' HW?
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #38 on: 20 August, 2022, 06:40:24 pm »
In our owned house we ran hot water on a separate circuit with a massive tank in the attic and the immersion connected to the PV.  The only hot water heating for a lot of the year was the immersion heater and was perfectly hot enough for the morning.  This was though with a large tank, very well insulated.

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #39 on: 21 August, 2022, 02:21:36 am »
Hi,

For those of you who went over + batteries, how much space did you need for the batteries and where did you store them?

For us it was almost a no-brainer, the Inverter went inside the garage on the wall beside the Electricity meter and with the (3kWh) Battery below.  I'd expected it to be hung on the wall but it just sits "upright" on the floor; it's basically like a "19 inch rack" (45 x 40 x 15 cms) which would have been stacked up if we'd ordered more of the 3kWh modules. Each module was priced at about £1000 but that appears to have doubled in the last 6 months. 3kWh is not really large enough, but at present prices the law of diminishing returns may make it "about right".

The first use of the battery is for short bursts of energy (less than 1 kWh) for kettle, toaster, washing machine, etc. when the PV may be only ticking over at <1kW in early morning and winter, etc., and avoids buying in full-priced electricity. The next use is to power the house overnight on "free" electricity in summer, or in winter to charge overnight on low(er) cost electricity to use during the day.  3 kWh is not really enough to do that fully but it's only a part-year feature.  However, even a large battery won't do much to get over the three or more consecutive days of generally either "sunny" or "overcast" weather common in our UK climate.  Also it probably won't help much with an electric (only) shower (~10 kW) which is why I'm looking at installing a thermostatic "power shower" to run from the HW tank.

As I hinted in my post on 1 August, if I were buying the system now, I would consider requesting Lead Acid batteries (Deep Cycle, Leisure or Marine type) for which £1000 could buy around 10 kWh. All that can't be used continuously, but 50% DOD will give 5kW and maybe more for the occasional "unusual" conditions.  Those batteries may not last more than 5 years but by then, the LiFePO4s may be better value or you may have a "battery with wheels" (aka an EV) when the concept of the car supplying stored power to the house will be more mature.  ;)
______

A standard "foam" covered HW tank probably won't keep its temperature particularly well; I've just set our Immersion heater to run in/until the late afternoon to use the PV, but the water is noticeably cooler by the morning. So I plan to add a low-cost Immersion "Jacket" which (the reviews suggest) should help considerably.  It depends greatly on how much hot water you use, but we're actually "losing" more energy from the tank than the hot water used.  But that's still more economical than exporting the electricity (even to Octopus at 7.5p/kWh) and of course in winter the energy is not really "lost" if it helps to heat the house.

Cheers,  Alan.

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #40 on: 21 August, 2022, 03:47:30 pm »
Cheers allycat, I was wondering how we could put a water tank and batteries in the loft, but looks like batteries are not as big as I thought.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #41 on: 22 August, 2022, 11:06:40 am »
Hi,

If PV panels are installed at the same time as the battery (which I believe saves VAT and was mandatory for the much larger Tesla Powerwall), then a "Hybrid" Inverter may be installed, that converts the dc from the panels AND the battery to ac.  Maybe a little larger and more expensive than a normal Inverter, but I don't know the situation for MicroInverters, or if a PV system is already installed.

You can give yourself a fright by looking for "Pylontech" (LiFePO4 batteries) on ebay, where the price almost doubled within a few months.  The size (and number) of battery modules will depend greatly on your electricity usage (quantity and daily pattern) but I'd suggest aiming for about 18 hours of storage at your average consumption (i.e. 3/4 day) if the price looks "realistic".  Hybrid Inverters generally accept 48 volts dc such as from Pylontech (and other brands) OR from Lead Acid, e.g. 4 x "car type" batteries connected in series.  Each 120 Ah "Leisure/Marine" battery is probably equivalent to about 0.75 kWh taking into account the recommended 50% Depth Of Discharge.

Cheers,  Alan.

SoreTween

  • Most of me survived the Pennine Bridleway.
Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #42 on: 23 August, 2022, 07:25:29 pm »
Life.  Don't it just get in the way.

So, solar panel life cycles, what's that all about?  Put simply - they degrade, they all degrade and a sales person telling you theirs are super-duper producing the same after 25 years as on day 1 is probably lying.  Hmmm, how can we have 'probably' and the assertion that all panels degrade in the same sentence?  Let me explain.

Here's a typical Warranty graph:


First the dark grey part - this is how warranties on solar panels used to work (and some still do).  From day 1 through to the end of the 10th year the manufacturer only guaranteed 90% of rated output dropping to 80% years 11-25.  That's a bit crap, your 250 watt panels might only produce 225 on the day you switched them on.  Your string of ten could have produced only 2.25kW instead of 2.5 kW on day one.  From year 11 on you might only see 2kW on those rare bright & sunny days.
Manufacturing techniques improved and reduced the variability out of the factory, also manufacturers started to 'bin' their panels, by which I mean they would test them and then sell them as 260 watt, 250, 240, 230 etc depending on their actual performance rather than 'we're trying to make 250 watt panels so we'll sell them all as that'.  These two changes allowed linear warranties to be introduced, the orange area.  Panels still degrade just the same but it's more predictable and steady.

All panels have a production warranty, ask to see yours before you buy.  The above slope is 0.8% per year.  The Canadian Solar panels I bought for my experimental array are 0.6% per year.  LG produce some that are warrantied at 0.25% per year, naturally these are more expensive up front.

So does this mean we are stuck with buying systems that only produce 'boilerplate' power when brand new (if at all) and get steadily crapper over time?  No, we over-spec the panels to account for it.

Take for example Enphase IQ7a micro-inverters.  These are specified to work with panels ranging from 350 to 460+W which is a huge variability.  So which panels do you choose?  Although the input power is widely variable the output power, what the electronics can handle, is limited to 366W1.  So if we size our panels so that after x years they still produce 366W we're golden?  Yes we are.  Panels degrade but electronics do not, they either work or they fail.  So choose panels that can run your inverter flat out for whatever the payback time of the system is.  This is what the salesman who swears his magic panels don't degrade is doing, he's over-specking the panels so the customer doesn't see the degradation.  Or he's not that clever and flat lying to you.

String inverters are the same, here's the data sheet for Growatt string inverters.  For inverters with max rated power output of 2500W they allow up to 2900W panel arrays.  I get the feeling looking at the numbers the margins are not quite so generous on these string inverters, I could be wrong & I don't have the spoons right now to fully dive in.

After the system has paid for it who cares if there's degradation?  Your system might produce 100% power for 10 years and pay for itself.  In year 11 it starts to degrade by 0.8, 0.6 or even 0.25% per year, its still 100% free power, you are not going to match your household load that closely that such a small percentage makes a material difference.  Sure you could have bought better quality or higher power panels up front but that would have cost more.  The cost benefit relationship in that part of the system life is very hard to gauge.  The CO2 manufacturing payback on solar panels, by the way, is so short it's not even a factor.  Less than a couple of years even if they are shipped half way round the world.

1Actually the spec is 366VA.  Converting from VA to W is complicated and requires an understanding of power factors and imaginary power.  No really, imaginary power is a real thing.  Imaginary but real.  That makes perfect sense.  For simplicity I'm going to assume W=VA which in a lot of loads at home is near as makes no odds true.
2023 targets: Survive. Maybe.
There is only one infinite resource in this universe; human stupidity.

quixoticgeek

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #43 on: 23 August, 2022, 09:52:03 pm »
Interesting to know, thanks Wombat. Are you heating your water with excess PV or is that the primary use for it? How long does it stay hot for - can you have an early morning shower using the previous days' HW?

A good modern hot water tank should keep warm for almost a week. A friends solar install he's using the hotwater as a dump load, his tank was installed a couple of years ago, and it loses about 1kwh of heat per day. So next day should be no problem if you've put enough energy into it.

J
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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #44 on: 24 August, 2022, 05:31:55 pm »
I don't think anyone here has - as I have mentioned on another thread, they are not yet economical for domestic use where you have a reliable connection to the mains.
A battery (even without solar) can be economical if you have dual rate electricity and can charge the battery on the cheap rate and don't need to use the expensive rate. Obviously it depends on the amount you use, the rate at which you use it and the delta between the cheap and expensive rates.

The ability to fire the immersion heater based on whether or not you are exporting to the grid has been a thing since at least 2016 when we got our panels. The system we had was called iBoost, but if I were you I'd look around and see what alternatives there are - it expired after about 4 years, and the warranty was only 3, so we had to pay for an entirely new unit to be installed. We've been having issues with our thermostat tripping out this year, and we've had a new thermostat which hasn't fixed the issue - maybe the immersion has done something odd, or maybe it's some sort of iBoost effect.

SoreTween - are Autarco still offering guaranteed output? When we had ours installed, they guaranteed a total amount to be generated over the first 5/10 years, and if it falls short of this number then they will pay you what you would have got from the FIT had it hit the spec. It's not exactly generous, and FIT has gone now, but I don't know if there are suppliers who are prepared to stand behind their products and guarantee an output over the medium term?

Mrs Pingu

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Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #45 on: 24 August, 2022, 08:14:48 pm »
Is an immersion/HW tank in the loft (insulated but in the bottom, not the top) a really bad idea?
(Probably a sensible place to put it would be our bathroom, but I won't be refitting the bathroom the same year we get solar...)
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #46 on: 24 August, 2022, 09:28:51 pm »
I don't think anyone here has - as I have mentioned on another thread, they are not yet economical for domestic use where you have a reliable connection to the mains.
A battery (even without solar) can be economical if you have dual rate electricity and can charge the battery on the cheap rate and don't need to use the expensive rate. Obviously it depends on the amount you use, the rate at which you use it and the delta between the cheap and expensive rates.

I'm not convinced, please show your working
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #47 on: 24 August, 2022, 09:37:26 pm »
I'm not convinced, please show your working

If daily usage is 10kwh. If you can store that power in a 12kwh battery, which you charge at night at 20p/kwh rather than 30p/kwh, that means you're paying £2 per day, rather than £3 per day. If your battery setup costs you 365 quid, then it's gonna be money back at one year. Obviously it's not going to be so cheap, but cost of battery in pounds, is number of days until it pays back.

Nooow, if you had enough solar on the roof that you could get 10kwh of energy per day from the sun, then you are now saving yourself approx £3 per day. So pay back is now 3 times as quick if it's the same price...

IMHO, the issue with a lot of solar installs is they are just too small.

J
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http://b.42q.eu/

SoreTween

  • Most of me survived the Pennine Bridleway.
Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #48 on: 24 August, 2022, 09:55:08 pm »
SoreTween - are Autarco still offering guaranteed output? When we had ours installed, they guaranteed a total amount to be generated over the first 5/10 years, and if it falls short of this number then they will pay you what you would have got from the FIT had it hit the spec. It's not exactly generous, and FIT has gone now, but I don't know if there are suppliers who are prepared to stand behind their products and guarantee an output over the medium term?
Never heard of autarco, will dig when I can.
2023 targets: Survive. Maybe.
There is only one infinite resource in this universe; human stupidity.

Re: PV on the roof - What did yours cost?
« Reply #49 on: 24 August, 2022, 10:19:16 pm »
I'm not convinced, please show your working

If daily usage is 10kwh. If you can store that power in a 12kwh battery, which you charge at night at 20p/kwh rather than 30p/kwh, that means you're paying £2 per day, rather than £3 per day. If your battery setup costs you 365 quid, then it's gonna be money back at one year. Obviously it's not going to be so cheap, but cost of battery in pounds, is number of days until it pays back.

Nooow, if you had enough solar on the roof that you could get 10kwh of energy per day from the sun, then you are now saving yourself approx £3 per day. So pay back is now 3 times as quick if it's the same price...

IMHO, the issue with a lot of solar installs is they are just too small.

J

Yep, that's exactly what I was looking for.

So a decent deep cycle lead acid battery, 115 Ah per unit @ 12V is around £150. If you cycle them to 50%, that's 115 x 12 / 2 = 690 Wh. For your 10 kWh you need 14.5 of them = £2,173. Divide by 365 = 5.95 years.

At 50% daily discharge an AGM battery will last 3-5 years.

3 to 5 < 5.95

therefore it's not economical, QED.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.