Octopus Heat Pumps

[fd3]

I remember (I think it was QG) mention of an Octopus energy trial of Heat Pumps with conventional radiators.  It appears that they are now providing a one-stop shop for Heat Pumps (sounds like air source only)
https://octopus.energy/get-a-heat-pump/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjIKYBhC6ARIsAGEds-Laqp3o50iirtHUR6mXuYEFFi1c3FmrxcYDEuRobYq_q6VNjWkadO0aAr3TEALw_wcB

Anyone looked into this or tried it out?
Not sure it's for us atm as our gas bill is << electricity, but maybe something to follow up on once we have PV and bought in to Ripple.

[Mr Larrington]

It thinks Larrington Towers is a mid-terrace.  It isn’t.

[Jurek]

It thinks Larrington Towers is a mid-terrace.  It isn’t.

It thinks that my Victorian end of terrace was built between 1950 and 1985 and has wall and roof insulation - neither of which it does.

[Kim]

It thinks that my Victorian end of mid terrace was built between 1950 and 1985

This.

It's obviously using some very shonky database.

[SteveC]

Our place is also down as a mid-terrace and built slightly later than in reality. Not a good start.

[Pickled Onion]

It's between 100 and 400 years out on the date of my house (depending which part of it) and thinks its a flat. In an area where there are very few flats.

[rogerzilla]

I wouldn't touch an ASHP with a bargepole.  The running costs will be a lot more than for a gas boiler*:

CoP is crap in cold weather
The flow temp is low.  This means:
- big rads or underfloor heating
- on pretty much 24/7 as it takes too long to heat a house from cold
- ruinously expensive resistance heating if you want hot water, plus for top-ups

GSHPs are better, if you have the space and the capital to put one in.

A real-world UK study of ASHP SPF (which is CoP throughout the year) came out as 2.2 for retrofitted systems.  That gives a running cost of about 1.5x more than gas, after factoring in boiler efficiency.  With the inevitable addition of resistance heating to bail you out, 2x seems more realistic.

*yeah yeah, global warming, but people won't even be able to afford to run the gas boiler this winter, let alone twice the cost.

[Kim]

IMHO the obvious retrofit would be reversible split-unit air conditioning, without replacing the gas heating.  It'll be expensive to run, but it's cheap to install and for the couple of weeks a year you actually need cooling, it would be worth it.  You could then run whichever made more sense at the time.

AIUI once you have a COP of 2.5 it becomes worth burning gas in a power station to run a heat pump from an efficiency point of view.  Obviously that doesn't account for electricity prices.  Or air quality.

The elephant in the room is insulation, and retrofitting that requires the sort of joined-up thinking that no British government would commit to.  We can't even get the new-build stuff right.

[IanDG]

Detached - it's a cottage
built 1950-1985 - it was built in the 1800s

[rogerzilla]

Heat pump promoters also include the effect of improved insulation in their assumptions, ignoring the fact that those improvements would have the same benefits with the old gas boiler.

Has anyone here replaced a reasonable condensing gas boiler with an ASHP, and what are the actual running costs in comparison?

The future is certainly going to be cold and expensive (pick one).

[Kim]

All said, kudos for Octopus for trying to make this work at scale and bring the installation costs down to something reasonable.  Somebody needs to do it, as it's the only reasonable alternative to burning gas or rebuilding to Passivhaus standards.

Of course, when you sell electrons, it makes sense to get people using more electricity...

[De Sisti]

According to their database and the information I provided, my mid-terraced house isn't
suitable for a heat-pump. Anyhow, each year since I've had my Worcester Bosch boiler*
British Gas engineers have assessed it to be in very good condition and that there are no
issues with spare parts for it (if required).


*Installed in January 2010.

[Wowbagger]

@RZ: my son had an ASHP at his previous house in Essex. He was impressed with it. It wasn't for the main building, but an outbuilding that his partner used as a yoga-teaching studio. I'll ask him about the running costs.

They sold that place in March and have just bought a place in Finland, in the sticks, nearest station about an hour west of Helsinki. They have a fair bit of land and a river running nearby, with what looks like a natural waterfall, from which they hope to get some hydroelectrons. But the Finnish government are pretty environmentally conscious and new hydro stuff has to be fish-friendly. They haven't moved in yet as there's a fair bit of work to do to the place. It seems that the favoured insulation material there is sawdust. They have a lot of trees...

They also have a pretty decent sized pool in the river from which they hope to draw hydropower. That might be a pretty good place to put the pipes for a water-source heat pump - as long as it doesn't freeze solid during the winter.

I think he said the house is currently fitted with storage radiators. From what I understood, these are OK to keep the place to a bare-minimum temperature (say 10°C or so) but you want something better to take it above that. Whatever solution they come up with will depend very much on whether they can fit hydropower.

[Wombat]

Its actually tolerably correct for mine!  It says 1950-1985, and it was built in late 1985, and it is indeed detached.  I still wouldn't have an ASHP, and in our area, borehole drilling is commonplace, as many homes including mine have their water supply via a private borehole, 'cos the water company can't actually manage to get to us, as we're in the sticks.  This suggests to me, I'd be better off with a GSHP.  If I spoke nicely to John the farmer, I could possibly put surface coils in his grazing field behind us, but I'd have to avoid the outfall pipes from our septic tank, which are already in his field.

In practice, I'll carry on with the 5 year old condensing oil boiler, with as much heat as possible generated from the woodstove, using tree thinnings, which naturally occur in this well wooded part of the world.  The bungalow is fairly well insulated, and exports way more electricity than it uses, from the PV.

I am intending to get a battery storage system soon, when the probate is granted on my late mother's will.

[Mrs Pingu]

RZ you really have got a bug up your ass about ASHP, we get it. Of course it needs solar to make any sense at all for the running costs...

ETA: what I do think is bonkers is offering discounted ASHP with no similar incentive on the PV needed to power it.

[Mrs Pingu]

I remember (I think it was QG) mention of an Octopus energy trial of Heat Pumps with conventional radiators.  It appears that they are now providing a one-stop shop for Heat Pumps (sounds like air source only)
https://octopus.energy/get-a-heat-pump/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjIKYBhC6ARIsAGEds-Laqp3o50iirtHUR6mXuYEFFi1c3FmrxcYDEuRobYq_q6VNjWkadO0aAr3TEALw_wcB

Anyone looked into this or tried it out?
Not sure it's for us atm as our gas bill is << electricity, but maybe something to follow up on once we have PV and bought in to Ripple.

I saw someone on Twitter with a thread on their Octopodal HP install, they seem very pleased. It should be a 1 stop shop now as they bought a heat pump manufacturer recently. The database got our home correct and reckoned £3.5k, though they're not installing in the heathen lands yet. And the ongoing saga of our cavity wall insulation might finally end soon...
We already have what I think are pretty large radiators but there is plenty of room for bigger ones.
Just reviewing my emails it seems I bagged a place in their queue back in April.

[fd3]

Thing is, if you need pv it means that you are spending about 10k, possibly with up to 10k moe for insulation, to cut your heating bills. Would you generate enough elections to also cover some of that bill? 
Reckon for me I sit tight, maybe get the insulation, and see whether they diversify into gshp

[IanDG]

I'm fitting ASHP in the cottage with thermal solar panels to replace the oil system that existed when we bought the place. A lot of insulation to outer walls and in roof space has been added.

[Mrs Pingu]

Thing is, if you need pv it means that you are spending about 10k, possibly with up to 10k moe for insulation, to cut your heating bills. Would you generate enough elections to also cover some of that bill? 
Reckon for me I sit tight, maybe get the insulation, and see whether they diversify into gshp

Am I assuming correctly your £10k covers the cost of PV and ASHP installation? And yeah if you need to fork out that much on insulation it is going to cost a lot, but this is where we need subsidies to be provided...

As to your question on excess electrons after powering the ASHP the answer is I don't know. I'm not saying I defo want to do ASHP (well, I want to do it, but do I want to pay for it?) but I defo want to find out more about if it would work for us.

[Jurek]

I'm fitting ASHP in the cottage with thermal solar panels to replace the oil system that existed when we bought the place. A lot of insulation to outer walls and in roof space has been added.

You might do well, Ian, to have a look at the @Creek_Tebsin thread on Lfgss.

[IanDG]

I'm fitting ASHP in the cottage with thermal solar panels to replace the oil system that existed when we bought the place. A lot of insulation to outer walls and in roof space has been added.

You might do well, Ian, to have a look at the @Creek_Tebsin thread on Lfgss.

Cool, thanks for that, haven't been on LFGSS since 2011

Which reminds me - been very lazy with updates on my project

[Polar Bear]

With no grants or subsidies available we've been slowly but surely insulating our 1870's solid brick twin leaf terrace.  We have an awful lot of loft insulation, some rooms now have internal insulation and some of the ground floor even has underfloor insulation.  I have a plan for more works in September.  To finish the internal insulation a couple of radiators will need to be removed and relocated from their existing position on external walls.

The gas boiler hiccupped this week.  It turned out to be a dirty connector on a 21 year old Vaillant pre condensing boiler.  The engineer was impressed with how well it has held up, especially given as in that time it has had just one service, one replacement diverter valve and now this little hiccup.

I don't see it as anywhere economic for us to change the boiler at this time but to work to reduce our consumption as we are doing.  When the boiler finally gasps it's last hydrocarbons I am hoping that heat pumps will have improved in efficiency terms and dropped significantly in cost terms.

[FifeingEejit]

I saw someone on Twitter with a thread on their Octopodal HP install, they seem very pleased. It should be a 1 stop shop now as they bought a heat pump manufacturer recently. The database got our home correct and reckoned £3.5k, though they're not installing in the heathen lands yet.

They couldn't find my HPC which they said they needed to quote but everything else was there.
Unsurpizing if they're only hooked into the systems of the Shire

[rogerzilla]

It was happy with my house.  The hot water cylinder is going to be an issue for many, if they don't have a suitable cupboard or space for one.  Most newish small houses and flats have had combi boilers for years.

[toontra]

It was happy with my house.  The hot water cylinder is going to be an issue for many, if they don't have a suitable cupboard or space for one.  Most newish small houses and flats have had combi boilers for years.

I kept my cylinder and conventional boiler when all my neighbours were getting them ripped out and replaced with combis.  Who's laughing now 

To be fair my reasons at the time were wanting to retain the space above the cylinder in the cupboard for drying clothes.  Plumber also said combi boilers had a far shorter lifespan.  This has borne out as the Potterton profile is now 25 years old and going strong - a recent service confirmed it was fine and likely to go on forever.  I have a spare PCB just in case