Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[rafletcher]

Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.

Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat

For wheat, you just grind it up?

Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....

Bread is just ground-up wheat, water, salt, and yeast. I wouldn't say that is highly processed.

I would as you can not simply get yeast

Sourdough, anyone?

[ianrobo]

Possible and can count pasta as that but when above we spoke about dense rich foods wheat is one of these as it is pure carbs of which fibre is a carb remeber. 

[whosatthewheel]

Read a piece yesterday about everyone now assuming the age of cooking at home is over ... that is a ‘recipe’ for future health disasters

sales of kitchens are up too...

[sojournermike]

Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.

Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat

For wheat, you just grind it up?

Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....

Bread is just ground-up wheat, water, salt, and yeast. I wouldn't say that is highly processed.

I would as you can not simply get yeast

Sourdough, anyone?

All our bread is sourdough as Asda will no longer give me free fresh yeast, plus I like it.

It's not low carb or gluten free mind;)

[sojournermike]

Read a piece yesterday about everyone now assuming the age of cooking at home is over ... that is a ‘recipe’ for future health disasters

sales of kitchens are up too...

To be fair, kitchens can be bought to look at rather than to use, but the state of our cooker when I cleaned it last weekend would suggest otherwise

[mattc]

Read a piece yesterday about everyone now assuming the age of cooking at home is over ... that is a ‘recipe’ for future health disasters

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-46029963

!

[whosatthewheel]

To be fair, kitchens can be bought to look at rather than to use,

You mean like those boutique bicycles?

[ian]

Yeast is ubiquitous (sourdough, lambic etc.) – the strains we use are typically 'domesticated' of course, but I hardly think that's advanced processing. Bread is pretty much flour paste left out in the open.

Protein-rich diets are, of course, a symptom of the developed world. It's not really sustainable for everyone to chow down on a large steak every day. Most people, as they have through history, get the majority of their calories through carbohydrates (they're notably not fat either). Animal farming is massively intensive. One the best things we can do is eat less meat.

There's nothing wrong with processing per se. Things like soya have to be processed to make them edible, and that's been happening for many thousands of years. The difference now is a huge industry built around taking in cheap ingredients and turning them to a product they can sell at a high markup. That's where the money is. They have big PR budgets and follow the tobacco playbook (tobacco companies, when they couldn't deny that smoking wasn't entirely healthy, moved towards 'smoker's rights', you see the same shift in the food industry). They also invest significantly in lobbying governments and organizations like the EU. If there's a panel on obesity, you know that three-quarters of it will be 'industry stakeholders.' Anything you thinks their interest is your health is likely to be wrong. They're interested in selling more product. They shouldn't even be involved.

[whosatthewheel]

Possible and can count pasta as that but when above we spoke about dense rich foods wheat is one of these as it is pure carbs of which fibre is a carb remeber.

There's actually quite a lot of protein in wheat and therefore in pasta

Nutrition Facts
Macaroni, dry
Amount Per 100 grams
Calories 371
% Daily Value*
Total Fat 1.5 g   2%
Saturated fat 0.3 g   1%
Polyunsaturated fat 0.6 g   
Monounsaturated fat 0.2 g   
Trans fat 0 g   
Cholesterol 0 mg   0%
Sodium 6 mg   0%
Potassium 223 mg   6%
Total Carbohydrate 75 g   25%
Dietary fiber 3.2 g   12%
Sugar 2.7 g   
Protein 13 g   26%
Vitamin A   0%   Vitamin C   0%
Calcium   2%   Iron   7%
Vitamin D   0%   Vitamin B-6   5%
Cobalamin   0%   Magnesium   13%

And if you eat the brown variety, you also get 12 g of fibre per 100g of dry pasta and the amount of carbs drops to 62 g or so.

[hellymedic]

Processing increases palatability, stability and availability of foodstuffs, especially those that are most energy-dense. It frequently increases energy density too.

The result is we (can easily) consume more than we need.

CAKE keeps for weeks, biscuits even longer. The combination of fat, sugar and starch, deliciously prepared make it possible to eat a HUGE portion which is many a slimmer's downfall.

Even worse is our habit of eating these between meals when we've not fully metabolised our last food.

At 4-6 kcal/g, we really need to watch our portion sizes or give this up altogether.

But I love my cake! I'm choosing tiny portions.

For myself, I won't go fully keto. I'll shrink carb portions and stretch the interval between meals.

[sojournermike]

CAKE keeps for weeks, biscuits even longer.

Now that is news!

[ian]

There's the fact that food is now almost always available. You can snack whenever, even if you are not hungry, it's a displacement activity and salve for boredom. Wander over to the vending machine, why not. In our office, people are eating constantly – they even get little boxes of snacks delivered, like little UN food parcels for people who might actually starve between lunch and their evening meal.

Then there's faddism. I'm not sure when it became normal for kids to 'not to eat' things. But now every parent I know regales me the list of things their children have decided not to eat, or they've gone gluten-free, or some other food-related weirdness. Certainly, when I grew up my mother was happy for me to choose not to eat something provided I didn't mind going hungry because I wasn't getting anything else.

[whosatthewheel]

Then there's faddism. I'm not sure when it became normal for kids to 'not to eat' things. But now every parent I know regales me the list of things their children have decided not to eat, or they've gone gluten-free, or some other food-related weirdness. Certainly, when I grew up my mother was happy for me to choose not to eat something provided I didn't mind going hungry because I wasn't getting anything else.

The two are linked... people are weak and pass on their weaknesses to the following generation. It doesn't help that conceiving a child these days is an enterprise worth of the whole department congratulating with lavish contributions for such display of fertility... such is the achievement that the child must be treated like some kind of deity and allowed every caprice.

Meanwhile mental health issues are sky rocketing... as well as obesity

It's just a completely fucked up society

[sojournermike]

Then there's faddism. I'm not sure when it became normal for kids to 'not to eat' things. But now every parent I know regales me the list of things their children have decided not to eat, or they've gone gluten-free, or some other food-related weirdness. Certainly, when I grew up my mother was happy for me to choose not to eat something provided I didn't mind going hungry because I wasn't getting anything else.

The two are linked... people are weak and pass on their weaknesses to the following generation. It doesn't help that conceiving a child these days is an enterprise worth of the whole department congratulating with lavish contributions for such display of fertility... such is the achievement that the child must be treated like some kind of deity and allowed every caprice.

Meanwhile mental health issues are sky rocketing... as well as obesity

It's just a completely fucked up society

replied in the Pub

[ianrobo]

Processing increases palatability, stability and availability of  of foodstuffs, especially those that are most energy-dense. It frequently increases energy density too.

Yes and in the past when cakes were made out of proper butter ... then sugar can be minimised as fat is a real taste but withdraw fat and what was added for taste ? Sugar

[ian]

I'm pretty sure most cakes are still made with 'proper butter.' I'm also generally against the practice of eating butter with a spoon.

[hellymedic]

CAKE keeps for weeks, biscuits even longer.

Now that is news!

[OT] Didn't you know that, traditionally, one tier of the wedding cake was kept to celebrate the emergence of firstborn, a few moths later? 

[SteveC]

CAKE keeps for weeks, biscuits even longer.

Now that is news!

[OT] Didn't you know that, traditionally, one tier of the wedding cake was kept to celebrate the emergence of firstborn, a few moths later? 

The first MrsC and I, who got married in July, saved the top tier of our cake for Christmas that year (there being no firstborn anywhere near being on the scene
which in retrospect was probably for the best)

[ian]

It's the butter and sugar that stop cake going bad. On this basis I deduce, with the power of science, that the key to immortality may be found at your local patisserie.

[chrisbainbridge]

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

I think your relationship with science is distorted. I have done science for a living for as long as I can remember.

Science works by critical mass. The days of "a man and his equation" are long gone and even in those days, there were a lot of scientists supporting the views of Newton, so it's not a case of the genius Vs the mass of ignorants. Historically we always liked to attribute discoveries to one individual (occasionally 2, if we really can't split a Watson from a Crick) but discoveries were a product of critical mass, not a moment of genius.

Referring to an "indie" author is always dangerous. There is a reason why there is a "scientific community" and there are "commonly accepted views"... humans like to think it's all a conspiracy to keep us in the dark ages, but it's not.

Without critical mass there is no life saving open heart surgery, there is no Mars Rover, there is no Boeing Dreamliner, there are no solar cells or whatever you think it is an advancement in mankind.

Following the "individual" is what Trump and Putin have based their campaigns upon and it's not good for the advancement of mankind.

Whilst the concept of critical mass is reasonable for total acceptance, there is no doubt at all that many things start with one or two people challenging the status quo.  The concept that bacteria cause stomach ulcers was nonsense for many years and the researchers were laughed off the platform whenever they tried to present the data.

i remember vividly a professor of surgery reckoning that 5 patients per year would be treated with ranitidine whilst waiting for surgery in the west of scotland.  It is now sold over the counter.

in hand surgery the concept of treating dupuytrens with needle aponeurotomy was laughable 12 years ago and colleagues threatened to report me to the GMC for doing it.  Even 5 years ago a straw poll found only 10% of surgeons doing it.  This autumn the whole audience did the procedure.

i could go on.  For me the lack of a critical mass often means the idea is right but the time has not arrived.

[ianrobo]

And critical mass can just be herding as people generally do not want to step outside the boundaries of normal in their profession

[ian]

There's a danger in disposing with consensus though – consensus can be wrong and is rarely static – but far more often the story isn't written in outliers like Helicobacter pylori. Fewer people seem able to evaluate evidence and instead simply pick anything that supports what they already believe – see also climate change, where the 'evidence' again is mostly cherry-picked individual studies and something someone saw on Youtube. A lot of dietary stuff seems to follow the same pattern.

[whosatthewheel]

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

I think your relationship with science is distorted. I have done science for a living for as long as I can remember.

Science works by critical mass. The days of "a man and his equation" are long gone and even in those days, there were a lot of scientists supporting the views of Newton, so it's not a case of the genius Vs the mass of ignorants. Historically we always liked to attribute discoveries to one individual (occasionally 2, if we really can't split a Watson from a Crick) but discoveries were a product of critical mass, not a moment of genius.

Referring to an "indie" author is always dangerous. There is a reason why there is a "scientific community" and there are "commonly accepted views"... humans like to think it's all a conspiracy to keep us in the dark ages, but it's not.

Without critical mass there is no life saving open heart surgery, there is no Mars Rover, there is no Boeing Dreamliner, there are no solar cells or whatever you think it is an advancement in mankind.

Following the "individual" is what Trump and Putin have based their campaigns upon and it's not good for the advancement of mankind.

Whilst the concept of critical mass is reasonable for total acceptance, there is no doubt at all that many things start with one or two people challenging the status quo.  The concept that bacteria cause stomach ulcers was nonsense for many years and the researchers were laughed off the platform whenever they tried to present the data.

i remember vividly a professor of surgery reckoning that 5 patients per year would be treated with ranitidine whilst waiting for surgery in the west of scotland.  It is now sold over the counter.

in hand surgery the concept of treating dupuytrens with needle aponeurotomy was laughable 12 years ago and colleagues threatened to report me to the GMC for doing it.  Even 5 years ago a straw poll found only 10% of surgeons doing it.  This autumn the whole audience did the procedure.

i could go on.  For me the lack of a critical mass often means the idea is right but the time has not arrived.

The difference is that the status quo on nutrition actually works. IF people did stick to the NHS guidelines on nutrition, they would lower their risk of cancer, heart disease and type 2 diabetes. Problem is the majority don't.

So why mess up with something that works and has decades of proved science behind, to take a step in the far less reliable science of keto diet?

Ulcer was very much a disease in need of a cure at the time. The prescription drugs (Tagamet, Ranidil and such) were dealing with the symptoms but not with the problem.
I can think of diseases very much in need of a cure, where mavericks proposed alternative approaches that didn't work... if you are in the medical profession maybe you have heard of the Di Bella protocol, it caused a lot of stir in Italy in the late 90s.

A short nice summary from wikipedia

"In 1963 Di Bella began his studies about some types of blood cancer. During the late 1980s, Di Bella developed a cocktail of drugs, vitamins and hormones (Melatonin, ACTH and Somatostatin) which he argued would be useful in fighting cancer. Following national exposure in 1997 and 1998, several cancer patients from around Italy traveled to his clinic seeking access to his "miracle cure". In 1998 Italian medical authorities (Ministero della salute), declared his treatment to be without scientific merit.[3] The final rejection of Di Bella's method was expressed in a letter (written on 30 December 2005) by the Chairman of the Board of Health, Mario Condorelli, to Health Minister Francesco Storace: "The working group of the Board of Health considers that it has no evidence of the effectiveness of "multitherapy Di Bella" and therefore does not recommend a new clinical trial; this could be not only ineffective but also harmful to the patients by denying them (or procrastinating) access to anti-cancer drugs of proven effectiveness.".[6]

According to the American Cancer Society: "Available scientific evidence does not support claims that Di Bella therapy is effective in treating cancer. It can cause serious and harmful side effects. ... [These] may include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, increased blood sugar levels, low blood pressure, sleepiness, and neurological symptoms."[7]

Physician Silvio Garattini described Di Bella's therapy for cancer as a "totally irrational association of drugs supported by absolutely no scientific evidence or data whatsoever."[4] "

[ianrobo]

Well this study is from Virta a group led by Stephen Phinney who is someone who is seen as the king of LC so is biased of course but does not hide it

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13300-018-0373-9

this is deep stuff but I read it a while ago and would be interested in thoughts on it. Declare an interest - massive fan of Phinney in regards to LC and performance.

[chrisbainbridge]

I love LCHF and follow such a diet but that paper is crap!

What the paper shows is that if you take motivated (self selected) individuals. And provide them with intensive social and medical support they do better. Seriously any changes in diet are lost in the statistical noise.

I could not get that study funded or approved in the UK