GPX OR NOT GPX?

[Exit Stage Left]

GPS enables older riders to cope with laney Audax routes, and extends their riding lives. Phones enable short planning horizons. Combine both of those effects, and organising open events becomes unnecessary.

The retired people who might have organised Audaxes at the weekend can get together a group perm midweek, at short notice, to take advantage of good weather.

All a lot simpler than the stuff in this thread.

[FifeingEejit]

This is the point I have tried to make upthread.  There's no great difficulty in filtering for events with a G in the facilities string - or (I would prefer) just marking such events with a little GPX logo in any list view - but there's no guaranteed correlation between the presence or absence of a 'G' and the availability or not of an Org-provided GPX file.

That's a data quality problem that all systems suffer from, if the people inputing the information get it wrong or the people providing the information don't provide details of the full situation then inaccuracies are inevitable.

You can only do so much to assist people with that, and it is rarely* a good excuse not to implement something that uses that data, implementing filters on the key could be enough to improve data quality from the inputer as once in place its more important that the info is right. (Carrot/Stick).

* The consequences of data input issues in the systems I work with are considerably greater than incorrectly stating that a GPS file will/won't be provided by an Audax organizer.  We have been unable to implement things because the source data often automatic feeds from 3rd party systems aren't suitable, but interfacing systems still seems to be an afterthought in the health care sector, and the alternative always seems to be a single sign on link into the other system's web front end where of course the data is absolutely spot on.

[FifeingEejit]

And while on the filters...
I note that Audax.uk uses a distance based locational filter; but aukweb uses regional filters.
But on aukweb I've noted that while Northumbrian Audaxes appear when I filter to "Scotland", Cumbrian ones don't.
But even from the top of Fife I can get to the south lakes faster than a vast swathe of Scotland!
So I'm intrigued as to how that works.

[S2L]

well, at least this thread has prompted me to continue writing my route sheet... I had been stuck at km 72 for 3 months... now I have made major progress and I made it to km 165*... onward and upward**

* In the time it took, I could have mapped a convincing GPX track for TCR... 

** I secretly enjoyed it 

[frankly frankie]

But on aukweb I've noted that while Northumbrian Audaxes appear when I filter to "Scotland", Cumbrian ones don't.

The Northumbrian ones presumably start from further north.  The filter uses Max and Min latitudes and longitudes.  For 'Scotland' the latitudes are 'BETWEEN 54.3 AND 59'.  (And as per your previous point, this does rely on the Organiser - no-one else - inputting the correct Lat and Long.)

[FifeingEejit]

But on aukweb I've noted that while Northumbrian Audaxes appear when I filter to "Scotland", Cumbrian ones don't.

The Northumbrian ones presumably start from further north.  The filter uses Max and Min latitudes and longitudes.  For 'Scotland' the latitudes are 'BETWEEN 54.3 AND 59'.  (And as per your previous point, this does rely on the Organiser - no-one else - inputting the correct Lat and Long.)

Ah ha! That makes sense.
Kendal is at 54.3 but IIRC Between is exclusive (I can't double check right now) so the boundary is just south of the top of Windermere; hence the Widnermere and Kendal rides not appearing, and on the other side of the island Richmond is just above 54.4 hence most VC167 events appearing.

Hope no-one wants to start an event from Twatt on Orkney though it's just over 59 

[Hot Flatus]

If it only fits where it touches - that would still be a game-changer.

Urban environments only, most likely, so I doubt it will change the game of audax unless people fancy a 200k round the suburbs of Birmingham.

[FifeingEejit]

5G needs something every few hundred meters eh?

Cool, can still head off towards Durness and disappear then 

[mattc]

Organisers thinking entrants expect everything handed to them is not isolated to Audax, or for that matter organizing events.

The bar by which an event is judged is set by the organizera of other events.

If the majority of events provide a gps file and results by Tuesday then that is what entrants end up expecting.

That causes issues for the outliers, and sometimes toys are ejected from prams and good organisers are lost.
Other times the organizer adapts their event management to their detriment and after a few years they are lost because of the workload.
Telling people what to expect in advance lets you keep working in a way that you already know works for you.


This isn't from 2 years in audax BTW, this is from 20+ years of assisting Motorsport organization, I've seen it all there before.

Aha .... that explains a lot. I was starting to wonder why you keep banging on about rallying in every audax thread ...   

[LittleWheelsandBig]

ESL, I was thinking of volunteering for night shift marshalling (or similar) for the 24TT as I've got a commitment on the Saturday.

We'll probably be at Espley for the night shift. I've got less appetite for filming the whole event these days, as I've done it so often.

There was an appeal for marshalls on the facebook page so I'm sure they would be grateful.

Facebook isn't an option but no doubt there are alternatives.

[rob]

ESL, I was thinking of volunteering for night shift marshalling (or similar) for the 24TT as I've got a commitment on the Saturday.

We'll probably be at Espley for the night shift. I've got less appetite for filming the whole event these days, as I've done it so often.

There was an appeal for marshalls on the facebook page so I'm sure they would be grateful.

Facebook isn't an option but no doubt there are alternatives.

@merseyroads24 on Twitter.

[frankly frankie]

The Northumbrian ones presumably start from further north.  The filter uses Max and Min latitudes and longitudes.  For 'Scotland' the latitudes are 'BETWEEN 54.3 AND 59'.  (And as per your previous point, this does rely on the Organiser - no-one else - inputting the correct Lat and Long.)

Ah ha! That makes sense.
Kendal is at 54.3 but IIRC Between is exclusive (I can't double check right now) so the boundary is just south of the top of Windermere; ...

Hope no-one wants to start an event from Twatt on Orkney though it's just over 59 

The BETWEEN syntax is inclusive and the Kendal ride has a lat of 54.344028 so that is a bit odd if it doesn't show up.
AUK does have members living in Orkney.

[Ian H]

Kim, I think it's pretty obvious that I am talking about a rider producing a gpx from a routesheet not from their imagination of where where the route might go, and that the debate was about the technical difficulty of using mapping websites.

Ah well, in that case it's unambiguous:  Creating a line-on-a-map (in any format) from a routesheet is much harder than creating a routesheet from a line on a map, as you nearly always need eyes-on-the-ground knowledge to parse the routesheet.  You inevitably end up arsing about in Streetview, and sometimes guessing.

From experience, I'd allow a max of 45 mins (perhaps an hour for a 600) to produce a GPX track with waypoints for all controls, including infos, from even the tersest of routesheets (I'm thinking Wessex series).  I think I explained my technique sometime ago upthread (and now lost in the noise). 

[Wycombewheeler]

i've seen quite a lot of people* relying on others for navigation. i don't see it as something strange, and they have an excuse not to do any work at the front..

*i've done it once or twice too

I recently did a local 100km populaire with a couple of non-AUK friends.  Neither of them had gps units, and I don't think they'd printed the rs.  I navigated.  If I'd DNF'd, they'd probably have got round using a combination of route memory/phones/sticking with others.  There was one chap riding I chatted to briefly whose garmin had thrown a wobbly, and so he didn't have gps navigation, and was hopping between groups, following others.  He did have the route on his phone, but no mount it seems.*

*clearly the 'self-sufficiency stakes' rise for 200km+

My old Garmin 510 fell over the morning of LWL I think I got as far as Swindon by memory when I got to a junction I was unsure of I had to wait for the next group to arrive.

[Exit Stage Left]

The most recent congregation to arrive in the broad AUK church has been the dot-watchers. Those inspired by ultra-racing. Ultimately they'll want to be catered for. I see that there are cheap tracker necklaces around, which could do the job.

This Personal Tracking GPS Necklace is multi-purpose and ideal as a…

Dementia Tracker / Alzheimer’s. (those that wander / the elderly)
Tracker for people with medical conditions. (e.g. at risk of falling / having seizures)
Tracker for Kids / Young Children
Tracker for people with mental health problems
Tracker for vulnerable individuals (e.g. learning difficulties like Autism or Down Syndrome)
Tracker for lone workers (Track your employees and keep them safe in the field)

https://www.techsilver.co.uk/product/personal-gps-jewellery/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhNCpgqWx4gIVA5ztCh35CALREAQYBSABEgKkrvD_BwE

I wonder where they would be most suitable. In rides with wide appeal, such as LEL, on rides which are as challenging as TCR, such as the Mille Pennines, or somewhere in the middle, such as BCM. The determining factor would be resource, how much profile the participants had, and how impressive the ride is as a test of cycling ability. I'd be quite interested in tracking Hippy's performance in the forthcoming Pendle 600.

[Pingu]

... I see that there are cheap tracker necklaces around, which could do the job...
...I wonder where they would be most suitable...

Round the neck?

[FifeingEejit]

The Northumbrian ones presumably start from further north.  The filter uses Max and Min latitudes and longitudes.  For 'Scotland' the latitudes are 'BETWEEN 54.3 AND 59'.  (And as per your previous point, this does rely on the Organiser - no-one else - inputting the correct Lat and Long.)

Ah ha! That makes sense.
Kendal is at 54.3 but IIRC Between is exclusive (I can't double check right now) so the boundary is just south of the top of Windermere; ...

Hope no-one wants to start an event from Twatt on Orkney though it's just over 59 

The BETWEEN syntax is inclusive and the Kendal ride has a lat of 54.344028 so that is a bit odd if it doesn't show up.
AUK does have members living in Orkney.

Aye, that's what I get for thinking/responding as I try and get out the door from work.
Think based on what I think I see rather than checking...


Which is an excuse to use training time.
SQL Server 2018

Code: [Select]

CREATE TABLE #Coords (locName VARCHAR(20), Lat NUMERIC(8,6) , Long NUMERIC(8,6))

INSERT INTO #Coords VALUES ('Kendal', 54.344028 , -2.747827);
INSERT INTO #Coords VALUES ('Twatt',  59.098355, -3.274058);
INSERT INTO #Coords VALUES ('Witherslack',54.244473, -2.860085);

SELECT * FROM #Coords WHERE Lat BETWEEN 54.3 AND 59

DROP TABLE #Coords

Result is:
Kendal   54.344028   -2.747827

Which is what was expected.
Rechecked the list and Tour Du Lakes is listed when you select Scotland, I just wasn't seeing it for the trees.
But does explain Tour of Reghed, it's (marginally) too far south!


As for Orkney, without using ferries other than to get there I've got 160km, but it dodges the amusingly named place, I'm sure I can find another 40, I see a DIY being formulated...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/30060865

and a 450 on Shetland, although there's something fishy with the elevation data...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/30060977

[Exit Stage Left]

... I see that there are cheap tracker necklaces around, which could do the job...
...I wonder where they would be most suitable...

Round the neck?

I've still got my PBP 2011 timing chip on one of my shoes. I reasoned that if someone put them on by mistake, I might still get a finish. Unlikely, as they're size 50 Sidi megas. But some size 48 Specialiseds did get mixed up at LEL. So it might pay to know where your shoes are.

GPS tracker insoles are also available, but are much more expensive. https://www.techsilver.co.uk/product/dementia-tracker-insoles-gps-smartsole/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjvvt3Lmx4gIVw7HtCh0DggU_EAQYASABEgIfpPD_BwE

[lmm]

The most recent congregation to arrive in the broad AUK church has been the dot-watchers. Those inspired by ultra-racing. Ultimately they'll want to be catered for. I see that there are cheap tracker necklaces around, which could do the job.

Some people already use Strava Beacon for that kind of thing.

[FifeingEejit]

The most recent congregation to arrive in the broad AUK church has been the dot-watchers. Those inspired by ultra-racing. Ultimately they'll want to be catered for. I see that there are cheap tracker necklaces around, which could do the job.

They'll of course be absolutely fine with creating their own route based on the control list though and possibly want a compulsory parcours before each control too.

[Exit Stage Left]

The most recent congregation to arrive in the broad AUK church has been the dot-watchers. Those inspired by ultra-racing. Ultimately they'll want to be catered for. I see that there are cheap tracker necklaces around, which could do the job.

Some people already use Strava Beacon for that kind of thing.

The most dramatic action takes place out of mobile phone range, so that's not much good. When I was filming Michael Broadwith's LEJOG record, the only point he fell behind schedule was on the climb to Drumochter.

It was pouring down, so I was disinclined to stand and wait, especially as he might have packed. So I went to where I knew there'd be dumb phone reception, phoned home and got an update. I wanted a drone shot around Carrbridge, and that means getting the drone into the air for as short a time as possible. So knowing timings is critical. Knowledge of the topography, sightlines and phone reception are all factors. Gadgets are a useful tool, but not without knowledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTFDLDE7o4

I do hope someone is keeping a running total of all the things we have to have to ride Audax. Completing PBP is within the reach of the fit and young, riding something they found in their parent's shed, with some new tyres. A one-time participation could probably be done for £500 with a lot of care and research.

[quixoticgeek]

The most recent congregation to arrive in the broad AUK church has been the dot-watchers. Those inspired by ultra-racing. Ultimately they'll want to be catered for. I see that there are cheap tracker necklaces around, which could do the job.

I met a young couple on a Dutch Audax who were doing their first ride, having been inspired to do so from dot watching the TCR.

When signing up for the Randonneurs NL events, there is a field for a Spot tracker link. If you have it, it's surprisingly useful for the organisers. As they all know I am going to be Lantern Rouge, I've taken to giving orgs the password to my Inreach tracking page, so they can see where I am at. Response from orgs has been generally positive about this. Meaning they don't have to worry about trying to contact my next of kin or something if it looks like I may be over time (happened once).

J

[Somnolent]

- Almost none look at or print the routesheet if they aren't planning to use it for navigation**

** and IMO it's their loss.  With a combination of pink line on GPS and a printed routesheet I've gone off route just twice in 9 years of audaxing.   Total extra distance less than 2 km,

I don't have a printer so if I don't get a routesheet in the post, I might not even look at the routesheet unless I need to so that I can do a GPX. I'm not willing to buy a printer that I'll hardly use and I'm not willing to go to the internet cafe to use theirs when I much prefer using the GPS anyway.
I don't feel that I've lost anything but I do think that I have gained because I can easily look at the route on a map before I ride very easily, whereas before, when I used routesheets, I wasn't always sure where I was going, just following a set of instructions until I got to the end ad seeing where they took me.

But if it's a bare-bones GPX track the control locations may not be obvious.   So what happens when route sheet (which specifies a particular control location) and the GPX diverge (which is not infrequent) in the vicinity of a control.   I'm looking at an example right now where not only do the routes diverge by a considerable distance but do so on the approach to a control establishment mentioned on  routesheet but which is at least 5km distant from the town mentioned on the Brevet Card,  Recipe for confusion on part of rider - and potentially on part of validator too who, at best, has different receipts depending on whether rider looked at routesheet or not.

[Feanor]

Yes, the location of controls can be non-obvious on a simple tracklog.
That's why my general workflow is:

-Download any tracklog the org may supply;
-Treat it with suspicion;
-Load it up in mapsource and inspect for general sanity;
-Read the routesheet and with the assistance of Google Streetview, divine the exact location of the controls;
-Create waypoints in mapsource with known-good control locations.

Info controls with wooly locations on the routesheet and are only revealed on the card are a pet peeve of mine, because it means I can't plot their exact location.

[Ian H]

Info controls with wooly locations on the routesheet and are only revealed on the card are a pet peeve of mine, because it means I can't plot their exact location.

That's fairly easy:  Put a waypoint where you should start looking &, if you can't memorise it, consult the brevet card at that point.