Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: MSeries on 20 October, 2008, 10:57:10 am
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Is it worth paying extra for DT Swiss Comp double butted spokes over ACI double butted ones ? Where is the cheapest source for these spokes ?
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Is it worth paying extra for DT Swiss Comp double butted spokes over ACI double butted ones ?
Yes
Where is the cheapest source for these spokes ?
Damn cheap spokes (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2438.0)
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Since it doesn't seem possible to get DT Swiss Comps in quantities smaller than 100 any more, I'll ask a different question
What's the next best thing ? Sapim Race ? why are ACI db spokes a poor choice ?
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Sapim Race
Lasers are a bit too skinny for my tastes - they wind up like no-one's business, and stretch if you put a shedload of tension on them. The ones I had also had aluminium nipples, which are the work of Stan.
I just don't know what ACI are like; I've used Sapin & DT and I know they're good.
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At Rose in Germany you can get single DT Swis comp spokes.
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Is it worth paying extra for DT Swiss Comp double butted spokes over ACI double butted ones ? Where is the cheapest source for these spokes ?
The reason why people are willing to pay extra for Sapim and DT Swiss spokes are because of their consistent high quality. This is because they both buy their spoke wire spools from Sandvik SMT, a large high tech materials company that makes the best quality spoke wire in the world.
Many other spoke companies have used less skilled or even dishonest spoke wire manufacturers, like the Chinese manufacturer that started to cheapen their manufacturing process which resulted in inferior spokes that caused the "great 2005 spoke scandal".
ACI Alpina is however a well known old spoke manufacturer that uses European spoke wire (more expensive but probably of more uniform higher quality than Chinese spoke wire), so their db spokes are probably of good quality. No personal experience though.
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Regards
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The great 2005 spoke scandal?
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I used Sapim Race for my rear wheel. Very nice, silky finish, seem very uniform. No problems with wind-up.
The elbow is beautifully shaped and interestingly not a right-angle.
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Try Chain Reaction Cycles and/or All Terrain Cycles. I think the latter only carries MTB lengths. DT are worth the money because building is so much easier - they're just more consistent.
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I've used Sapim and DT double butted spokes to build wheels and been happy with both. Sapim offer the Polyax nipple, which is rounded where it seats in the rim. This allows the nipple to seat properly in the rim even if the angle between the spoke and the rim is much less than 90˚, as with a 26" rim with a deep "V" section. I would expect the shape of the Polyax nipple to offer some advantage in any wheel, but more so as the angle between spoke and rim becomes more acute.
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The great 2005 spoke scandal?
Quad Cities Bicycle Club - Home of TOMRV (http://www.qcbc.org/recall.shtml)
See
"Widespread Spoke Failures"
Among the brands hit in the US alone where:
Fuji, Giant, Jamis, Pacific Cycle, Raleigh, Specialized, Trek and others.
The end result was much more damaging since the spokes was used in cheap bicycles all around the globe, and several big Chinese spoke manufacturers where hit by the problem. But the industry tend to not to speak too much about failures like this or Shimano's early versions of the notorious Nexus 8 IGH, or Mavic's self destructing R-SYS wheels etc.
Here is another blurb regarding the 2005 spoke problems:
Kore Launches Taiwanese Spokes With Sandvik Wire | Europe from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-miscellaneous/4146045-1.html)
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Regards
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ACI are fine, I've built all my wheels with them.
The reason why people are willing to pay extra for Sapim and DT Swiss spokes are because of their consistent high quality.
It's marketing.
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I've never tried ACI, but I find DT Competition far easier than Sapim Race. DT Revolution are pigs to build with, but you expect that with a 1.5mm centre section.
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ACI are fine, I've built all my wheels with them.
The reason why people are willing to pay extra for Sapim and DT Swiss spokes are because of their consistent high quality.
It's marketing.
I really don't think so. I have never even seen a Sapim commercial, and DT Swiss spoke marketing material really isn't that common. They are known because wheel builders use these brands, and they do so because a batch of bad spokes can ruin their reputation and their business. And bad spokes have been a recurring problem for many other spoke manufacturers.
If wheel manufacturers could get the same consistent spoke quality from other manufacturers in China at half the price, they would stop using expensive Sapim and DT Swiss spokes in a second.
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Regards
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I have never even seen a Sapim commercial, and DT Swiss spoke marketing material really isn't that common.
Don't that sponsor or supply to pro teams?
They have adverts in magazines. DT even has a whole book advertising their products disguised as a book on wheel building.
Sapim seems to be fairly recent, I don't recall seeing much mention of the them in the UK until a few years ago.
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Don't that sponsor or supply to pro teams?
All Pro teams have fat contracts with wheel manufacturers, not spoke manufacturers. AFAIK neither DT Swiss or Sapim sponsor any Pro Tour teams (DT Swiss sponsor some Continental Race Teams though).
They have adverts in magazines. DT even has a whole book advertising their products disguised as a book on wheel building.
I have never seen an Sapim advert, nor a DT Swiss advert that was about spokes. Not saying that they don't exist, but they really seem rare.
Schraners wheel book is published by DT Swiss, and like Park Tools "Blue Book" it is meant to sell DT Swiss stuff. But it can hardly be considered a media storm, I mean, most people that build wheels doesn't even own a book about it.
End users that build their own wheels are just a small part of their sales; most spokes goes to wheel manufacturers or professional wheel builders. And they are the ones that choose to pay more simply because of the consistent high quality of their spokes. As I said, most of their quality (and higher cost) is owed to the fact that they buy good stuff from Sandvik SMT.
To quote a manager from a new spoke company in Taiwan:
“Everyone wants the quality of European spokes but they do not want to pay for it. Making the spokes in Taiwan is slightly cheaper than making them in Europe, but there is no getting around the fact that if you want Sandvik quality wire, you are going to have to pay for it,”
Kore Launches Taiwanese Spokes With Sandvik Wire | Europe from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-miscellaneous/4146045-1.html)
Sandvik spoke wire is just recognized as the best quality one can make spokes of, so a lot of Sapims and DT Swiss' reputation rest on that quality.
Sapim seems to be fairly recent, I don't recall seeing much mention of the them in the UK until a few years ago.
Sapim was founded in 1918 and has long been regarding as a high quality spoke manufacturer.
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Regards
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From Sapim's UK distributor/importer:
Chicken Cycles (http://www.chickencycles.co.uk/brands.php)
Sapim has made high quality spokes and nipples in Belgium for the last 90 years. Focusing only on the connection between rim and hub, age long manufacturing techniques and experience, the latest R & D, very strict quality controls have led Sapim to become one of today's leading spoke manufacturers. Knowledge is gained from various lab test centres as well as Pro Tour and MTB racing
Sponsorship is not just a marketing tool. Sapim wants to give athletes the very best. Racing teams like Rabobank, Discovery, Quickstep, Gerolsteiner and Highroad are all supplied with Sapim spokes. Many national and international mountain bikers are also sponsored, providing valuable input from the racing circuit – the best test bench of all.
I don't think Sapim spokes were all that common in the UK a few years ago, perhaps Chicken became their importer not too long ago.
I have definitely seen DT spoke adverts in magazines and I wouldn't say they're really rare.
Schraners wheel book is published by DT Swiss, and like Park Tools "Blue Book" it is meant to sell DT Swiss stuff.
But the book does not actually say DT is behind it, there is no mention of DT being the publisher. It just looks like a book about wheel building, it seems to me to be an underhand method of promotion.
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I don't think Sapim spokes were all that common in the UK a few years ago, perhaps Chicken became their importer not too long ago.
Perhaps not as loose spokes in the UK, but many wheels, including high end wheels from e.g. Zipp has been using Sapim spokes for decades.
I have definitely seen DT spoke adverts in magazines and I wouldn't say they're really rare.
I have never seen such an advert, and I am surprised that DT Swiss have even made them considering how much more profitable it would be for them to advertise their wheels instead.
But the book does not actually say DT is behind it, there is no mention of DT being the publisher. It just looks like a book about wheel building, it seems to me to be an underhand method of promotion.
I can see I was wrong; DT Swiss isn't the publisher. I just thought so because Schraner works/worked for DT Swiss and they sell his book. I haven't read it since everybody says that Jobst Brandt's book is superior, but if it really is a badly disguised DT Swiss promotion book without any acknowledgment of its affinity with the firm, than I find it distasteful too.
However, I don't think any of this changes my view, that Sapims and DT Swiss' reputation and higher prices is because they consistently have delivered high quality spokes (because they use expensive but high quality spoke wire from Sandvik SMT), while many other spoke manufacturers have failed in this regard.
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Regards
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But the book does not actually say DT is behind it, there is no mention of DT being the publisher. It just looks like a book about wheel building, it seems to me to be an underhand method of promotion.
I can see I was wrong; DT Swiss isn't the publisher. I just thought so because Schraner works/worked for DT Swiss and they sell his book. I haven't read it since everybody says that Jobst Brandt's book is superior, but if it really is a badly disguised DT Swiss promotion book without any acknowledgment of its affinity with the firm, than I find it distasteful too.
However, I don't think any of this changes my view, that Sapims and DT Swiss' reputation and higher prices is because they consistently have delivered high quality spokes (because they use expensive but high quality spoke wire from Sandvik SMT), while many other spoke manufacturers have failed in this regard.
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Regards
My copy of Schraner's book carries an acknowledgment to "the DT family" in the dedication, and little or no other reference to DT except where called for (listing major spoke brands, describing a particular set of wheels, etc.). It doesn't strike me at all as a "badly disguised DT Swiss promotion book".
As the owner of both, I wouldn't say that Brandt's book is necessarily superior, just written from a different viewpoint. Brandt is an engineer with a degree from a highly regarded institution (Stanford University) and a wide range of experience inside and outside the bicycle industry. His book tends to emphasize the theoretical aspects of wheel building and he brings a fair bit of scientific rigor to his work. Schraner is a very competent wheelbuilder and mechanic with a lot of experience building wheels for bicycle racers. He tends to focus on what he and other race mechanic's have found effective, and has a lot of stories to tell about his experiences in the bike racing world. Either book would be perfectly suitable to a novice wheelbuilder who just wanted a good set of guidelines to build wheels with.
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I've just had a quick look through my 1999 copy and it does not mention any other spoke brand. The phrase "market leader DT SWISS" is used a lot, and "DT SWISS" and DT products are mentioned throughout the book. The specific wheels described (built for various riders) all have DT spokes. The promotion of DT in the book is fairly subtle but nevertheless it's there.
I've read that the book was commissioned by DT.
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Apparently the promotion of DT was too subtle for me. I read the book, found it entertaining and informative, and built a pair of wheels with Sapim spokes shortly thereafter.
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I've used ACI spokes on quite a few wheels now, mostly on non-dished fixed sets using their DB spokes - only problems I had were with spoke breakages after a very poor quality DIY wheel build, I've since rebuilt that one and had no problems whatsoever over a thousands miles or so of crappy potholed road riding.
Have to admit to using Sapim on the touring wheels though - I wanted every last ounce of re-assurance that those would be solid, and i took great care in building them too :D
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I've used ACI spokes on quite a few wheels now, mostly on non-dished fixed sets using their DB spokes - only problems I had were with spoke breakages after a very poor quality DIY wheel build, I've since rebuilt that one and had no problems whatsoever over a thousands miles or so of crappy potholed road riding.
Have to admit to using Sapim on the touring wheels though - I wanted every last ounce of re-assurance that those would be solid, and i took great care in building them too :D
Many miles on those wheels, now, Graham - hope you are well. The ACI Alpina DB spokes are half the price (24p cyclebasket) of Sapim Race (60p Spa C) or DT Comp (60p Tweeks) - all prices with nipples.
Apart from the ACIs being a little less polished, is there a difference in quality (comments from others who have actually used ACI spokes appreciated)? The ACI Alpinas have a slightly higher gauge (more is less) in the main length of the spoke.
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IME ACI spokes are often made from material that is slightly less strong than DT or Sapim. This doesn't stop you from building good wheels with them, but it may constrain you regarding skinny spokes, high tensions and low spoke counts.
I have also seen a few batches of ACI spokes where the tooling that formed the elbow bends was allowed to gall and material presumably built up on it until the spoke elbow shape was affected. The affected spokes fatigued and broke more easily, (despite stress-relief) to the extent that once I'd found out what the problem was, the wheel was best rebuilt (on one side only, the other side had unaffected spokes of a different length in it).
Presumably the spokes all came out of the same box when the wheel was built (I didn't build it initially) but not all spokes were affected in the same way. in this case you could actually feel the discontinuity on the inside of the J bend using your thumbnail, when one was present. However it is probably the case that you could have a defect that was small enough that you couldn't feel it, so that test isn't necessarily infallible; I examined the spokes under a microscope to be sure.
QA is a tricky thing; one way of looking at it is that no amount of 'process control' type QA will prevent you from ever making duff spokes, but that your QA (sampling/inspection) system ought to at least prevent the duff ones from going out the door.
I have seen even good spoke brands have variable quality; sometimes this just affects the finish or the butt length but other times it is more serious. For example I had heard of batches of Sapim spokes that went brittle in service and I didn't know whether to believe it or not. I have now seen such spokes for myself and I am endeavouring to find out 'why'. I suspect that the material may have been heat treated at the wrong temperature but that is only speculation at this stage.
cheers
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I have only positive experiences with ACI db ss spokes. A lot depends upon how well the wheel is built of course.
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IME ACI spokes are often made from material that is slightly less strong than DT or Sapim. This doesn't stop you from building good wheels with them, but it may constrain you regarding skinny spokes, high tensions and low spoke counts.
I have also seen a few batches of ACI spokes where the tooling that formed the elbow bends was allowed to gall and material presumably built up on it until the spoke elbow shape was affected. The affected spokes fatigued and broke more easily, (despite stress-relief)
How recent is this experience with ACi?
That was certainly a reputation that I remember from uk.rec.cycling (and probably r.b.tech) when Usenet was a thing - so what, 15, 20 years ago? - but my very limited experience (maybe 3 boxes?) hasn't been any worse than with DT or Sapim.
(Anecdote rather than data, obv.)
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its all anecdota I suppose; but reputations are made with difficulty and can be lost in an instant.
The worst QA problems I have found with DT spokes (hundreds of boxes used, all from the Swiss factory) are
- inconsistent butt lengths from box to box
- poor finishing on the swaged (thinnest) section
- stupid J-bend lengths in 14g spoke ends (for which you have the American importer to blame; this length became the standard for everyone else too, for a while)
- I once (and only once) found a single unthreaded spoke in a box of DT spokes.
In Sapim spokes (from the Belgian factory) the quality of the spokes in any one box looks excellent, and butt lengths are more consistent than in DT spokes. The butts are often shorter too so Sapim spokes usually work out a bit lighter (gauge for gauge) than DT ones. I worry that the Sapim logo (which is stamped next to the J bend) might weaken the spoke but I have never seen a spoke break there even when it has been gouged by the chain. I have seen a few nipples in Sapim bags which were 'blind' i.e. not drilled and tapped. I've used dozens of boxes myself and locally to me a good wheelbuilder uses Sapim and almost nothing else. He's used many hundreds of boxes and has very little bad to say about these spokes. I'm very interested to get to the bottom of the 'brittle spoke' instance I mentioned earlier.
The only comment I would make is that if you are in the habit of using standard weight DB spokes, and cut and thread them to fit, you need to keep more different lengths in Sapim than in DT; the short butts in Sapim mean that they can't be shortened by more than 5 or 10mm, whereas the longer butts in DT allow them to be shortened by more if necessary.
I've built least with ACI spokes and the butted ones are stronger than you might think in the skinny part because this is work-hardened. Even so they don't seem as hard (strong) as DT or Sapim. They are easier to 'set' and stress relieve though. The 'bad elbow' spokes I mentioned above were (I estimate) made about ten years ago. In recent years I have also seen black finished ACI spokes (in factory wheels) that went rusty, so maybe they make 'budget' spokes for bike factories in less corrosion resistant materials.
In addition to the wheels I have built myself I've had many wheels pass through my hands from a lot of builders/sources. If you get a wheel which is breaking spokes this is most commonly caused by the wheel not being stress-relieved. It can also be caused by the spokes being a bad fit in the hub, or kinked near the rim, amongst other things. In wheels where the stress relief isn't adequate, the spokes usually break at the J bend. However they can also break by the heads fatiguing and popping off instead. Modern wheelbuilding machines can be set up to stress-relieve the wheel but (for whatever reason, maybe the people running the machines don't understand the importance of it..?) the stress relief in most factory wheels isn't anywhere near adequate. Thus I recommend that any factory wheels (from big brand bikes) are best stress relieved (and the hubs properly serviced) when the wheels are new if you want to get the best out of them.
The situation is now complicated by the fact that both DT and Sapim have, in recent years, set up spoke-making factories in many other places. These spokes appear on factory wheels from Taiwan etc and are often indistinguishable from european made spokes. However they may not be of the same quality and indeed it is not clear to me that they use steel from the same sources as they always used to. So if you buy a box of Sapim or DT and they were made in europe, it is status quo; however if they come from a satellite factory it is not so clear that they will definitely be of identical quality. Currently if you buy DT or Sapim spokes in the UK via the usual channels you will get european-made spokes, but I don't exclude the possiblity that spokes from the satellite factories are 'leaking' into the retail market by various means.
cheers
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I do t like the finish on aci spokes. The range is poor too. They are cheap but in thousand of wheels sapim dont want to break so its difficult to change as I would know if aci are good in a few years time.
Sapim are also not that expensive. Lasers are fine on front wheels. Also the aci spoke has a 1.7mm midsection whi h means your building with d lights (nearly). The sapim race is thicker and stiffer resulting in more robust wheels. The aci spoke is better used in higher spoke wheels or ordinary spoke count if your a traditionalist. Ideally you use spokes witha thicker elbow for lower spoke counts. Aci dont offer triple butted spoke.
Aci spokes aldo seem soft in that they bend easily. I just dont like the feel.
In a hundred thousand or.more of sapim spokes used I have yet to find one malformed. Occasionally you find a blank or blank nipples but the spokes are good. Consistency if your a commercial builder is more Important that price.
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I like the way this thread is 11 years old and a story from 14 years ago is discussed