Author Topic: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat  (Read 10603 times)

Feanor

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #25 on: 27 December, 2016, 03:43:43 pm »
I've just had a quick look at these products.
They all seem to require user accounts with the manufacturer to work, is that right?

The devices must connect to your account on their server-in-the-sky, and the app does the same, and that's how the app discovers the device.
I suppose this provides 2 things:

1) Technical simplicity: Device makes an outbound connection to their servers. Users don't have to set up port forwarding and DNS records etc, and then point the app at it.
2) A revenue stream, as I expect a subscription will come into play at some point.

Can any of these be configured to operate as a direct connection between the app and the devices?
Or are you into roll-your-own territory?



Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #26 on: 27 December, 2016, 04:22:00 pm »
re. 2), little brother recently left his job as head of product development at a well known 'internet of things' company, the game he owned up to was trying to get everyone locked into their products* and make money through selling more stuff rather than ever going to subscription model.. I think I believe him!

* they work OK, I have a couple of free units installed at the rowing club and a friend's house where it turns the fishtank light on almost every time it's meant to. I don't have one because I couldnt think of a use.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #27 on: 27 December, 2016, 08:08:07 pm »
I've just had a quick look at these products.
They all seem to require user accounts with the manufacturer to work, is that right?
Honeywell Evohome will work as a many weekly programable thermostats without an internet connection or an account with Honeywell.

The internet connection & Honeywell account allows a copy of the the control panel on your iThing or similar. Honeywell will also email if your Heating system stops talking to the server.

(At least they got the basic timed operation independent of the server. The server only tweaks the program as required. They didn't make the mistake that the idiots designing a pet feeder did. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/27/petnet-auto-feeder-glitch-google)
Quote from: Kim
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Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #28 on: 27 December, 2016, 08:19:10 pm »
Yes, but again, the Internet connectivity is via a vendor-lock-in server-in-the-sky.

The devices are not just running their own little webserver that you connect to directly with the browser of your choice.
Because that would require the user ( normally on Dynamic IP and behind NAT ) to jump through D-DNS and Port Forwarding hoops to make the devices available on the Internet.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #29 on: 27 December, 2016, 08:41:24 pm »
I haven't been able to think of any real use for the "smart" light bulbs they sell yet...

For bodgy retrofits of lighting control to rented houses where you can't do it properly.  They're such a nasty solution that I'd only consider them worthwhile if you can't use the switches for disability reasons or something.

Using Smarttthings to make the lights go on upstairs when the kids go up the stairs and it's dark outside, and making them flash 5x if someone opens the front door.

TBH, smart lights have not been the best fun, but they were cheap on black friday.

Afasoas

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #30 on: 27 December, 2016, 08:43:32 pm »
Yes, but again, the Internet connectivity is via a vendor-lock-in server-in-the-sky.

The devices are not just running their own little webserver that you connect to directly with the browser of your choice.
Because that would require the user ( normally on Dynamic IP and behind NAT ) to jump through D-DNS and Port Forwarding hoops to make the devices available on the Internet.

This is exactly why I'm rolling my own. No concerns about the system running in safe mode either when internet connectivity is disrupted. And ironically for a self-spun project, fewer security concerns.

It can be blazingly simple too - cron to start and stop a perl script. Although I'm planning on something a bit more sophisticated and extensible when it's complete, with temperature sensors and radiator controls in each room. This looks hellishly expensive with many of the commercial systems.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #31 on: 27 December, 2016, 09:47:29 pm »
Yes, but again, the Internet connectivity is via a vendor-lock-in server-in-the-sky.

The devices are not just running their own little webserver that you connect to directly with the browser of your choice.
Because that would require the user ( normally on Dynamic IP and behind NAT ) to jump through D-DNS and Port Forwarding hoops to make the devices available on the Internet.
My point is that there isn't really a vendor lock-in. The system works fine, and is a far better heater control system than any that I have had before, when working without the internet or Honeywell's sever.

What we had before, which came with the house, was one bimetallic strip thermostat in the worst possible room in the house, and an electronic timer that had up to two "on" periods per day, and was really difficult to see and set. I don't think it even had a hot water thermostat, so probably whenever the hot water was on, the boiler was kept at its maximum temperature. The bathroom always got too hot because the control system was too stupid and had to have one radiator without a thermostatic valve.

We now have as many times as we want, separately on 10 zones, and at each time the set temperature changes, not just turning on or off. The current room temperatures and water temperature are visible on the control panel. The temperatures can be overridden at the control panel or the radiators.

The remote connection isn't used for any of what I have just described, which a far better system than I had before. Honeywell can't take away the local control and timing, any more than the manufacturer of the simple timer and thermostat could have done.

I don't actually use the remote bit. I suppose I might if there wasn't usually someone at home, or when we go on holiday. It could be that the holiday timer bit will actually need the remote bit. The simple timer which we binned, might have had a holiday timer.






Quote from: Kim
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robgul

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #32 on: 27 December, 2016, 09:53:26 pm »
As I said up-thread we have Hive on the heating system and a socket controller for the coffee machine . . . . I've now been given 2 more socket units and, at the moment, am struggling to find anything to use them for . . .  suggestions????

The Hive light bulbs seem pretty pointless to me (I assume the bulb has a life and at the cost they are expensive) - a good old £3 from Ikea mechanical time switch works fine with some plug-in lights in the house, just need to remember to change the time when the clocks change.

I also have the BT BB router on a time switch to go off for about 4 hours during the night to a) save a tiny amount of electricity and b) as recommended for security to get a new IP address every day (we were also doing (legit) mass-mailings and sometimes the IP address got blacked temporarily)

Rob

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #33 on: 27 December, 2016, 09:56:31 pm »
Yes, but again, the Internet connectivity is via a vendor-lock-in server-in-the-sky.

The devices are not just running their own little webserver that you connect to directly with the browser of your choice.
Because that would require the user ( normally on Dynamic IP and behind NAT ) to jump through D-DNS and Port Forwarding hoops to make the devices available on the Internet.
My point is that there isn't really a vendor lock-in. The system works fine, and is a far better heater control system than any that I have had before, when working without the internet or Honeywell's sever.

What we had before, which came with the house, was one bimetallic strip thermostat in the worst possible room in the house, and an electronic timer that had up to two "on" periods per day, and was really difficult to see and set. I don't think it even had a hot water thermostat, so probably whenever the hot water was on, the boiler was kept at its maximum temperature. The bathroom always got too hot because the control system was too stupid and had to have one radiator without a thermostatic valve.

We now have as many times as we want, separately on 10 zones, and at each time the set temperature changes, not just turning on or off. The current room temperatures and water temperature are visible on the control panel. The temperatures can be overridden at the control panel or the radiators.

The remote connection isn't used for any of what I have just described, which a far better system than I had before. Honeywell can't take away the local control and timing, any more than the manufacturer of the simple timer and thermostat could have done.

I don't actually use the remote bit. I suppose I might if there wasn't usually someone at home, or when we go on holiday. It could be that the holiday timer bit will actually need the remote bit. The simple timer which we binned, might have had a holiday timer.

Understood, thanks.

But it was specifically the remote IP enabled stuff that interested me, so that's what I was focussed on.
Because I now have a specific need for that.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #34 on: 27 December, 2016, 10:01:56 pm »
I also have the BT BB router on a time switch to go off for about 4 hours during the night to a) save a tiny amount of electricity and b) as recommended for security to get a new IP address every day (we were also doing (legit) mass-mailings and sometimes the IP address got blacked temporarily)

Hmm, that's not normally recommended.

Dropping the ADSL connection like that will be seen as a line fault at the exchange, and when you re-connect, you might find that over time they have applied interleaving and rate-throttling automatically at the BRAS because of the apparent unstable line conditions.

Changing your public IP is really not a security measure.

How are you actually doing the mass mailings?
Do you have your own mail server at your house?
Or are you sending via a 3rd party ( your ISP's mail server, MailChimp, etc )?

If you are not running the mailserver locally, then the mailing list is not what's blocking you, because the mail will not appear to be coming from your IP.
In fact, picking up a new IP every day will increase the likelihood of picking up a 'blocked' IP from someone else's misdemeanours.





Kim

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #35 on: 27 December, 2016, 11:51:04 pm »


Hmm, that's not normally recommended.

Dropping the ADSL connection like that will be seen as a line fault at the exchange, and when you re-connect, you might find that over time they have applied interleaving and rate-throttling automatically at the BRAS because of the apparent unstable line conditions.

AIUI the DLM ignores the first couple of reconnects per day specifically because people habitually turn their equipment off.

ian

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #36 on: 28 December, 2016, 05:30:13 pm »
I'm umming and ahhing one of these at the moment. Mostly because I climbed into my warm bed the other night and was just about to doze off when my wife mumbled 'did you set the heating to come on later in the morning...' and then I had to get out of toasty bed and go downstairs to wrestle with the frankly fiddlesome controller that always takes five times as long to set that it ought to. Being able to set it with my phone would have solved that #firstworldproblem without getting chilly feet.

Do they have a better UI than the average wall controller? I think that would sell it to me. Some simple sliders just to tell the blood thing when to come on and go off. I don't need sophisticated AI. I don't want SkyNet running my heating. I'm just cooling the house from the tropical excess that the inlaws insist upon. I'm dazzling satellites with our IR emissions.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #37 on: 28 December, 2016, 07:44:26 pm »
I'm umming and ahhing one of these at the moment. Mostly because I climbed into my warm bed the other night and was just about to doze off when my wife mumbled 'did you set the heating to come on later in the morning...' and then I had to get out of toasty bed and go downstairs to wrestle with the frankly fiddlesome controller that always takes five times as long to set that it ought to. Being able to set it with my phone would have solved that #firstworldproblem without getting chilly feet.

Do they have a better UI than the average wall controller? I think that would sell it to me. Some simple sliders just to tell the blood thing when to come on and go off. I don't need sophisticated AI. I don't want SkyNet running my heating. I'm just cooling the house from the tropical excess that the inlaws insist upon. I'm dazzling satellites with our IR emissions.

This is the Nest interface. The useful "nest sense" functions other than the "we know when you want to be hot better than you" stuff is "time to heat" and "true radiant". The former tells you how long it takes to hit the requested temp when you twirl the dial. The latter optionally takes the temps on your schedule and taking account of the current temp, turns the heating on so it hits them at the time you request them, rather than just turning the heating on or off at the times they are set.

The third image is the one you are interested in. Yes - you just add a dot then move it around with your finger - left / right for time, up / down for heat, hold down to copy the lot or paste what you copied.This is my default setting for nobody being home other than me. I've dicked about with smartthings so that them coming home does stuff with heat and light, and overrides their dicking around with the thermostat - they can turn it up a bit, but not too much - no more sweating at 22 degrees at 11pm  :thumbsup:








Mrs Pingu

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #38 on: 28 December, 2016, 08:26:32 pm »
I would love to know how it works out how long it will take to get to the right temperature in a poorly insulated granite pile where the outside temperature ranges between 10 and -5°C. Also,  38%rh, I wish ;).
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

David Martin

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #39 on: 28 December, 2016, 08:41:51 pm »
By tracking how long it takes in previous incarnations. It will work out a function for the loss rate, the current temperature inside and should also use the current external temperature and wind.

Then on colder days it will start heating earlier. On windier days it will start earlier. On really cold and windy days it should say 'your current boiler will never get it up to temperature, give up and go to the pub'
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Mrs Pingu

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #40 on: 28 December, 2016, 08:52:23 pm »
Guessed that but I imagine it takes a while to learn depending on weather conditions experienced.

OK, next question.  For a boiler with a analog dial on the front that supposedly controls the temperature of the water going to the rads, presumably this still has to be controlled by the meatware?
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #41 on: 28 December, 2016, 09:09:52 pm »
Yes, the boiler stat will normally be set once and left alone, much as it normally would.
In general, people don't need to change this.

The Smart Stats will be wired either in place of the existing wall stat or timer, depending on were these things are and the wiring layout.

robgul

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #42 on: 28 December, 2016, 09:46:42 pm »
From feedback from others with the thing - I'd steer clear of Nest . . . it just tries to be too clever, but isn't that bloody Google all over?

The Hive interface is very simple, intuitive and flexible - it just does what you ask it to do.  You can set a number of time windows each day, different for every day if you want - and set temperatures for each time window.   Simple to set "holiday mode" (or "away for a day or two) - just set start and end times and it obeys with the boiler off, resuming its programmed status at the due date/time.

Ours is also set to default at 7 degrees in the house to fire up the heating for frost protection (highly unlikely to get that low).

The Hive socket is equally flexible

Rob

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #43 on: 28 December, 2016, 10:40:16 pm »
Hi
 I think you are all being slightly  mislead by these so called  smart controls.  They really are only a switch on/off as they have no control over the boiler  output.
They can not look at your outside  temp as the do not come with a out door sensor to look at your outside temp (they may look at a weather  app but it's not a true reading of your houses outside temp)
. If you had whether compensation as supplied by some  boiler manufacturers these look  at indoor temp and out door temp, then then look at flow and return  temp they will then adjust/modulate the boiler output to work most efficiently and save you the most money on your fuel bills.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #44 on: 29 December, 2016, 07:39:46 am »
Hi
 I think you are all being slightly  mislead by these so called  smart controls.  They really are only a switch on/off as they have no control over the boiler  output.
They can not look at your outside  temp as the do not come with a out door sensor to look at your outside temp (they may look at a weather  app but it's not a true reading of your houses outside temp)
. If you had whether compensation as supplied by some  boiler manufacturers these look  at indoor temp and out door temp, then then look at flow and return  temp they will then adjust/modulate the boiler output to work most efficiently and save you the most money on your fuel bills.
I would disagree with your points. I have the Heat Genius system (awaiting installation) which allows the house to be split into zones. Each zone can be individually controlled, with it's own sensor. So if I am working in a single room and need the heating on, I can have the boiler heat the water for just that room. That is much more efficient than heating the whole house. Admittedly I could achieve something similar by turning off all the other radiators, but would still be limited by a thermostat located in a cold room.

In respect to the time the heating starts, the temperature sensor is inside rather than outside, one sensor per zone. If the kitchen needs to be at say 18 degrees at 7am, the boiler will start at the appropriate time to bring the temperature up to that level in that room. So it starts earlier when the kitchen temperature is cooler, and later when the ambient temperature is warmer.

As yet I cannot report on the savings made. Taking a conservative stance against what the manufacturer claims can be achieved, I am expecting a payback period of 3 years. This is only really possible when you have multiple people and variable heating needs. Heat Genius would be overkill for a small family unit with consistent needs.

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Jaded

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #45 on: 29 December, 2016, 10:03:21 am »
The Hive system can do two zones, but it certainly is not an on off system. It allows up to 6 slots per day of different temperatures. On-off systems wouldn't do the differing temp part of that.

Plus you can turn it on or off or change the temperature from anywhere you are in the house, or even in the world.

I heard someone might invent something like that for phone calls. Extraordinary - who would want to be able to have a phone conversation whilst not attached to their house by a curly wire. Or outside in a red shower cubicle that's been used as a toilet  ???
It is simpler than it looks.

ian

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #46 on: 29 December, 2016, 11:04:49 am »

The third image is the one you are interested in. Yes - you just add a dot then move it around with your finger - left / right for time, up / down for heat, hold down to copy the lot or paste what you copied.This is my default setting for nobody being home other than me. I've dicked about with smartthings so that them coming home does stuff with heat and light, and overrides their dicking around with the thermostat - they can turn it up a bit, but not too much - no more sweating at 22 degrees at 11pm  :thumbsup:


Yeah, I think that has to be an improvement on the BG controller. Press, press, press, press, press, fuck, start again, press, press, pressn. I don't have a sophisticated heating system, I've faffed with the thermostatic valves around the house to achieve a degree of perfection when the dumb stat on the hallway wall is set to 18 degrees. It's mostly nudging the time around, like this week when I arise from my slumber at 10am rather than workdays when my wife starts banging around the house like it's an invasion by Hannibal and his elephants at 6am. And avoiding the last minute pre-holiday setting while the taxi to the airport blocks the lane outside. I was waiting for the old boiler to give up the ghost but it seems to be lingering and I'm not minded to replace until it's necessary. In our previous place, a tall three floor townhouse, that had zones and a heating system that looked like a battleship engine designed by Willy Wonka, and frankly was a pain in the rear since the designers didn't seem to have twigged that there was a tall stairwell up the middle of the house and that, well, warm air rises.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #47 on: 29 December, 2016, 01:35:03 pm »



Yeah, I think that has to be an improvement on the BG controller. Press, press, press, press, press, fuck, start again, press, press, pressn. I don't have a sophisticated heating system, I've faffed with the thermostatic valves around the house to achieve a degree of perfection when the dumb stat on the hallway wall is set to 18 degrees. It's mostly nudging the time around, like this week when I arise from my slumber at 10am rather than workdays when my wife starts banging around the house like it's an invasion by Hannibal and his elephants at 6am. And avoiding the last minute pre-holiday setting while the taxi to the airport blocks the lane outside.

The interface is really easy - doubt it takes a minute to do a whole week of scheduling.The home/away assist would turn it down to the "eco" setting when it figured out nobody was in, so you wouldn't need to figure at all if you didn't want to and didn't mind coming home to a cold house / having to turn the heating up in app when you got back to the airport.

From feedback from others with the thing - I'd steer clear of Nest . . . it just tries to be too clever, but isn't that bloody Google all over?


It's only clever if you tell it to be. Even then, you just have to read a couple of paragraphs to understand what it's going to do. Out of the box, it is just the same as Hive.

BrianI

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #48 on: 29 December, 2016, 02:16:17 pm »
I have one of the older hive systems, with the old push button wireless thermostat.  Dad bought it for me as an early xmas present a couple of year back when I was getting boiler it's annual service from Scottish Gas, and they had them on offer. Seeing as my boiler has the old fashioned rotating timer switch for setting on/off times at least I can now easily program the heating.

Although I  can't say I really use all of it's features, I certainly don't use the roaming mode when turns the heating off when it detects you and your mobile phone have left the building.  Since I have pet birds at home, I tend to leave the heating on at ~15c all day, so that they don't catch a chill.  If it ever packed in, I'd probably just go for a bog standard wireless room stat / programmer.

Is NEST worthwhile and does it replace thermostatic radiator valves
« Reply #49 on: 20 November, 2017, 11:41:50 am »
I own a small office building which is essentially a 2 bedroom house.

We replaced the central heating boiler 2 years ago and it is now super efficient.

our problem is that the thermostatic valves on the radiators are stiff to turn and tend to be left open so that we end up with an office that is roasting hot.  We have 4 radiators in total down stairs.

I could replace the valves heads but the valve for the largest radiator is stuck behind a desk and is clearly very inefficient.

I have looked at having a NEST fitted but not sure whether it would be worthwhile.  I presume that if the NEST thermostat controls everything then I do not need thermostatic valves.  Is that correct?  The floor area is low enough that one thermostat could very well control everything I think.

Alternatively I can get a wifi thermostat and 4 wireless thermostatic valves but that does not modulate the boiler at all.

Any advice would be very gratefully received.