Campagnolo "Differential" brakes - Yay or Nay?

[Oxford_Guy]

Have been looking at Campagnolo brakes for my Mercian road bike build, these come (depending on model) in both standard dual-pivot front and rear, or as a "differential" set of dual pivot front, single pivot rear.

I think the idea of the differential brakes is that a) you're less likely to lock-up the rear wheel and you get a bit more modulation range and b) the rear brake is a little lighter.

Obviously most of the braking force on a bike is with the front brake.

See: https://www.campagnolo.com/UK/en/CampyWorld/Products/standard_and_differential_braking_systems

The thing is, I'd prefer the pre-Skeleton Campagnolo brakes, as think these look better and will be easier to keep clean (less nooks and crannies), but almost all the ones I've seen for sale seem to be the "differential" sort. Are there any issues with these, or are they a just as good a choice as DP front AND rear? Thanks

[giropaul]

I use both sorts . It isn’t an issue, you just squeeze as hard as you need to to get the result you want. Decent brake blocks and regularly cleaned rims matter more.

PS the double pivot ones stay centred better.

[Brucey]

the rear brake has a lower MA. But then the rear brake is usually weaker anyway because the cable is longer and has more frictional losses. So one way of looking at this is (esp if you are thinking of using the brakes at full reach in order to fit mudguards)  with low MA together with cable losses, the leeway before the brake isn't really powerful enough is somewhat decreased.

BTW as with SP front brakes, if the cable housing run into the brake caliper is short/restrained, it interferes with the action of the brake, and interferes more as the brake blocks wear. With many SP brakes they only work evenly if a drop of oil is applied to the spring mounts on a regular basis.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

I use both sorts . It isn’t an issue, you just squeeze as hard as you need to to get the result you want. Decent brake blocks and regularly cleaned rims matter more.

PS the double pivot ones stay centred better.

Okay, that's useful to know. The (2006-era) Chorus ones with the hidden bolt look a little nicer than the Centaur ones, but are there any other differences  e.g. stainless hardware, ball bearings instead of bushings etc.? Looks like some of the Centaur hardware may be chromed not stainless steel (like the cable adjuster).

[Oxford_Guy]

the rear brake has a lower MA. But then the rear brake is usually weaker anyway because the cable is longer and has more frictional losses. So one way of looking at this is (esp if you are thinking of using the brakes at full reach in order to fit mudguards)  with low MA together with cable losses, the leeway before the brake isn't really powerful enough is somewhat decreased.

So SP not such a good idea with mudguards??

BTW as with SP front brakes, if the cable housing run into the brake caliper is short/restrained, it interferes with the action of the brake, and interferes more as the brake blocks wear. With many SP brakes they only work evenly if a drop of oil is applied to the spring mounts on a regular basis.

Okay, maybe DP front and back would be better. I have found a pair of NOS Chorus ones 1996-era that are both DP, though they don't have the hidden front bolt (not a big deal), but am not sure if the older brakes have other issues.

[Brucey]

Brake caliper MAs are (with the brake blocks in the middle of the slots) about 1 and 1.5 respectively for SP and DP brakes as pictured. With the brake blocks in the bottom of the slots (to make as much room as possible for mudguards) MA values are more like 0.8 and 1.25 respectively.

I'd probably prefer better brakes than that; If you start with a deeper drop DP caliper (which is made with longer arms at the top, i.e. to be 1.5MA with the blocks in the middle of the slots) you can have ~1.5MA front and rear. This translates to a front brake that is ~25% stronger and a rear brake that is almost twice as good as the SP brake would be.

cheers

[De Sisti]

Brucey, you're using lots of abbreviations. Can you spell out the full word(s) followed by the
abbreviation in brackets, and then continue with the abbreviations (so that one knows to what
you refer). Just as they do in journalism. Thanks.

[DuncanM]

SP = single pivot
DP = dual pivot
MA = mechanical advantage (leverage multiplier)

[giropaul]

I use both sorts . It isn’t an issue, you just squeeze as hard as you need to to get the result you want. Decent brake blocks and regularly cleaned rims matter more.

PS the double pivot ones stay centred better.

Okay, that's useful to know. The (2006-era) Chorus ones with the hidden bolt look a little nicer than the Centaur ones, but are there any other differences  e.g. stainless hardware, ball bearings instead of bushings etc.? Looks like some of the Centaur hardware may be chromed not stainless steel (like the cable adjuster).

Super Record has titanium hardware - lighter, but more importantly for me, no chrome to keep on top of.

[Oxford_Guy]

I use both sorts . It isn’t an issue, you just squeeze as hard as you need to to get the result you want. Decent brake blocks and regularly cleaned rims matter more.

PS the double pivot ones stay centred better.

Okay, that's useful to know. The (2006-era) Chorus ones with the hidden bolt look a little nicer than the Centaur ones, but are there any other differences  e.g. stainless hardware, ball bearings instead of bushings etc.? Looks like some of the Centaur hardware may be chromed not stainless steel (like the cable adjuster).

Super Record has titanium hardware - lighter, but more importantly for me, no chrome to keep on top of.

Same for Record I think. For Chorus, I think I may have read somewhere that it uses stainless steel hardware throughout, which if not a wright weenie (I'm not particularly, given I always ride steel bikes), which would have pretty much the same effect.

[Samuel D]

When braking lightly in fast, sweeping corners in the wet, i.e. near the limit of traction, you want about the same braking at both wheels to avoid slipping. Since the rear brake is already weaker for the reason Brucey states, I wouldn’t want to add to that inequality with a single-pivot brake at the rear only.

I think single-pivot brakes have useful advantages, especially for light male riders who don’t need much mechanical advantage, but I’d want both brakes to be the same.

[Oxford_Guy]

When braking lightly in fast, sweeping corners in the wet, i.e. near the limit of traction, you want about the same braking at both wheels to avoid slipping. Since the rear brake is already weaker for the reason Brucey states, I wouldn’t want to add to that inequality with a single-pivot brake at the rear only.

I think single-pivot brakes have useful advantages, especially for light male riders who don’t need much mechanical advantage, but I’d want both brakes to be the same.

Well I'm about 11 1/2 stone (74Kg) and they will be going a lightweight (for steel) road bike with non-oversized 853 Pro Team tubing, no rack, 23 or 25mm tyres, no mudguards most of the time and minimal other luggage (small saddle bag e.g. Carradice Barley, at most). It's intended for mostly spring/summer use and not for commuting or loaded touring. Does that change things at all?

Ideally I'm wanting to use pre-Skeleton Campagnolo brakes, preferably the sort with the hidden front bolt, but think the only ones with DP front AND rear are some pre-2006 Record, which are hard to find. 2006 Chorus are easier to find, but SP at the back...

[Samuel D]

It wouldn’t change anything for me. I see no benefit to mixed front and rear brakes but only downsides.

I’m not familiar with modern Campagnolo brakes (I do have a pair of amazingly beautiful Super Record single-pivot sidepull brakes that I’m gathering up the courage to try with modern brake levers, old Campagnolo brake levers being prohibitively expensive in the long run).

Currently cyclists are enamoured with low lever pressure (see the popularity of hydraulic disc brakes), but that seems a pointless fixation to me since I’ve never encountered a situation where that has been important. Contrariwise, I’ve often skidded in panic-brake situations and I often feather the brakes on fast, wet corners – a situation that would require unreasonably delicate modulation if the brakes were very powerful.

[Oxford_Guy]

Well I did have my eye on a lovely looking pair of SP Campagnolo Athena D500 brakes (they look similar but Monoplanars, but a bit lower spec)... Not sure they will provide enough braking force, though.

[hubner]

Well I did have my eye on a lovely looking pair of SP Campagnolo Athena D500 brakes (they look similar but Monoplanars, but a bit lower spec)... Not sure they will provide enough braking force, though.

I'm sure they will send you over the bars if you squeeze hard enough!

[Oxford_Guy]

Well I did have my eye on a lovely looking pair of SP Campagnolo Athena D500 brakes (they look similar but Monoplanars, but a bit lower spec)... Not sure they will provide enough braking force, though.

I'm sure they will send you over the bars if you squeeze hard enough!

One downside is the limited options for better modern brake pad compounds e.g. Swissstop

[tatanab]

One downside is the limited options for better modern brake pad compounds e.g. Swissstop

Why?  Simple buy the brake blocks in shoes instead of blocks alone.  In modern speak that might be brake pads, or is it cartridges and cartridge holders - things were so much easier before newspeak took over.   I use Shimano compatible shoes in Campag brakes no problem - and many others.  The thing that does not work is modern (ish) Campag shoes in other manufacturers stirrups (possibly in older Campag brakes as well).  This is because the Campag mounting sleeve nut is a larger diameter than Shimano.

[giropaul]

Well I did have my eye on a lovely looking pair of SP Campagnolo Athena D500 brakes (they look similar but Monoplanars, but a bit lower spec)... Not sure they will provide enough braking force, though.

I’m definitely on the heavier end of rider, and used these monoplaners in crit sand town centre races for ages. I never felt under- braked. 

[Oxford_Guy]

Well I did have my eye on a lovely looking pair of SP Campagnolo Athena D500 brakes (they look similar but Monoplanars, but a bit lower spec)... Not sure they will provide enough braking force, though.

I’m definitely on the heavier end of rider, and used these monoplaners in crit sand town centre races for ages. I never felt under- braked.

Was that using the original-style brake blocks?

[giropaul]

Well I did have my eye on a lovely looking pair of SP Campagnolo Athena D500 brakes (they look similar but Monoplanars, but a bit lower spec)... Not sure they will provide enough braking force, though.

I’m definitely on the heavier end of rider, and used these monoplaners in crit sand town centre races for ages. I never felt under- braked.

That’s all we had in those days.

Was that using the original-style brake blocks?

[Oxford_Guy]

One downside is the limited options for better modern brake pad compounds e.g. Swissstop

Why?  Simple buy the brake blocks in shoes instead of blocks alone.  In modern speak that might be brake pads, or is it cartridges and cartridge holders - things were so much easier before newspeak took over.   I use Shimano compatible shoes in Campag brakes no problem - and many others.  The thing that does not work is modern (ish) Campag shoes in other manufacturers stirrups (possibly in older Campag brakes as well).  This is because the Campag mounting sleeve nut is a larger diameter than Shimano.

Well you could do that, but modern brake shoes in the old style Campag brakes would just look wrong to some eyes

[Oxford_Guy]

Hmmm... I might be tempted to get a pair of Dual Pivot front AND rear silver Campagnolo Athena Skeleton brakes instead, think those ones are still pretty shiny, unlike the newer Potenza ones, which looked a rather dull silver (as is much of the Potenza groupset) in places when I saw a set in the flesh. They look a bit more fiddly to keep clean than the older pre-Skeleton type, though.

[valkyrie]

I've got Chorus Differential brakes and they work just fine, I've never noticed the rear being especially weak. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't notice the weight difference if I had DP on the back. Just buy the cheapest or prettiest option.

[Oxford_Guy]

I've got Chorus Differential brakes and they work just fine, I've never noticed the rear being especially weak. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't notice the weight difference if I had DP on the back. Just buy the cheapest or prettiest option.

Thanks, does the SP provide any less clearance than the DP brake (for running 23mm tyres with mudguards occasionally)?

Think I'll either go for 2006-era Chorus differential or more recent DP Athena, pros and cons for each.

[Oxford_Guy]

BTW I managed to pick up a lightly-used set of hidden bolt 2005-2008 era (I think) Campagnolo Record Titanium Dual Pivot (front AND rear) brakes in the end, off eBay. They might need a few fastenings replacing, but otherwise look very nice:

(click to expand)












Not sure if the nut on the back of the rear one (on the left) is meant to be split like this, though?



Compared to the front brake:



Side by side:



I can't see that nut listed as a spare part, though - think this is the correct exploded parts diagram (click to expand):