[HAMR] Current thoughts on the record attempt?

[Jaded]

Steve has said in the past he doesn't like drafting. It puts too much pressure on both parties. No idea what his current thoughts are.

[Bianchi Boy]

Steve has said in the past he doesn't like drafting. It puts too much pressure on both parties. No idea what his current thoughts are.

That is interesting because all my slowest 400km rides have been in groups riding the Arrow. Solo I have been much quicker. There again this is not a good comparison because I would not expect the group to slow when riding with Steve, as it does on the Arrow for a riding who is having a bad patch.

All the fastest rides I have done have been drafting and have been for shorter times. There is a mental strain with group riding as the concentration levels must be higher. The higher the speed the greater the concentration. It takes time to trust other riders - how close can I get to his wheel? Can I overlap to avoid braking? if he is twitchy I cannot. Starting to slow, when will he finish his turn? I can understand Steve's reluctance.

As for speed there is a balance here with recovery time. To get 8 hours sleep a night you need to be awake for 16, riding for thirteen and eating plus other stuff for about three means you need to ride at over 16mph average. That is a tough pattern, but I wonder if the sleeping can be reduced in the long term. We all go sleep light for a few days on long rides. Takes me a week to get over PBP/LEL, but the LEJoG where I did 120 miles a day I could have gone on forever. I think this was mainly because of sleep rather than physical tiredness.

I think sleep is very important and Steve needs to be a little faster to get enough. But all is not lost on the current attempt, if he can speed up.

BB 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

To get the record on the restart, Steve needs to average about 220 miles per day, somewhat more than 15 mph for 14 hours every day till August. How many weeks has Steve averaged 220 daily miles in the past year?

[Arry-R]

To get the record on the restart, Steve needs to average about 220 miles per day, somewhat more than 15 mph for 14 hours every day till August. How many weeks has Steve averaged 220 daily miles in the past year?

Sadly almost none and unless he lightens his heavy saddle bag, speeds up all isn't good for breaking the record  (unless a 3rd go at it in the future ) but let us all hope the new diet kicks in real soon and vehicle transfers enable more wind assisted miles.  I cannot see him doing circuits of airfields and the like which are not close to home. 

[Frank9755]

Steve has said in the past he doesn't like drafting. It puts too much pressure on both parties. No idea what his current thoughts are.

All the fastest rides I have done have been drafting and have been for shorter times. There is a mental strain with group riding as the concentration levels must be higher. The higher the speed the greater the concentration. It takes time to trust other riders - how close can I get to his wheel? Can I overlap to avoid braking? if he is twitchy I cannot. Starting to slow, when will he finish his turn? I can understand Steve's reluctance ...

...I think sleep is very important and Steve needs to be a little faster to get enough. But all is not lost on the current attempt, if he can speed up.

BB

Group riding is another skill that has to be learned, or adapted to.  Many, or most, audax riders who have not come via a club background or done road racing have never had to learn it so there is no reason to expect them to be good at it.  I recall Steve's reservations were about riding with people like that as he (rightly) feared that one second of lost concentration could bring his attempt crashing down with a broken collar bone.  But it is another thing he needs to reconsider if he wants to get his speed up.  It does take more concentration which does get tiring.  However, outside a race situation where lots of people are going full on and jostling for places, crashes are rare.

Never overlap wheels with anyone!  Once you do, you have given away your ability to steer and, if they don't do what you thought they would do, it would get nasty (correct technique to avoid braking is to give their arse a gentle push to maintain the gap)

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Steve got on the road around 09:00 this morning, is averaging about 22 kph and has a lot of headwind to do. It won't be a 220 mile day today.

[Mr Larrington]

Never overlap wheels with anyone!  Once you do, you have given away your ability to steer and, if they don't do what you thought they would do, it would get nasty (correct technique to avoid braking is to give their arse a gentle push to maintain the gap)

<Stan's_Advocate>
Another mark in favour of recumbents - no wheel overlap when riding in a bunch
</Stan's_Advocate>

Of course this didn't stop my grate frend the late Hairy McSteve from smashing one of my rear lights with a pedal during the European Championship "road" race in 1992

[Bianchi Boy]

Never overlap wheels with anyone!  Once you do, you have given away your ability to steer and, if they don't do what you thought they would do, it would get nasty (correct technique to avoid braking is to give their arse a gentle push to maintain the gap)

If you are in position to push you are wheel overlapping. It is done when there is a slowdown and you are trying to keep it smooth. If you brake at all you cause a ripple that forces the people behind to brake more, lose speed and have to accelerate to catch up. I have only once or twice seen this on Audax - more like leave the guy on the front till he is dead. Group riding skills in Audax are very poor, bordering on none existent. I had a great ride with Postie on an Easter Arrow, but it was five blokes who all rode independently 5 yards apart at best, at worst just in view. But it was a great day out - all I am commenting on is group riding. 

BB

[TimC]

It's a wonder anyone ever survives any bike ride if you have to have all this expertise before you start! The first group riding I ever did was on the RBL Pedal to Paris in 2005. Our group of 90-odd riders split into sub groups of 10-20 and managed quite succesfully to ride at 25mph or so for quite long periods. We even got the whole contingent of 270 or so to ride together the last 10 miles of each day without incident.

I'm quite sure that anyone who volunteered to pace Steve would be quite capable and confident of doing so, or why would they volunteer? No-one's suggesting Steve should or would ride with novices. When the time comes to consider the 2017 restart, pacing should definitely be in the mix.

[Wobbly]

<Stan's_Advocate>
Another mark in favour of recumbents - no wheel overlap when riding in a bunch
</Stan's_Advocate>

Depends if it's a long or short wheelbase recumbent.</pedantry>

[macnark]

Clear polycarbonate shield, reduce road spray for follower, reduce wheel overlap, couple him closer to the drag surface.

[Bianchi Boy]

Clear polycarbonate shield, reduce road spray for follower, reduce wheel overlap, couple him closer to the drag surface.

The rider will be able to ride at 10mph rendering all the protection irrelevant. 

[nextSibling]

The rider will be able to ride at 10mph rendering all the protection irrelevant. 

But attach that to the back of a motorbike and maybe we're getting somewhere 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

http://fredrompelberg.com/EN/world-record

or

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-04-27/sports/sp-485_1_m-p-h-secrest

[jochta]

I've had a quick look using the Strava global heatmap (http://labs.strava.com/heatmap/) to see if there are any local airfields that have been used by cyclists. Chalgrove has restricted access and no activity. Abingdon has had some activity, not sure why or how (http://labs.strava.com/heatmap/#15/-1.32123/51.68619/gray/bike). No activity at Wroughton or Little Rissington. Perhaps a way of finding local circuits that have been used before?

[Karla]

You are missing the point I'm making, the speed that I go up a hill is such that the aero advantage outweighs any sort of disparity in weight between my recumbent and my upright. All the figures used are constants, - do the maths.

I've no idea what my Cda values are for my recumbent and upright, I've never worked them out. From what I've seen 180w gives me a 3mph advantage over my upright. A good TT bike would not be a whole lot better, and certainly would not be good for Steve's attempt imo given the such aggressive geometry when churing out such a large milage.

Your tests are telling you something specific to you, your bikes and how you use them, an has no applicability to anyone else. 

Since you were using these tests to refute LWaB's statement that a good TT position isn't much less aero than a recumbent, I looked up some recumbent CdA values

Here they are

A really good TT position these days will have a CdA of 0.18-0.19, i.e. well above the velomobiles but below several of the less extreme recumbents. 

In other words, LWaB was right and you were wrong.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Can we keep most of the upright/ recumbent discussion elsewhere and just note the highlights here?

As others have noted, Steve isn't in an ideal TT position anyway and there are questions about power output in a recumbent/ upright position versus perceived exertion.

[andyoxon]

I've had a quick look using the Strava global heatmap (http://labs.strava.com/heatmap/) to see if there are any local airfields that have been used by cyclists. Chalgrove has restricted access and no activity. Abingdon has had some activity, not sure why or how (http://labs.strava.com/heatmap/#15/-1.32123/51.68619/gray/bike). No activity at Wroughton or Little Rissington. Perhaps a way of finding local circuits that have been used before?

OutdoorTradersCC/OxonianCC use Abingdon airfield from time to time AFAIA...

[LMT]

You are missing the point I'm making, the speed that I go up a hill is such that the aero advantage outweighs any sort of disparity in weight between my recumbent and my upright. All the figures used are constants, - do the maths.

I've no idea what my Cda values are for my recumbent and upright, I've never worked them out. From what I've seen 180w gives me a 3mph advantage over my upright. A good TT bike would not be a whole lot better, and certainly would not be good for Steve's attempt imo given the such aggressive geometry when churing out such a large milage.

Your tests are telling you something specific to you, your bikes and how you use them, an has no applicability to anyone else. 

Since you were using these tests to refute LWaB's statement that a good TT position isn't much less aero than a recumbent, I looked up some recumbent CdA values

Here they are

A really good TT position these days will have a CdA of 0.18-0.19, i.e. well above the velomobiles but below several of the less extreme recumbents. 

In other words, LWaB was right and you were wrong.

Thanks for that link.

The bikes that I've referred to earlier on in this thread all have a lower CdA or near enough identical to Boardman in his 'Superman' prime which I'm sure you'll agree is about as extreme TT position you can get.

If you want to debate some more then start another thread.

[Karla]

Bikes and riders have come on since Boardman: a modern tribar position on a modern bike, in either the pro ranks or the sharp end of the domestic circuit, has a CdA not far off Boardman's. 

Aerodynamics and how not to generalise test results: i make that two counts on which you're demonstrably talking out of your rear end.

[LMT]

Bikes and riders have come on since Boardman: a modern tribar position on a modern bike, in either the pro ranks or the sharp end of the domestic circuit, has a CdA not far off Boardman's. 

Aerodynamics and how not to generalise test results: i make that two counts on which you're demonstrably talking out of your rear end.

LOL, of which the bikes I quoted earlier have a lower CdA - now shush.

[hillbilly]

The rider will be able to ride at 10mph rendering all the protection irrelevant. 

But attach that to the back of a motorbike and maybe we're getting somewhere 

I know this is tongue in cheek but, general observation, it is to Steve's immense credit that he has a view on the right way to attempt the challenge.  To me, how the record is achieved is an important part of the challenge.  There is a purity in how Steve expressed his original vision, which so many ideas on this thread would dilute.

More generally, I'd suggest that achieving the record is almost secondary to finding out how far you can ride based on one's worldview.  The really disappointing thing about Steve's situation is not that he may not achieve the record, but that he has not been able to test his own limits.  Strangely if Steve continues despite the jeopardy of failing to exceed Kurt or Tommy, I will have more not less respect for him. I'm probably being overly British and audaxy about this, but there you go.

[MacB]

I think understanding the limits and parameters is a fair point, my romantic/idealised side thinks that solo with no assistance is the pure record. But where and how do you draw the line, how many categories are then created and how are attempts/claims policed?

Another way to look at it is what would be the upper limit mileage wise? Say the big boys got involved like a team Sky effort with all the bells and whistles that could bring? What would be the physical upper limits, 250/300 miles per day, more, less? Say they could achieve 274mpd for a 100k total, is there any way a solo effort could ever come close again?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Tommy didn't do the whole year in a solo 'romantic' fashion. His big mileage months had full-time motorised support. When that was withdrawn, Tommy was much closer to his average daily distance, much the same daily distance as Steve was doing in summer.

The professionals' physical abilities could put the record well beyond the reach of even such rare and talented riders as Tommy, Kurt or Steve. For example, mid-range professional Jock Boyer won his first RAAM at record pace on the basis of no specific distance training and with an inexperienced crew, though he was run close by Secrest. A Sky pro (Porte?) rode a comfortable 400km training ride in daylight not so long ago.

[drgannet]

A Sky pro (Porte?) rode a comfortable 400km training ride in daylight not so long ago.

There's a report here http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/02/cam-and-richies-excellent-adventure/. The data at the end is reported as below (not clear whether this was Porte's or Wurf's. They finished in the dark, although they didn't set out to ride 400km originally.
Ride time: 13hrs 30min
Distance: 403km
elevation gain: 4500m
Ave Power: 230watts
Ave Heart rate: 115
Kcal Burnt: 11400