Author Topic: [HAMR] Current thoughts on the record attempt?  (Read 260367 times)

Wowbagger

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1500 on: 02 January, 2016, 04:25:38 pm »
That's the sort of information that should be shared with Steve's fans & followers at least once a month. Very interesting! Good luck Steve!
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Basil

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1501 on: 02 January, 2016, 04:51:54 pm »
Thanks for that Jack.  Very good to hear those thoughts.  Perhaps a little more of that sort of  "thoughts from the team" would be a good thing for them to consider.
Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1502 on: 02 January, 2016, 05:03:38 pm »
Thanks for posting, Jack, very interesting. The story helps highlight just how much effort goes into supporting this endeavour.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1503 on: 02 January, 2016, 05:13:43 pm »
As some will know I've been covering the year record on The Bike Show podcast and will be returning to the subject imminently.

Among the interviews I've done is one with Idai from Steve's team, on 31 December. It was by phone and pretty long. The poor quality of the phone audio means that only edited excerpts will make it into the podcast. But given the interest on the forum in Steve's well being and his plan for the remainder of his record attempt, and the fact that his team have not been prioritising communications with the outside world (perhaps understandable, given the amount of other tasks they have to do), I thought it might help if I shared a fuller recording of our conversation.

You can find it here (beware, it runs to 33 minutes!)

http://traffic.libsyn.com/thebikeshow/idai_20151231.mp3

That's a really interesting interview, and I don't think anyone can question Idai's commitment to the record having listened to it! Stuff like that does make the whole thing more personal and more engaging than web pages and charts and discussions on here. It will be very interesting to hear Steve's revised schedule when he gets around to sharing it, though I agree that it's unlikely to be very much modified from his original other than smoothing out the peaks and troughs. It's particularly good to hear that he's now feeling well and that a reassessment of the chances of success will be made at the end of the month in the light of his progress having returned to health. I won't restate my position; I'm prepared to accept that Steve's not riding himself into greater illness and, that being the case, I'll watch with interest - and reserve the right to comment based on the numbers achieved. Notwithstanding that, I wish Steve all the luck and following winds he can get, and I really hope he can stick two fingers up to all of us come August.

My thoughts exactly. I'm glad to hear his health issues are back to normal, just hope he can resume his form to complete by August.

macnark

  • Cake and Tea solves all.
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1504 on: 02 January, 2016, 10:34:19 pm »
What a thoroughly informative, balanced and sensible outlook from Idai - that has really helped clarify things, thank you for that, Idai and Jack.

Best wishes to Steve and all his supporting team - let's hope things go to plan during January and continue to do so thereafter.

Chapeau!

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1505 on: 03 January, 2016, 08:57:10 am »
What a thoroughly informative, balanced and sensible outlook from Idai - that has really helped clarify things, thank you for that, Idai and Jack.

Best wishes to Steve and all his supporting team - let's hope things go to plan during January and continue to do so thereafter.

Chapeau!








A most interesting 33 minutes and thanks for sharing it with us.  It wasn't so good hearing of volunteers not delivering on their promises
This forum is full of advise how things should be improved but without the actual help.  Let us hope the Winter isn't a Winter!  And Steve survives it well and is able to push himself  (as no doubt he'll have to ) when the weather improves and he is able to find the speed he'll need along with any improvements to the statergy that are able to be put in place.
Good luck Steve and TEAM keep up the good work.  :thumbsup:

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1506 on: 03 January, 2016, 09:07:21 am »
It wasn't so good hearing of volunteers not delivering on their promises

This forum is full of advise how things should be improved but without the actual help.  Let us hope the Winter isn't a Winter!  And Steve survives it well and is able to push himself  (as no doubt he'll have to ) when the weather improves and he is able to find the speed he'll need along with any improvements to the statergy that are able to be put in place.
Good luck Steve and TEAM keep up the good work.  :thumbsup:

...but entirely unsurprising to anyone who has ever had experience of such things. cf my comments previously about the effectiveness of the team, despite their best intentions and efforts.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1507 on: 03 January, 2016, 12:50:19 pm »
It wasn't so good hearing of volunteers not delivering on their promises

This forum is full of advise how things should be improved but without the actual help.  Let us hope the Winter isn't a Winter!  And Steve survives it well and is able to push himself  (as no doubt he'll have to ) when the weather improves and he is able to find the speed he'll need along with any improvements to the statergy that are able to be put in place.
Good luck Steve and TEAM keep up the good work.  :thumbsup:

...but entirely unsurprising to anyone who has ever had experience of such things. cf my comments previously about the effectiveness of the team, despite their best intentions and efforts.

Agree with Ham.  It is incredibly difficult to pull a team of volunteers together let alone for the duration required in this instance.   People have lives, many and varied commitments.   They, like Steve deserve some admiration and appreciation for their commitment to date, both past and current team members.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1508 on: 03 January, 2016, 01:21:51 pm »
Comment from Steve on FB just now...

Quote
My ill health has been highly exaggerated in certain quarters for effect! I'm feeling fine, Hoppo has got all the bases covered and the team are working well as a unit, which you will see from the mileages in the days and weeks to come 😊

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1509 on: 03 January, 2016, 01:25:41 pm »
Comment from Steve on FB just now...

Quote
My ill health has been highly exaggerated in certain quarters for effect! I'm feeling fine, Hoppo has got all the bases covered and the team are working well as a unit, which you will see from the mileages in the days and weeks to come 😊

Interesting. was the exaggeration our interpretation of the snippets reluctantly shared amid the silence, or the intended effect of the snippets?

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1510 on: 03 January, 2016, 01:30:38 pm »
Comment from Steve on FB just now...

Quote
My ill health has been highly exaggerated in certain quarters for effect! I'm feeling fine, Hoppo has got all the bases covered and the team are working well as a unit, which you will see from the mileages in the days and weeks to come 😊

Interesting. was the exaggeration our interpretation of the snippets reluctantly shared amid the silence, or the intended effect of the snippets?

Seems a bit odd since it was Steve's Strava comments that told us most about the health issues. Also did they deliberately exaggerate the kidney failure to cause a diet change?

And what effect were they after?

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1511 on: 03 January, 2016, 01:35:21 pm »
I suspect it'll be back to "wait and see".
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1512 on: 03 January, 2016, 02:06:57 pm »
There was no Kidney failure....apparently they were under serious stress, but not 'failed' :)

It's good to see this thread has now calmed down btw :thumbsup:
DJR (Dave Russell) now retired. Carbon Beone parts bin special retired to turbo trainer, Brompton broken, as was I, Whyte Suffolk dismantled and sold. Now have Mason Definition and Orbea M20i.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1513 on: 03 January, 2016, 02:10:35 pm »
There was no Kidney failure....apparently they were under serious stress, but not 'failed' :)

True. Potential kidney failure :)

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1514 on: 03 January, 2016, 02:58:20 pm »
I don't suppose we will be told, but Steve's creatinine level would be of interest wrt his kidney functionality. I know a bit about this sort of thing, for the wrong reasons. In a healthy male, creatinine (the waste product from muscle breakdown) should be at 0.7 to 1.2 mg/dL.

Kidney failure isn't a binary thing. You can, and do survive with much higher levels than this. Typically, dialysis patients range from about 6 to 12mg/dL.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1515 on: 03 January, 2016, 03:20:56 pm »
Comment from Steve on FB just now...

Quote
My ill health has been highly exaggerated in certain quarters for effect! I'm feeling fine, Hoppo has got all the bases covered and the team are working well as a unit, which you will see from the mileages in the days and weeks to come


Just wondering out loud who writes his Facebook posts?

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1516 on: 03 January, 2016, 03:26:28 pm »
As some will know I've been covering the year record on The Bike Show podcast and will be returning to the subject imminently.

Among the interviews I've done is one with Idai from Steve's team, on 31 December. It was by phone and pretty long. The poor quality of the phone audio means that only edited excerpts will make it into the podcast. But given the interest on the forum in Steve's well being and his plan for the remainder of his record attempt, and the fact that his team have not been prioritising communications with the outside world (perhaps understandable, given the amount of other tasks they have to do), I thought it might help if I shared a fuller recording of our conversation.

You can find it here (beware, it runs to 33 minutes!)

http://traffic.libsyn.com/thebikeshow/idai_20151231.mp3



I found the interview extremely interesting and informative - thanks jackt. It also offered a reminder of the mental strength required by such an undertaking and gave an insight into Steve’s coping strategies. I was starting to find it difficult to feel involved with the record attempt and this interview has helped hugely with that.

It also gave badly needed reassurance on the health front, which was my main concern in my earlier posts on this thread. I think Steve’s comment about health issues being exaggerated is incorrect, at least as far as this thread is concerned. Perhaps there were other comments elsewhere that led to that. My impression was that there was uncertainty, resulting from the nature of his (or his team’s) Facebook posts: weight loss, recurrent mild illness and visits to doctors on a background of lower than usual mileage. I think it was reasonable to express concern.

There were comments earlier on the thread on the matter of “kidney stress”. To my mind, you either have a degree of renal failure of some kind, or you don’t. However, while “organ stress” isn’t a term seen in medical literature, it is not unheard of for similar terminology to be discussed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/

My understanding of Idai’s comments is that Steve was developing a fatty liver due to high levels of carbohydrates, partly from high dietary intake of carbs and partly from conversion of excess protein. There is also some reference to high levels of protein metabolites due to muscle breakdown and presumably some renal function related abnormalities in blood tests.

In any case, it would seem to be unequivocally clear that Steve and the team have been assured that there are no health concerns that would suggest ending the attempt. Also, my understanding of the variations in daily distances achieved is that the lower mileage days were due to illness (illnesses within the usual ranges of what might be expected in the circumstances), possibly exacerbated by antibiotic treatment for a separate condition, well-founded dietary change and the adaptation required, and planned low mileage days on medical advice. Prior to this, it had seemed to me that the pattern could have been explained by sheer exhaustion and accumulating health issues - I now no longer think this is the case.

My reading of the various calculations above is that Steve can beat his 2015 365-day distance, and that he could possibly still beat Kurt. I agree with Greenbank’s earlier post that it is understandable why Steve would want to continue while these things are within reach. His mileage over the last couple of days, in poor conditions with a lot of riding in the dark, shows that he has the potential to achieve the speeds needed.

Steve’s entire bike riding life has been aiming towards this record and I am going to continue my wholehearted support.

Go Steve!




mattc

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1517 on: 03 January, 2016, 04:26:27 pm »
Comment from Steve on FB just now...

Quote
My ill health has been highly exaggerated in certain quarters for effect! I'm feeling fine, Hoppo has got all the bases covered and the team are working well as a unit, which you will see from the mileages in the days and weeks to come


Just wondering out loud who writes his Facebook posts?
Most of them are written in the 3rd person i.e. to make it clear that its a team member writing. So I'd be prettty sure this one is either written or dictated by Steve!

Sometimes there is an actual name attached, IIRC. So i reckon at least two members are writing them.

Anyone else want to speculate? :P
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Basil

  • Um....err......oh bugger!
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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1518 on: 03 January, 2016, 05:08:16 pm »
I was starting to find it difficult to feel involved with the record attempt and this interview has helped hugely with that.
This
Quote
Steve’s entire bike riding life has been aiming towards this record and I am going to continue my wholehearted support.
And this.

Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

Basil

  • Um....err......oh bugger!
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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1519 on: 03 January, 2016, 05:09:54 pm »

Anyone else want to speculate? :P

Nope
Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

mattc

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1520 on: 03 January, 2016, 05:50:53 pm »
As some will know I've been covering the year record on The Bike Show podcast and will be returning to the subject imminently.

Among the interviews I've done is one with Idai from Steve's team, on 31 December. It was by phone and pretty long. The poor quality of the phone audio means that only edited excerpts will make it into the podcast. But given the interest on the forum in Steve's well being and his plan for the remainder of his record attempt, and the fact that his team have not been prioritising communications with the outside world (perhaps understandable, given the amount of other tasks they have to do), I thought it might help if I shared a fuller recording of our conversation.

You can find it here (beware, it runs to 33 minutes!)

http://traffic.libsyn.com/thebikeshow/idai_20151231.mp3
Great stuff Jack, thanks for letting us hear Idai in his unedited glory; crikey that guy can talk, can't he? :)

Good luck editing that - especially the last section where Idai gets up a good head of steam.


Idai had a few comments on all those wanting Steve to quit. He seemed to think they are doing much more harm than good.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1521 on: 03 January, 2016, 06:12:39 pm »
Comment from Steve on FB just now...

Quote
My ill health has been highly exaggerated in certain quarters for effect! I'm feeling fine, Hoppo has got all the bases covered and the team are working well as a unit, which you will see from the mileages in the days and weeks to come


Just wondering out loud who writes his Facebook posts?

Various members of Steve's team and, occasionally, Steve himself.

Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1522 on: 03 January, 2016, 07:17:32 pm »
I don't suppose we will be told, but Steve's creatinine level would be of interest wrt his kidney functionality. I know a bit about this sort of thing, for the wrong reasons. In a healthy male, creatinine (the waste product from muscle breakdown) should be at 0.7 to 1.2 mg/dL.

Kidney failure isn't a binary thing. You can, and do survive with much higher levels than this. Typically, dialysis patients range from about 6 to 12mg/dL.
You are using USAnian units rather than SI units in use in most of the world.
The breakdown of muscle to creatine and its conversion to creatinine is not a linear process. The levels of creatinine in both plasma and urine are affected much more by renal function than muscle breakdown.
The biggest single marker of acute muscle breakdown is myoglobin in urine, although it's unlikely you'd find a lab willing / able to measure it in the 21st century. It's generally a qualitative investigation.
Creatine Kinase levels can give an indication of muscle breakdown- particularly if you are looking at the MM isoenzyme- however in the case of someone like Steve I'd wonder if he's 'normalised' to a 'steady state' and his enzyme results would be back into the reference range for a heathy adult?
The creatinine is simply a marker of the renal damage - in itself it's a pretty benign substance. The damage is to the renal tubules through a variety of chemical and physiological effects - which is why both hydration and mineral intake are vital factors for endurance athletes.
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1523 on: 03 January, 2016, 10:43:01 pm »
I was going to have a more thorough delve into the data (including average speeds) next week when the holidays are over.

Had a brief look at the data (the "Full Data" sheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e6hVMqFKwaIvcj-Mx8GNRs1UZl5QiYmbg4LZjMMLYwg/edit#gid=0 )

If we assume that Steve will need 220mpd+ over the next ~210 days then he either needs to get faster, spend longer in the saddle each day, or a combination of both.

His two original schedules differed by the expected average speeds. The time spent each day in the saddle was the same for each month.

Quote
The next thing I did was to think about how many hours I’d expect to spend riding, not including stops, on a typical day for whichever given month. For example, I thought that spending 12-14 hours would be about right for a typical January day, on a daily basis. Whereas in June, riding for 16-18 hours would be about right. I based the figures on my years of experience of all year round long distance cycling.

(I strongly doubt that Steve can ride 18 hours a day, day in day out for more than 2 months. With a couple of hours off the bike for eating, washing, toilet, etc that's only 4 hours sleep a day. He might have been able to maintain that for a couple of weeks on some previous long ride [Grand Triangle/etc] but that doesn't mean he can do it for 60+ days).

All following calculations start from Jan 1st 2016, so his mileage to that point is 27827.7 miles and he needs the rest (based on a 76000 mile record from Kurt) over the remaining 219 days (219.96mpd).

The historical data shows he was able to regularly do 13.5 hours a day moving time as he has managed this consistently when not injured, recovering or ill. He'll only have a good chance at the record from the restart if he avoids illness and injury! But he never had a 7 day average of more than 14.5 hours. Would this have been different without the injury or illness, we don't know. But basing a schedule on the expectation of being able to move up to 16h moving time a day is certainly risky (but we'll have a go). It just may not possible with that level of accumulated fatigue. It's one thing Steve can't plan as he's never tried to ride that much consistently with this level of accumulated fatigue.

His current mean ride speed is 14.65mph (from the restart, it was 14.54mph for the original attempt) but these include some slower days due to injury/etc. The interquartile mean (i.e. the average after throwing away the shortest quarter and longest quarter of results) for the second attempt is 14.91mph (see the "Statistics" sheet on the google docs link above for more info on this).

So, for scenario #1 (he gets faster) let's assume he can peak at 14 hours a day even in the summer. I'll take Jan/Feb to be 13h/day, Mar 13.5h/day and Apr/May/Jun/Jul/Aug at 14h/day.

At 14.65mph this works out at 190.45miles, 197.775miles and 205.1miles and, no great surprise, he's 4361 miles short of 76000.

How fast would he need to get within the constraints of those hourly riding limits and good luck of no illness or off days...

Those riding times add to 2990.5 hours over those 219 days. (76000-27827.7)/2990.5 = 16.11mph

A progressive increase from the current 14.65mph would be bad. January at 14.65mph and Feb at 15.5mph would require the rest of the riding to be done at 16.5mph to beat the expected 76000. If he's going to increase his speed (and not the time he rides) then he needs to magically get faster right now (whether this is drafting, lifts for tailwinds, whatever).

Scenario 2 (he rides for longer each day):-

Steve seems happy currently riding 13 hour days, so lets reset the schedule to:

Jan/Feb: 13h
Mar: 13.5h
Apr: 14h
May: 15h
Jun/Jul: 16h
Aug: 16h (he's only got 6 days in August so we'll increase it from the original plan of 15h).

Note that the later figures are the lower end of his estimates for how long he could do (I'll work it out with the middle and upper ends in a bit).

That works out at a total of 3155.5 hours over the remaining 219 days.

If he rides to this schedule at his current average speed (14.65mph) he misses by (76000-27827.7)-(3155.5*14.65) = 1944.225 miles.

That's close, so how much faster would he have to ride if he rides for longer.

Scenario 3 (he rides faster and for longer...):-

Take those 3155.5 hours of the lower end of the revised schedule...

(76000-27827.7)/3155.5 = 15.26mph

That's an increase of 0.7mph on what he's been doing recently (and the interquartile mean speed for the original attempt was 14.85mph and the restarted attempt 14.91mph, so he's not far off that already).

At the middle of the spectrum we add a further hour each day to get 3374.5 hours. (76000-27827.7)/3374.5 = 14.3mph

At the top end of the spectrum we add another hour each day to get 3593.5 hours. (76000-27827.7)/3593.5 = 13.41mph

But I strongly doubt that Steve (or anyone really) can put in 17 let alone 18 hours a day of riding for 60+ days consistently.

The lower end of the schedule may be possible as it represents 4 months of roughly what he is doing now (and has done for many months in total) followed by 3 and a bit months of longer hours, but it's still an unknown (as Steve has never consistently managed more than 14 hours a day of moving time). 16 hours a day riding time leaves very little time for sleep after eating/ablutions/shower/chores/etc.

The lower version ends up as an average speed of 15.26mph and daily distances of 198.9 (Jan/Feb), 206.55 (Mar), 214.2 (Apr), 229.5 (May), 244.8 (Jun/Jul/Aug).

A slight speed increase is required but I think the key will be to optimising his day to make fitting in the longer rides easier. 1h30m pub lunch stops (like this evening) are going to eat (no pun intended) into his sleep and recovery. Sitting down and resting whilst you wait/eat food is one thing, and some of it is required as you can't just bolt your food down and go straight back out on the bike, but it's not sleep. I haven't looked at Kurt's stopped time data but I assume it's considerably less as Alicia can time the food preparation perfectly for his arrival so he is in complete control of how long he stops for.

Steve relying on commercial food stops is a big risk to this but it might be managable depending on his diet and with good planning. Any extra time (than planned) waiting means lost sleep. Start gaining too much sleep debt and the riding time per day or speed suffers (and, like several have pointed out, shows as a bunch of good long days followed by one or two shorter days with all the advantage of the longer days lost).

Obviously other tactics (lifts to the start of a tailwind, drafting) are possibilities but they come with their own trade-offs and problems[1], but any increase in average speed will help keep the sleep debt in check if time isn't wasted on other things.

Anyway, that's enough, it's made me a lot more positive about the continuation with the restarted attempt but it all hinges on whether Steve can get that little bit faster and build up to a few more hours riding each day and maintain this almost without fail.

1. Organisation most notably, and taking the pathological case of being driven 300km every day to the start of a tailwind means at least 3 hours a day in a car, which doesn't lend itself well to quality sleep and isn't that productive...picking numbers from my arse: 150km into the wind at 22kph = 6.81h, 150km with the wind at 32kph = 4.68h. The 3 hour car journey would just be saving you 6.81h-4.68h = 2h 8m, so a net loss. You'd need 150km at 22kph to be balanced by 150km at 40kph to earn back the 3 hours it would take to drive back to the start point (assuming 100kph). Unlikely. Kurt benefits from tailwind lifts because he's sleeping in the camper van so he doesn't have his sleep disrupted at the end of the transfer.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #1524 on: 03 January, 2016, 11:02:28 pm »
Extremely thorough number-crunching GB, and certainly puts things into clear focus.  Presumably Steve and the team have done something similar and will be able to judge progress against these figures over the next few weeks.
The sound of one pannier flapping