[HAMR] Current thoughts on the record attempt?

[TimC]

Question: the change of details re the donations for Steve. Does this give the team the wider access to the funds that FB was so concerned about and mentioned upthread?

[Frank9755]

I've no idea, but, in principle, it would seem sensible for others to be able to access the funds to spend on his behalf rather than Steve having to take time out to queue at the bank. 

If you don't feel you can trust the other team members, that's a different matter.

[Ningishzidda]

Some mornings, I look at Steve’s ‘Year at a glance’ progress curve and think “The silly sod’s not going to do this.” Some mornings I look at the curve and think “Steve has an undisclosed plan.”

For the last three mornings, it’s the latter.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Citizenfish, how likely do you think it is that Tommy spent the summer months crystal-cranking 18" from the back of a 20mph lorry on the A1?  Having seen the toll that consistent high mileage has taken on Steve, and assuming that if Kurt was finding it easy to knock out an average of 210mpd he'd have done more, it seems difficult to believe that from 17/7/39 onwards Tommy managed 5 straight days of 300m+ rides and that his midsummer 361m was followed by more than a month of Godwin+ rides, many nearer 300m than 200m.

I don't believe it as I think I would have found reference to it. His coach Charley Davey was a tough wizened record breaker who had taken the 24hr record and many other nails events. He would have taken no nonsense from Godwin and the record shows he harried him on during his five months of active pacing. Godwin's 348 day was witnessed by Cycling magazine, no mention of lorries, and clear indication in his splits that he rode fast then recovered, repeat.

Neat theory, little evidence that he used it during the Davey months. However, afterwards when the pacing was stopped I suspect he would have welcomed any lorry tows available.

Drafting lorries during long rides was commonplace for hardriders between the wars and afterwards, right up until the lorry speed limit was raised beyond comfortable riding pace. I doubt that, in the context of long-distance riding, catching a breather behind a lorry would have been considered noteworthy.

A 2 minute Google search leads to Jack Thurston interviewing Eileen Sheriden, a record-breaking contemporary of Tommy.
<In what sounds like a real life version of the famous scene in 1970s American bicycling teen flick Breaking Away, Eileen laughs as she recalls how she would draft lorries for miles on end on her training runs. “I must have been breathing all the black smoke coming out of the back but the drivers were helpful in those days. They seemed to know you were there.”>
https://rouleur.cc/journal/history/eileen-sheridan-interview-professional-cyclist-time-trial

[Citizenfish]

I think I have read every single piece of commentary and interview concerning Tommy, Bernard, Rene, Walter, Ossie etc... possible and I've never found reference to it as the underlying strategy by either the riders or the journalists. I've nothing to hide as I am fascinated by the whole affair. I'm sure it was part of a rider's day were the opportunity to arise but I am not convinced by the theory that it underpinned the big miles. If this was the case they would have continued at the same rate after the pacers retired. The other problem is milage cards, you forget that a signature was required at every major turn/location. Billie Fleming told me this in person, it wasn't just a case of getting a card signed when you felt like it.

Eileen's case is possibly different, equivalent to motorpaced training that many pros do today behind a moped to build speed. Sadly the people who really know are not here.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I'm not saying that drafting was actually part of the strategy but given that lorries formed a large percentage of the traffic at the time, Tommy's average riding speed for much of the time was close to 20mph and lorries were limited to 20mph, it would be almost impossible to avoid drafting them. I'd not be surprised if Tommy skipped down the road faster than 20mph during his 'hard hours' and rested up behind lorries at 20mph before repeating, particularly into headwinds.

It was the intensive support that allowed Tommy his big Summer miles - the change/ response is quite clear when intensive support was initiated and later removed.

The low overall traffic volumes meant that Tommy could happily sit on major A-roads (where lorries traveling long distances were fairly common), which would reduce the amount of major turns/ stops for signatures. That routing choice was surely part of the strategy.

[LEE]

My only real surprise about Steve's strategy is that he's using a Raleigh Sojourn for the attempt.

Maybe it's a deliberate attempt to "keep it real" but there are equally comfy and, crucially, quicker bikes out there.

My Carbon bike is measurably quicker than my steel bike and every 0.2mph increase buys you 1,000 "free" miles a year.

Marginal gains add up over 75,000 miles.  Is he using a Power Meter?

[Greenbank]

It's just one study ( http://www.bmj.com/cgi/doi/10.1136/bmj.c6801 ) but: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11958903

For six months he tossed a coin each morning to decide which bike to use - and then timed the journey.

His study, published in the British Medical Journal, found that there was no measurable difference in commuting time over the 27 miles from Sheffield to his place of work and back.

The average journey time using his heavy, old bike was 1 hour 47 minutes and the average journey for the new, lighter new bike was 1 hour 48 minutes.

Steve's not using a power meter. He doesn't need one to ride within himself as he is doing and I don't think he wants to turn into Chris Froome staring at his stem the entire time, plus it's one more thing to go wrong if he was relying upon it.

[Ningishzidda]

The six stages of a project.

1.   Enthusiasm
2.   Disillusionment
3.   Panic
4.   Search for a culprit
5.   Praise for the unworthy
6.   Punishment of the innocent.

You are now in Stage 4.

[Ham]

Greenback  - a good posting

Did you mean he's on the money ? 

[danridesbikes]

plus it's one more thing to go wrong if he was relying upon it.

or redundancy for the the HRM, which wrecked a few hours riding a couple of months ago

agreed though, most of the power meters on the market have some faff time, I've got a couple of Stages units, and had no end of trouble with a Powertap G3

[Exit Stage Left]

My father was a club cyclist in the late 1940s and a driver in the RAF in the 1950s. Drafting lorries was something they did as a way of getting to somewhere interesting from Preston, essentially straight up the A6. The 20mph limit was there to placate the railway lobby. Lorries were capable of going faster, and would have done in the build-up to war.
Later in the war lorries were sometimes strafed, so took to travelling in convoys at night.
It's quite an interesting subject, and a bit difficult to research on the internet. There are the occasional references in 'People's Histories', as in the long account here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/53/a2304253.shtml
There must be others somewhere.

During PBP I interviewed a bloke who described himself as a 'bicycle historian', he liked my videos because they provided an insight into what people rode and wore on Audax events. He felt it was handy to have a reference source in the midst of an explosion of content.

Anyone writing a history of the current resurgence of interest in 'The Year' faces the same problem. Facebook and Strava provide snapshots, and are interesting in the context of the 'hate' post mentioned by Alicia elsewhere.
The posts on here provide the greatest concentration of considered thought about the attempt. It's unlikely that anyone will ever read through all the posts, any history will come from someone who has become part of the story as it has unfolded.

One interesting part to me has been the defence of Godwin's legacy. His methods are not well-documented, so the  'purity' debate can shift about. It became intensively discussed during the pre-moped phase, as Kurt stacked up the miles in Florida, while Steve rode through winter weather. It was an an echo of wartime, Kurt was 'Over-Supported, Over-Privileged and Over-There.

Where does the story go from here? Kurt and Steve both found that a couple of months took away their speed, what will happen to Bruce? I'd be interested to know what happened to Kurt and Steve's haemocrit levels during the progress of the event. That aspect is one compelling argument for Steve carrying on, we can see what effects there are.

[Greenbank]

plus it's one more thing to go wrong if he was relying upon it.

or redundancy for the the HRM, which wrecked a few hours riding a couple of months ago

He carries multiple Garmins so a spare HRM strap in the saddlebag is hardly a huge weight penalty (compared to the mini-laptop and various chargers he must be carrying for overnight stays).

Assuming Steve is good at judging his easy riding pace (he's had plenty of experience of it by now) then HR has the benefit of giving advance warning of illness (which generally shows up as a higher HR for same perceived effort), something you won't get using power alone.

Having HR or power data in the GPX log is a requirement for the HAMR record along with photos. Without HR or power you need to faff with the witness book which risks shorter mileage claims, more time stopped and completely rules out short loops such as the MK bowl.

[Peter]

My father was a club cyclist in the late 1940s and a driver in the RAF in the 1950s. Drafting lorries was something they did as a way of getting to somewhere interesting from Preston, essentially straight up the A6.

Damon, I thought for one glorious moment you were going to say he drafted himself!  Alas, not to be.

[Exit Stage Left]

I'll have to interview my Dad and his mate Peter Ward about cycling in the 40s and 50s.
http://www.ribblevalleycrc.com/whats-on/rvcrc-events/260-peter-ward-80th-birthday

Peter was one of those who spent some of his RAF career riding a bike, and became the archetypal club rider.
I saw a former stalwart of the Ribble Valley CRC at the weekend, and asked him if he still helped promote road races. Apparently the problem is that lots of young riders are in trade teams, not clubs, so there's no incentive to put on races, and trade teams don't put on races.

[mattc]

...
It's the internet, and the thread is called, 'Current thoughts about the record attempt' - it's an invitation to empty your stuff into a virtual letter box. The clue is in the title. Looks like many have taken up the invitation too.

What I find equally bizarre is those that don't like what they read but constantly return only to be continually agitated by what other people have posted to the point of saying it's a negative thread. Like, what are you doing? On the one hand some people don't like what they read, but then return again and again. Why read it, if it's that negative to you?
...

Well yes and no! I like your tolerant peace-loving approach, and I'm certainly one who could learn from it. But things aren't as simple as you describe.

This is a forum. We discuss stuff. I don't see the point of a "virtual letter box" where people just dump their thoughts, if no one is going to read them. And for me, just reading the stuff is pretty dull - what makes forums fun is the discussion.
And clearly I'm not alone in this - almost all posts here are fuelled by the sum of what we know about Steve's ride plus what others have already posted here.

There is some good stuff here. We've had some productive discussions, and folk post interesting and/or relevant history/anecdotes; so people come back. They won't stop just because Bob Wanker-Troll writes something offensive/wrong/off-topic. It seems only human nature to respond to the worst posts by BWT.


All IMHO of course

[simonp]

I really need to learn to stop clicking on the "show me the post" button.

[Hot Flatus]

I really need to learn to stop clicking on the "show me the post" button.

It's like a Shakespeare play.

I already know who Cassius and Brutus are.

[JohnR]

I've read the study provided by GB with interest, I also have two bikes I use regularly one steel with flat bars and 40c tyres which weighs about 15 Kg and my Ribble Alu frame with 23c tryes on 700c wheels and weighs about 8.5 Kg.

I usually use my steel bike for winter training rides saving my lighter one for audaxes and longer rides. I have been keeping tally of my times around familiar routes on both bikes and have come to the conclusion that there is little difference between using either bike except the lighter bike is easier to go uphill (no surprise there) and also i can go downhill just as fast on both bikes. any inertia of the heavier bike is soon used up when going from downhill to uphill. I also am under the impression, whether right or wrong that the lighter bike would be less energy sapping on longer rides say 200Km or above because of the lighter weight (and more so I am in a more aerodynamic position on the hoods). If this were the case I may be able to hold a slightly higher average speed overall on the longer rides but not so noticable on shorter rides.

I remember last summer seeing two cycle tourists cycling up a longish hill fully laden with camping gear their faces red and puffing as they pedalled easy gears at highish cadences and slowly ground their way up the hill. This in contrast to the lighter biked cyclists zooming up the same hill on another occasion, so I would think the lighter bike would be more beneficial where there are more hills of various gradients and the cyclist would be able to cycle further at slightly higher average speeds on longer rides with less fatigue. My view only.

Edit:
Recently I built up some lighter wheels for the steel bike for when I do longer rides on it and also when the old ones go bust, the new wheels with tyres weigh 2.5Kg total compared with 4Kg total for the original ones making the new ones about 37% lighter.
I fitted the lighter wheels when I recently rode to Blackpool (about 55 Miles) into a headwind and up some reasonable hills. The lighter wheels certainly felt much easier to cycle up the hills than the same hills on the heavier wheels and I am sure I arrived less fatigued than I would have been if I had used the heavier wheels.

[Frank9755]

It's a red herring. Aerodynamics are far more important than weight. 

The issue is not so much that Steve's bike and luggage are heavy but that his aerodynamics are not good. This is mainly because his position is very high. There may be reasons why he can't get a position more like Kurt or other long distance cyclists (eg back trouble), but i've never heard him say it. I suspect he just doesn't realise what a massive difference it would make.

All his luggage also creates additional drag. Furthermore, where he is carrying it is not good aerodynamically: it spoils the natural curve of his back.

[JohnR]

It's a red herring. Aerodynamics are far more important than weight.

Agreed, but if he is regularly riding up hills against gravity then surely a lighter bike plus payload would be more beneficial especially on longer journeys etc.?

[hillbilly]

It's a red herring. Aerodynamics are far more important than weight. 

Weight might be important if he is accelerating, which I guess depends on the type of roads he is using (in particular, number of junctions and traffic lights).  Also whilst the routes are flat, they do have some inclines.

I've no idea the extent to which aerodynamics and weight are more important than the other, particularly at the speeds Steve typically achieves.  The relevant thing (for me at least) is that he has options to make things easier which he has decided not to implement, for probably sensible reasons (which we can all speculate on but will never know in all likelihood).

[Greenbank]

...
This is a forum. We discuss stuff. I don't see the point of a "virtual letter box" where people just dump their thoughts, if no one is going to read them. And for me, just reading the stuff is pretty dull - what makes forums fun is the discussion.
...

I'm all for the actual discussions but the biggest problem with this place (forums or even the Internet in general, so it's not specific to yacf) is many people simply can't be arsed to read and digest the recent history of a thread before posting in it.

The leads to the same things being brought up again and again (despite them often being discussed thoroughly at some point before) and just causes frustration for the people that are reading, digesting, discussing, arguing, rebutting, etc. Maybe this is what makes it look like a virtual letter box. Novel ideas/thoughts are welcome, but many of the posts aren't novel or don't further a discussion.

Maybe splitting certain bits off into separate threads "Steve's choice of bike", "Transfers and tailwinds", etc would help those with short attention spans.

[EDIT] Mind you, we'd need to move the old (inactive for more than 7 days maybe) daily update threads to a new sub-sub-forum so that the other threads are visible on the first page.

[Ningishzidda]

Yes, an interesting piece of information about vehicle dynamics is aerodynamics counts for more than weight on a flat road.

Once up to speed, the larger inertia ( momentum ) of a streamlined heavy bicycle is easier to keep moving than a non-streamlined light bicycle.
I can refer you to Chester Kyle.
Any study carried out comparing the average speed of bicycles of different weights should be done on the same bike, but putting a billet of lead down the seat-tube to add 10lb.
Then it might be seen that on a hilly course where the hills are curvy and the cyclist cannot achieve equilibrium velocity when descending, the heavier bike is on average, slower.
When the roads are straight and hills are gentle and the cyclist can descend at faster than equilibrium velocity, the heavier bike may prove to be advantageous.

To get a realistic figure, perform ‘roll down the hill’ tests with the bike in both states of mass, to establish kW vs velocity for each mass.
You may find the heavier bike’s kW vs V curve is lower than the lighter bike, because it has greater momentum.

Steve’s choice of a ‘not light’ bike fitted with aerobars is a wise choice IMO, because he’s planning to ride mainly flat, straight and smooth roads.

[jackt]

I think I have read every single piece of commentary and interview concerning Tommy, Bernard, Rene, Walter, Ossie etc... possible and I've never found reference to it as the underlying strategy by either the riders or the journalists. I've nothing to hide as I am fascinated by the whole affair. I'm sure it was part of a rider's day were the opportunity to arise but I am not convinced by the theory that it underpinned the big miles. If this was the case they would have continued at the same rate after the pacers retired. The other problem is milage cards, you forget that a signature was required at every major turn/location. Billie Fleming told me this in person, it wasn't just a case of getting a card signed when you felt like it.

Eileen's case is possibly different, equivalent to motorpaced training that many pros do today behind a moped to build speed. Sadly the people who really know are not here.

Citizenfish, you're right about the motorpacing during training. It's also the case that there were pretty stringent rules about not accepting 'outside support' during Eileen's record breaking rides. She was allowed to have a following vehicle but she wasn't allowed to publicise her rides in advance, presumably to discourage members of the public from turning out on the road to support her, or worse, from pacing her. When I interviewed her she did make mention of kindly policemen getting wind of her imminent arrival in a town and holding up the traffic so she could ride through without stopping, but this was - I suspect - very much the exception. I should imagine that if she'd drafted a lorry for any length of time on one of her record attempts she'd have been running the risk of disqualification, though no doubt she'll have been grateful for the occasional momentary tow. But then again this was 10-15 years after Tommy's record ride, so many things may have changed. Also, Eileen's rides would likely have been under closer scrutiny than Tommy's, as they were much, much shorter duration, and on a fixed, pre-notified route. Fortunately Eileen is one of the handful of cycling legends from that golden era who are still with us. I'll ask her about it all next time we speak!