Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Folders => Topic started by: BucksBrompton on 17 July, 2012, 09:36:07 am
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I'm due a new cyclescheme voucher & its burning a hole in my pocket! I already have a Brompton M3L in raw lacquer, which I love. I'm thinking of getting another similar one, but this time was going for a single speed S type, again in raw lacquer finish. When you add a brooks saddle & mudguards it comes out at over £900. It seems a lot of money for what it is. Sure the Brompton fold is the best, also it looks best IMHO, residuals are good. But the technology is 'old/ancient'. I'm surprisingly tempted by alternative brands which offer belt drive & other 'modern' technology for a lot less money, other brands offer discounts.
I think the Bromptons are overpriced by around 25% & nobody ever offers a discount, which is surprising really. Are they pricing themselves out of the market?, their pricing seems to be reaching tipping point..
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Not only are they still in the market, Brompton can't make enough to satisfy the existing demand. They'd only need to reduce prices if they want to massively expand. People seem willing to pay for the fold, and perhaps because it's made in Britain?
The raw lacquer @ £80 extra is an optional luxury that you could easily do without.
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Is there still a waiting list for Brommies? I know Rob had to wait for his a couple of years ago (also got on cyclescheme). I guess if you’ve got a waiting list for something, you can arguably charge what you like, up to a point. What that point is remains to be seen – I don’t know if there’s still a waiting list these days, or whether the higher prices have reduced it somewhat. They’re tough little machines, too – Rob managed to ride his through all weathers for over 18 months before I finally wrestled it from him and presented it to the LBS for some TLC.
(Mind you, I have been known to justify what I spend on bikes because I don’t have a car any more. I could easily have spent more than £900 a year on my last car, taking into account insurance/tax/maintenance etc – and then there’s the public transport costs you save on, too.)
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I think the cycle scheme is partly responsible. I doubt many people hand over £750 cash when they pick them up.
I've yet to see a folder that I'd rather have than my M3L, and the cycle scheme made it relatively cheap and affordable.
They still seem to be flying out of bike shops everywhere, so the market can clearly bear the increased prices.
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Guess demand is still good, as there is a bit of a wait if going the bespoke route. Although my local shops seem to have most combinations on the shelf. I've not seen a discount yet though! Even a bog standard 3 speed, with mudguards, is over £800, which seems an awful lot of money for what it is. But as long as they sell enough, who can blame them. I wonder what the profit margin is!
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They have no direct competition since the way the bike folds is unique and the utility the fold provides is unrivalled.
It strikes me that by raising prices what they're doing is inviting other players into the market; the folding design isn't protected with any patents and there's nothing stopping other companies from producing a clone. Furthermore there's areas where the bike can be improved. . . it seems to me that Brompton are in a risky position. Charging over £800 for a high tensile steel bike with some sloppy components is quite extraordinary.
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They have no direct competition since the way the bike folds is unique and the utility the fold provides is unrivalled.
It strikes me that by raising prices what they're doing is inviting other players into the market; the folding design isn't protected with any patents and there's nothing stopping other companies from producing a clone. Furthermore there's areas where the bike can be improved. . . it seems to me that Brompton are in a risky position. Charging over £800 for a high tensile steel bike with some sloppy components is quite extraordinary.
I'm sure many other companies have looked at producing a clone in Taiwan. I suspect none have because it's a very difficult thing to manufacture, especially if you want it to work properly!
Some of he Brompton components may be clunky, but, in general, they are functional and reliable.
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The price of ALL new non-crap bikes shocks me! You don't get high-end componentry with racing bikes costing eight-hundred quid either. It's an age thing - the mind not keeping up with inflation.
Costs are rising in the far east, so British companies have got a chance in the long term. Meanwhile, Brompton probably can lower the prices if a direct competitor comes along, but they don't need to before that. That's not to say I don't feel sorry for people who simply can't afford a Brompton, and I'd like them to be cheaper, of course. I only got mine thanks to an insurance pay-out.
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They might not have patents, but they will have copyright on the fold AND the "look and feel" so any company wanting to produce a copy would be looking at problems if they copied it directly.
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Copyright is very specific and doesn't protect the folding design, only inessential aspects/stylistic choices (or so it would appear from the one case that went to court).
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...nobody ever offers a discount, which is surprising really.
Brompton don't allow resellers to offer a discount. But you can negotiate something in lieu of a discount, eg an upgrade to a Brooks saddle.
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The raw lacquer @ £80 extra is an optional luxury that you could easily do without.
Interestingly, having just looked at the prices of frame parts (just in case I have to replace mine), as a spare part the raw lacquer frame is the same price as most other colours (red was cheaper for some reason)
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I think the Bromptons are overpriced by around 25% & nobody ever offers a discount, which is surprising really. Are they pricing themselves out of the market?
Overpriced by 25% is quite specific. Please compare a similar bike that is actually 25% cheaper with a Brompton
In the meantime, we won't believe you about this over pricing out of the market thing. This is because most folding bikes we see are Bromptons
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All British built bikes currently look expensive due to the VAT rise to 20%. Three years ago my Moulton was £1050. Today the exact same bike is £1500 all bar £5. I would imagine Brompton are similarly affected.
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I think the Bromptons are overpriced by around 25% & nobody ever offers a discount, which is surprising really. Are they pricing themselves out of the market?
Overpriced by 25% is quite specific. Please compare a similar bike that is actually 25% cheaper with a Brompton
In the meantime, we won't believe you about this over pricing out of the market thing. This is because most folding bikes we see are Bromptons
A quick google finds this:-
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tern/link-d7i-2012-folding-bike-ec032583
£575, plus £100 worth of accessories. Sure its not as good as a Brompton overall. But its aluminium/7 speed Nexus hub. Just makes the Brompton look pricey. Saying that I'll still probably get another Brompton!
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Having been at the factory on Saturday and actually sat with the boss for the lunch, I don't think they need worry too much about being priced out of the market quite yet.
I have now visited the factory 4 times over the past 5 years, and what a difference I have seen. I was actually shocked on Saturday at how many brazing stations they've squeezed into the factory now (they are looking for a new unit just to put brazing in, so the current factory will just be assembly and warehousing).
I keep toying with the idea of buying a new one and, I agree, the prices have gone up an awful lot since I last bought one (2007), but (as Biggsy points out) bikes in general (good bikes) have got a lot more expensive over the past few years - some of the components you get on £1000 bikes is more like what used to be on £5-600 bikes.
Anyway - if I buy a new folding bike (I probably won't as I don't really use it enough to justify replacing it), it will be a Brompton as nothing else gets close for the kind of things Bromptons are used for.
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A quick google finds this:-
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tern/link-d7i-2012-folding-bike-ec032583
£575, plus £100 worth of accessories. Sure its not as good as a Brompton overall. But its aluminium/7 speed Nexus hub. Just makes the Brompton look pricey. Saying that I'll still probably get another Brompton!
Blimey - I thought Bromptons were heavy!
Weight: 14.4 kg
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7sp hubs are heavier than Brompton's more complicated 6sp arrangement.
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...nobody ever offers a discount, which is surprising really.
Brompton don't allow resellers to offer a discount.
So they are illegally price fixing?
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A quick google finds this:-
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tern/link-d7i-2012-folding-bike-ec032583
£575, plus £100 worth of accessories. Sure its not as good as a Brompton overall. But its aluminium/7 speed Nexus hub. Just makes the Brompton look pricey. Saying that I'll still probably get another Brompton!
It's a fair point. Bromptons are pricey compared to folders made in the far east at the moment.
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So they are illegally price fixing?
Is it illegal to drop a dealer who sells at below an agreed price? There will be the implied threat of that even if it never happens.
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That Tern is too heavy. . . I wonder how accurate their weights are as some similar bikes seem to have huge weight disparities.
In many departments Tern bikes are evolved way beyond Brompton but in prioritising stiffness they seem to be too heavy in general. Though so are Bromptons with their extraordinarily basic hi-ten steel frames.
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...with their extraordinarily basic hi-ten steel frames.
It might be that that's the best material for the job.
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Why not chromoly?
Perhaps there's an argument that thinner tubing would be more likely to rust through? They could and probably should coat the inside of their rear frame tubes anyway as rust is an issue there.
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Let's not forget the titanium option for the rear frame and forks. I imagine it's difficult to find alternatives for the main frame as such stiffness is required there. It's not like a diamond frame that can have relatively flimsy tubing thanks to its shape.
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Yeah but chromoly is much stronger, is it not? So it's stiffer in tubing. I think I read that it was about 4 times more expensive which I take to be the reason why Brompton like hi-ten:
"High-Tensile (Hi-Ten) Steel
High-tensile or carbon steel is a common and inexpensive alloy comprised of iron mixed with 0.2% to 2.0% carbon. (Of note, when iron is mixed with more than 2.1% carbon it is no longer "steel", it goes by the name "cast iron".)
High-tensile steel is an inexpensive but relatively weak alloy. Although it has essentially the same density as other steels, manufacturers working with hi-ten steel are forced to use thick walled tubes to ensure adequate strength, and rarely use butting. For this reason, high-tensile frames are much heavier than their chromoly counterparts.
Today, high-tensile steel frames are primarily used for children's bikes and are sometimes found on inexpensive adult bikes."
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So they are illegally price fixing?
Is it illegal to drop a dealer who sells at below an agreed price? There will be the implied threat of that even if it never happens.
They used to refuse to supply dealers who sold at a discount, telling them there was no stock available for them. Maybe they still do. Spa Cycles used to sell them at a small discount and...they no longer sell Bromptons. The guy in there described Brompton by using an Old English word for the female genitalia.
I think there is a healthy profit in Bromptons, but you have to factor in the enormous cost of manufacturing in London.
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Two years ago I was looking for a folder, and realistically my choice was between a Brompton and Bike Friday. Brompton has dealers everywhere. Bike Friday has one dealer in NL, in Amsterdam.
The bad part was delivery time though, when I asked the LBS about something other than the 3 speed/hub dynamo ones, they told me delivery times from 6 weeks up to 3 months.
I got a discounted S2L-X from a German store, it had been in the window for 5 years or so. I just checked the website, they still sell Bromptons.
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I wonder how much Brompton could save by opening up in, say, Swansea.
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I think they'd lose some customers. If they offshored, they certainly would. They're almost a Veblen good and they NEED to be reassuringly expensive to give the impression of quality and exclusivity.
I wonder how many of their workers get tax credits just to be able to live in London? I would bet that the taxpayer is subsidising Brompton's wage bill so they can make expensive bikes to sell to rich people. It keeps some skilled jobs in Britain, though.
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I think they'd lose some customers. If they offshored, they certainly would. They're almost a Veblen good and they NEED to be reassuringly expensive to give the impression of quality and exclusivity.
I wonder how many of their workers get tax credits just to be able to live in London? I would bet that the taxpayer is subsidising Brompton's wage bill so they can make expensive bikes to sell to rich people. It keeps some skilled jobs in Britain, though.
Presumably we're also subsidising all the people buying a second Brompton on CycleScheme, or indeed any second/wishlist bike, instead of the 'get into cycling bike' I always thought it was meant to encourage...
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Hi-Ten steel is the same stiffness as Cro-Mo, so a thinner tube wall would be more flexible. Increasing the tubing size to compensate would increase the folded size. Thicker weaker tubes are easier to braze and often more forgiving/ slower crack propagation.
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If you did FEA on the frame, you could probably get more stiffness by using non-round tubes. I'm not sure that the main tube of a Brompton has the same torsional loads as the down tube* of a diamond frame duie to its low position relative to the handlebars and the bent shape. Even if the tube is that big because of torsion (rather than strength, which is my guess) the hinge must introduce more flexibility than a thinner tube would.
*how on earth did a Slingshot bike ever work?
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I think they'd lose some customers. If they offshored, they certainly would. They're almost a Veblen good and they NEED to be reassuringly expensive to give the impression of quality and exclusivity.
At lunch on Saturday, bossman Will was suggesting that a factory in the USA is a possible step. He wouldn't be held on the point as to whether this was an assembly factory or whether they would braze frames out there. They need to reach around 10000 bikes a year going into the US market (which they are a way off) before it made sense. The 'made in the USA' sticker would do wonders for their sales over there. Ironically, it would not help them in South America where made in britan is still very important.
As I said earlier, their more immediate plans are a separate brazing factory somewhere nearby, so no intention of moving from west London currently.
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My niece's boyfriend was told, on his first full working day at the factory, that if he finished building the bike by 4 he could keep it.
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If you did FEA on the frame, you could probably get more stiffness by using non-round tubes. I'm not sure that the main tube of a Brompton has the same torsional loads as the down tube* of a diamond frame duie to its low position relative to the handlebars and the bent shape. Even if the tube is that big because of torsion (rather than strength, which is my guess) the hinge must introduce more flexibility than a thinner tube would.
*how on earth did a Slingshot bike ever work?
Round tubes are best for resisting torsional loads. Non-round tubes can be better (or worse) for bending loads.
The torsion to be resisted between handlebars and seat tube/ cranks is the same, whatever the shape of frame between them.
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They might not have patents, but they will have copyright on the fold AND the "look and feel" so any company wanting to produce a copy would be looking at problems if they copied it directly.
What did happen to Merc?
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The Flamingo-made direct copy couldn't be sold in Europe. Flamingo's 'Birdy-style frame' Brompton copies were theoretically available elsewhere for a while afterwards but I've lost track of what they are up to now.
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Surely a slightly taller ovalized tube would be best? In conjunction with replacing the crappy wedge stem with an Ahead system would result in a much less 'bendy-bar' ride quality.
The design conundrum with the main tube is that it's generally the handle which one uses to carry the folded bike so needs to fit comfortably in the hand, at least in the region near the seat tube.
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Ovalised in which direction, vertically? There are bugger-all lateral bending loads but lots of torsional. There are long levers (handlebars/ stem, pedals/ cranks, seatpost) applying torsional loads to the main tube. The only vertical bending loads are from braking and body weight.
It is difficult to smoothly bend a tube vertically that has been ovalised vertically.
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How much torsional bending is actually taking place?
I'm aware of flex felt when pulling on the handlebars that might originate almost exclusively from the wedge stem, but I've tended to think is a combination of the stem, frame hinge (which behaves like a spring) and the small diameter of the main frame tube.
Other similar steel bikes, i.e. Bike Fridays, Dahons etc. all have taller box / ovalized main frame tubes, though I take your point about problem of bending and those examples are all straight.
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They might not have patents, but they will have copyright on the fold AND the "look and feel" so any company wanting to produce a copy would be looking at problems if they copied it directly.
What did happen to Merc?
I think Brompton successfully litigated them away. The word is that they could be very good (most of the oily bits were every bit as good) but the seatposts rarely fitted snugly, so slipped all the time. Chinese QC.
I think a lot of the torsion that would go into the down tube of a diamond frame could be replaced by sideways bending of the stem (or the stem/head tube interface) on a Brompton.
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The torsional loads on the bicycle are the same regardless of whether there is a monotube with long stem and seatpost tubes or a diamond frame with short stem and seat post tubes.
Torsional stiffness relates to 'enclosed area' so ovalising a tube reduces torsional stiffness for a given length of perimeter. Replacing the B's Hi-Ten main frame with a thinner-walled, slightly larger diameter Cro-Mo version will make little difference in stiffness or weight but will make fabrication slightly more difficult. Going to lower stiffness material like Al (1/3 of steel) or Ti (1/2) would require a significant volume increase in folded size.
Changing to a threadless stem might be interesting but changing a short thickwalled stem insert for a length of larger diameter thickwalled steerer tube isn't a great weight difference. Adjusting a threadless headset without using a starnut or suchlike would imply a need for a threaded adjustment 'unit' between the upper bearing cup and the clamped stem.
Increasing the bending stiffness of the stem or seatpost would require increased diameters with all of the associated implications. You are left with reducing the flex from the hinges. Possible but not a trivial task and risks exchanging an utterly reliable, quiet and forgiving mechanism for something that isn't.
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Good point about the hinges. Let's be honest, who was forgetting about them!? :)
Could a titanium main frame be stiff enough while being substantially lighter than the current steel one?
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Torsional stiffness relates to 'enclosed area' so ovalising a tube reduces torsional stiffness for a given length of perimeter.
Are you saying that e.g. a Dahon Speed frame would be better with a less tall, rounder main tube since lateral bending is insignificant whereas torsional stiffness should be optimised?
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Changing to a threadless stem might be interesting but changing a short thickwalled stem insert for a length of larger diameter thickwalled steerer tube isn't a great weight difference. Adjusting a threadless headset without using a starnut or suchlike would imply a need for a threaded adjustment 'unit' between the upper bearing cup and the clamped stem.
It's not really a big design problem, Dahon addressed it back in 2006 and Tern have tweaked it a little. The result makes the old quill/wedge stem kludge look antiquated. . . well, it's 2012 already, it is outdated.
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An ovalised main is better for vertical bending but worse for lateral bending and torsion.
I don't find a threadless headset to be a great advantage but opinions differ.
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Changing to a threadless stem might be interesting but changing a short thickwalled stem insert for a length of larger diameter thickwalled steerer tube isn't a great weight difference. Adjusting a threadless headset without using a starnut or suchlike would imply a need for a threaded adjustment 'unit' between the upper bearing cup and the clamped stem.
I tried it with mine, using a plain spacer, a Problem Solvers micro-adjust spacer and a regular threadless headset. I had great difficulty keeping it at the correct preload, and eventually went back to threaded.
Dahon's implementation, with a large diameter fork steerer internally threaded for preload adjustment and clamped by the lower half of the stem hinge, worked very nicely.
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Good point about the hinges. Let's be honest, who was forgetting about them!? :)
Could a titanium main frame be stiff enough while being substantially lighter than the current steel one?
It would need to be larger in diameter. The Merc has shown that it can be done with aluminium, so no problem really.
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A quick google finds this:-
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/tern/link-d7i-2012-folding-bike-ec032583
£575, plus £100 worth of accessories. Sure its not as good as a Brompton overall. But its aluminium/7 speed Nexus hub. Just makes the Brompton look pricey. Saying that I'll still probably get another Brompton!
Blimey - I thought Bromptons were heavy!
Weight: 14.4 kg
I reckon in the pre-aluminium era that would have been regarded as a fairly decent weight. That Bromptons weigh less shows they have moved with the times in some respects, whatever may be said of £500-components on £900-bikes.
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Bromptons aren't desperately heavy as a bike, although as a piece of hand luggage you often wish they could be lighter (hint: get Eazy-wheels and don't carry it unless you really have to). The main advantage of the Ti rear frame to me is simply that it doesn't rust, whereas the steel ones are gradually eaten away from the inside of the open tubes.
There are other aspects of the design that they could and should address before thinking about a titanium frame: the crude and expensive-to-fix rear hinge design, the head tube stretching due to lack of reinforcing rings, the soft paint, the highly variable wheelbuild, the rim tape that is too wide for the well of the rim and makes fitting some tyres impossible, the fact that no-one likes the standard gearing, the incredible faff of removing the rear wheel (why can't the chain tensioner have its own boss?) etc. Most of this would cost pennies to address.
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I have never looked :-[ but what is the warranty situation on a Brompton with regards to rust?
Is it really a bad problem :-\
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A good question. I think they will warranty a rusted-out frame for the original owner, but I don't know if it would actually have to break first - probably, since they start rusting as soon as they leave the factory. The problem is that the powdercoat, being melted plastic, keeps it all looking intact until - crack! - and you realise there was no metal left underneath the coating.
Main frames, being thicker and without wide open tubes, crack through fatigue rather than rust. They tend to go at the main hinge.
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There are other aspects of the design that they could and should address before thinking about a titanium frame: .....the fact that no-one likes the standard gearing, ....
I spoke to the technical department at Brompton after fitting my Brommy with a Shimano rear hub and asked why they didn't offer the Shimano 8 or 11 as an option. I was told that it was because they would have to change their packaging to accommodate the wider rear end.
IMO, the only good thing about the bike is the fold.
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To be fair, the intended use of the bike (multi-mode transport) means a 3-speed, or even a singlespeed, is good enough for most people.
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To be fair, the intended use of the bike (multi-mode transport) means a 3-speed, or even a singlespeed, is good enough for most people.
That is true and perhaps why so many are to be seen in London and so few in Wolverhampton. :)
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This comes back to the issue of weight. It's true that if you take e.g. the standard M type the total weight of the bike is reasonable, the problem is that in order to achieve this Brompton opt for under-built components. By the time one has added some decent grips (rather than the foam junk), ezy wheels, Brooks saddle & seat post bung the total weight has gone up a lot. If one wants to e.g. swap the crank to one with independent chainring again the weight is increasing. And then if one decides to install a 7 or 8 speed hub then after all that the bike gets very unwieldy. The frame is too heavy and needs refining, but Brompton provide the option of spending an obscene amount of money for ti parts just to get the overall frame weight within reasonable limits. OK for bankers, I guess.
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You don't need a Brooks though - there are plenty of good plastic saddles. A Flite looks rather cool. A Brooks is pretty disastrous for any bike as regards weight.
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I forgot to mention the right pedal. Underbuilt and essentially junk but anything more substantial would have increased the weight when Brompton ditched the plastic pedal.
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This comes back to the issue of weight.
I set the weight at what I can lift across a railway footbridge. A bag you can get on a shoulder is a big help. I'm using an Ikea Dimpa at the moment. Somewhere along the way I bought a second hand Ti seat post so that probably helps :)
That said, I am only an occasional Brommy user. Since it threw me off last year I am very wary of it and it is now relegated to just popping into town. I have even transferred its name to a bike I trust :)
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Current waiting list is 14 weeks.
Brompton aren't targeting price-sensitive customers.