Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Folders => Topic started by: ElyDave on 10 September, 2016, 03:35:15 pm
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Are Tern (i.e. C7) or Dahon folders any good, or to be avoided at all costs.
I understand I'm in the land of the Brompton fanboyz, but reasoned responses please. Brommies look good, but is it a matter of clever branding and elitism to keep prices high?
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Hard to say as the Brommie is the only folder I have experience of. (Who has more than one folder?)
My neighbour PaulR otp had a Mezzo and, as I understand it, mourns the day he got rid.
Brommie is pricey and, initially, I struggled to love it. But as time has passed, and I've thrown more money (and titanium) at it (it's current weight is 1.5kg less than my Van Nic road bike) it has become a Very useful for get-on-it-without-having-to-change-anything-not-even-shoes ride.
The longest journey on my Brommie was around 40 miles. With hindsight, I wish I'd had spds and not worn civvies.
It is quite flexy, compared to a road bike.
I understand other folders are flexier.
Mine was acquired on a ride to work scheme.
I doubt if I'd bought one without that advantage.
I've no regrets over having bought it.
When I'm too decrepit to get my leg over the top tube of my road bikes, I can see the Brommie coming into it's own.
Maybe with a leccy motor, Tigerr fashion.
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A Warwickshire Lad OTP has a Mezzo for sale. I would...
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Some years ago I bought a couple of Mission 'Space Genie' folders. There's a thread on here.
Despite much modification of mine I came to the conclusion that they would never be something I would want to ride seriously and sold them both.
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I've a brommie and a Tern Link p24. Not had the brommie long but initial impressions: brommie faster (or should that be nippier) and less faff over short distances, but if on a longer ride, especially with hills, I'd got for the Tern....it ain't fast but it'll get you there with less pain.
Brommie is less hassle to fold, and easier to handle once folded, partly because it has less kit on it and so weighs less.
Tern seems better made and less faff to work on...i.e. taking the wheels off doesn't result in half the bike falling apart :P.
If I had to choose the question I would ask myself is: what do I want it for? Short journeys around town the Brommie is preferable, long touring type journeys in the wilds the Tern is preferable.
I've also had Birdys. These are much more like the Tern than the Brommie. But they are not as nice to ride and I always got filthy when folding them!
Oh, and I've had Airnimal chameleons.......very very very nice to ride, folding is of a similar awkwardness to the Birdy.
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AIUI most things ride as well as a Brompton; what a Brompton gives you is longevity and access to spare parts. They are still extremely expensive for what they are; you are paying £900 for the quality of components you'd normally find on a £200 bike, and for some very expensive British labour making the frames and assembling them. I think Brompton are charging what the market will stand, which is basically the Cyclescheme allowance. A new M3L or S3L was just over £500 in 2009, and general inflation has not been running at 12% a year since then.
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In my case it's trips to the London office once or twice a month, maybe the odd train ride to Cambridge and onwards, or one or two other commuter cities, that's why I'm loath to pay even used brommie prices
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The Dahons I've ridden have been OK. If I had to get a bike on a rush-hour train I'd want a Brommie; as has been noted before, it has the best fold at the cost of ride quality (though unlike some I've not found it any worse than other folders; I've only done flattish journeys of no great distance.) They are expensive for what you get, but do seem to hold their value pretty well; I plan to get one when funds permit.
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So it sounds like no great differene between them.
So in order
Brommie if the funds allow, as they retain value
Otherwise Tern, Dahon, Mezzo
Birdy, Airnimal
I've seen two airnimals, one of which had lasted very well, the other seemed to be falling apart, but that could have been how well it was looked after just as easily as how well it was made.
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Earlier Airnimals tended to fall apart - the rims split, the seat masts came apart and those with 105 had the really shonky first 9spd version that didn't last well. Never had any trouble with my rims, after a couple of seat masts came apart they changed the design to one that seemed reliable and I binned the 9spd and went to 1spd. Then the frame snapped in two so I gave up.
But price-wise I fear they are up near the brommie - there's not a lot on them that costs much more than Terns or Dahons AFAICS yet there is certainly a premium on buying one. I guess it might be because they are sold in lower numbers.
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I'm impressed with the Tern Link D8 I bought 2nd hand recently. Enough to sell the Brommie but it's heavier and larger when folded of course. I've had three 20" wheeled Dahons before. The Link is so good I could contemplate touring on it.
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i will be building a folding bike (as a winter project) based on tern link frame, but with some fancy bits and pieces. i couldn't find the one i like readily available..
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As Rogerzilla says, a Brompton is a £200 bike that costs £1000. The fold is unsurpassed if you're using public transport but the weight still means they're quite a beast to lug around. They're not that bad to ride and I often ride home on mine (about 22 miles) – and they're very perky and responsive in traffic. I use mine when I'm train/ride comboing to the mothership (I'll usually get the train in, ride home) or there's a possibility of beer.
I bought a cheaper folder (Oyama, I think) before the Brompton. That's a bit of a knock-off of the standard 20 inch folders but it's a pleasure to ride. It's like folding a horse though.
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i will be building a folding bike (as a winter project) based on tern link frame, but with some fancy bits and pieces. i couldn't find the one i like readily available..
Did you find a second hand frame? Can't see frame only as an option on their website.
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I have Dahon Helios 8 speed (twist grip) gathering dust in the utility room. It has a BMX rim on the back as I kept going through rims on my then 15 mile each way commute on rough roads. It has 20" wheels with Marathons on them. It got replaced by my Brommie. Anything over £100 would do me. It has telescopic handlebars and therefore flexier than Brompton but it'd be fine for the occasional outings round London.
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Whereabouts are you Phil, to take a look/test ride?
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My (second-hand) Dahon Vitesse 7 is very good. The ride is probably slightly better than a Brompton (larger wheels and derailleur), and it only cost £180. However, the fold is a bit larger and marginally slower.
So it depends what is most important to you, and the differences may be relatively small.
Dahon spares availability is very good (though it helps to know where to go for parts). I've replaced a wheel, the rear rack, V-brakes, a chainset, pedals, chain, cassette, and tyres, and added an extension to move the bars forward a bit.
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As I said on the other thread, I am amazed at these stories of 20-mile rides on Bromptons and other folders. The ride position seems to make riding up hills or into a headwind so much harder than on a full-size bike. Maybe I just need to try it out?
All these tales of different bikes to buy are somewhat academic at the moment as as the shops seem to be going for Bromptons only - Evans don't seem to stock anything else much at all! Is there some sort of supply problem? I can't find a local (or even not that local) shops that has any Dahons at all, for example. Terns, the same (I was curious to try one of their 24-inch wheel models - no availability anywhere in Cambridgeshire). Even web shops seem to be struggling.
I have bought bikes sight unseen before, but it's not ideal.
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Different Folders have different uses.
Which one is best depends entirely on why you want your bike to fold.
1) To store it in your Flat for security? Then a "full size" folder may be best. Dahon do several MTB-style folders
2) To take on Public transport? Hard to think past a Brompton.
3) To carry in your car for rides down a tow-path? Dahon make several 20" wheel bikes that would suit.
I've owned a Dahon DH7 (hub gear) and I now own a Brompton M3.
I want a bike I can quickly fold and take into a Cafe after exploring a town or city. For me nothing comes close to a Brompton.
They ride very well, much better than people who never rode one will say. The Dahon was marginally better I'd say.
The Dahon was more of a faff to fold and the final, folded, package was slightly too big to be slot under a cafe table.
The Brompton fold encloses the chain. That's a HUGE positive if you plan to be carrying the bike and lifting it into cars/trains/buses.
The Dahon left the chain and drivetrain exposed totally. You need to remember to avoid getting oil on your car carpet or anyone stood on the other side of the bike.
You won't lose any money if you buy a used Brompton. Pay £600, try it for a few months and sell it for £600 if you don't get on with it. They really don't depreciate much lower than £600.
Oh.. the luggage options, that utilise the Brompton front mounting block, are superb. Unclipping your bag and folding the Brommie is a genuine 15 second job.
This is me doing a fairly average fold/unfold. >>> CLICKY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwSgiUhc8AE) <<<
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I, for one, am impressed with the way you deal with both wheels at the same time when it comes to folding or unfolding.
I will try and master that technique, when I return home this evening.
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As I said on the other thread, I am amazed at these stories of 20-mile rides on Bromptons and other folders. The ride position seems to make riding up hills or into a headwind so much harder than on a full-size bike.
The riding position isn't necessarily that different, depending on what you're comparing. Other than bar width, an S-type Brompton isn't that different from a sportier hybrid, for example.
The effects of climbing and wind are subjective. A light rider will find bike weight and crosswinds are a massive deal, where a heavier rider will notice the extra frame flex of a folder, shrug and get on with it (At least until the seatpost slips - Ed.). Headwinds are a bastard in any kind of upright position, but it depends on what you're used to.
I'm a lardy rider who doesn't really notice bike weight and finds all upright bicycles have crap aerodynamics, so for me the compromises of folding bikes are mostly ergonomics, gear range and rolling efficiency. But the handling is brilliant for city riding, they're train-proof and you don't have to lock them up outside - a worthwhile trade-off some of the time.
I wouldn't hesitate to do a 20 mile ride on my Brompton if it was the bike I had available, but I might not want to make a habit of it.
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I, for one, am impressed with the way you deal with both wheels at the same time when it comes to folding or unfolding.
I will try and master that technique, when I return home this evening.
I saw someone on Youtube doing it and I liked the way it makes a bike appear from nowhere (or seemingly disappear into nothing).
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Bike Friday also deserves a mention. Also expensive, but probably less so compared to the current Brompton prices.
The Tikket has a super slick fold, but a price tag to match.
The New World Tourist looks like a decent deal for the money: https://www.bikefriday.com/folding-bikes/bikes/new-world-tourist/
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I have been running a Mezzo D10 for over three years, which I bought second hand. I love the fold (it is slightly bigger than the Brompton, but not significantly so), and the fact that the parts are all standard - I am not beholden to Brompton replacements. The lack of a hinge in the main part of the frame really helps the ride as there is no major flex, and whilst I have ridden and been impressed with a single speed Brompton, the fact is that the prices have been pushed as far as the market will take them, and even secondhand they are pricey.
I see there is a Mezzo D4 for sale in the YACF classifieds - that might be a good entry point.
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As I said on the other thread, I am amazed at these stories of 20-mile rides on Bromptons and other folders. The ride position seems to make riding up hills or into a headwind so much harder than on a full-size bike. Maybe I just need to try it out?.....
When I had M-bars, my wind cheating/alternate position was to hold the bars inboard, by bell/5speed shifter/ brake lever mount, thumb curved around bell/ circular shifter body part (ie as if narrower bars), leaning forwards with elbows slightly out.
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Different Folders have different uses.
Which one is best depends entirely on why you want your bike to fold.
1) To store it in your Flat for security? Then a "full size" folder may be best. Dahon do several MTB-style folders
2) To take on Public transport? Hard to think past a Brompton.
3) To carry in your car for rides down a tow-path? Dahon make several 20" wheel bikes that would suit.
I've owned a Dahon DH7 (hub gear) and I now own a Brompton M3.
I want a bike I can quickly fold and take into a Cafe after exploring a town or city. For me nothing comes close to a Brompton.
They ride very well, much better than people who never rode one will say. The Dahon was marginally better I'd say.
The Dahon was more of a faff to fold and the final, folded, package was slightly too big to be slot under a cafe table.
The Brompton fold encloses the chain. That's a HUGE positive if you plan to be carrying the bike and lifting it into cars/trains/buses.
The Dahon left the chain and drivetrain exposed totally. You need to remember to avoid getting oil on your car carpet or anyone stood on the other side of the bike.
You won't lose any money if you buy a used Brompton. Pay £600, try it for a few months and sell it for £600 if you don't get on with it. They really don't depreciate much lower than £600.
Oh.. the luggage options, that utilise the Brompton front mounting block, are superb. Unclipping your bag and folding the Brommie is a genuine 15 second job.
This is me doing a fairly average fold/unfold. >>> CLICKY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwSgiUhc8AE) <<<
My need is the occasional visit to my London office, 3 or four clinics a year at Addenbrookes, and maybe roped in for the weekly shopping run into town. Storage not an issue, more the convenience of getting onto the train.
Regardless of the neatness of fold, and without having a Brommie next to a Dahon, Tern, Mezzo etc I can't compare that, but the whole point of this thread is that I can't bring myself to pay £600 for that convenience when I'm not a daily commuter, regardless of retained value. Especially when several here have pointed out the marketing over substance that I suspected.
I can take slightly lesser ease of folding for the irregular usage. Plus having just sold one bike, my plan was not to plough all of that back into another upwrong - the ultimate plan is another 'bent.
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That really answers it then. For you, there's no killer reason to pay to get a Brompton. A second-hand Dahon or similar (Tern, or one of the many brands actually made by Dahon - compare things such as the locking handles where it folds to be sure) should fit the bill.
Or a cheaper brand of folder (of which there are many) if you're happy with that.
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In which case I's suggest the Dahon D7HG (7 speed hub-gear). The hub gear allows for a chain-case. (Well it did on mine) which reduces the chances of oiling up everyone on the train.
I sold mine to Clarion for about £170 I think. That's a lot of convenience for not that much money.
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/Bike%20Stable/IMG_8531.jpg)
£200 should get you something for what you need from Ebay.
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As I said on the other thread, I am amazed at these stories of 20-mile rides on Bromptons and other folders. The ride position seems to make riding up hills or into a headwind so much harder than on a full-size bike. Maybe I just need to try it out?
All these tales of different bikes to buy are somewhat academic at the moment as as the shops seem to be going for Bromptons only - Evans don't seem to stock anything else much at all! Is there some sort of supply problem? I can't find a local (or even not that local) shops that has any Dahons at all, for example. Terns, the same (I was curious to try one of their 24-inch wheel models - no availability anywhere in Cambridgeshire). Even web shops seem to be struggling.
I have bought bikes sight unseen before, but it's not ideal.
I did two 30-odd mile rides from Heathrow to home last week with a fully loaded bag on the front (change of clothes, waterproof jacket, notepad, Macbook etc.), no problemo. With flat bars the ride position isn't that much different to my hybrid. The world may be different if you use drop bars, of course. And I finish on steep hills as I live by the North Downs (the final one to the bottom of my driveway is a thankfully brief 23%).
Apropos of other comments, Bromptons aren't a bad bike, but you are paying for the fold and it is the best. I wouldn't fancy getting my larger folder on a rush hour Southern train. As LEE mentions, folding the chain on in the inside is a big plus if you don't keep your bicycle especially clean, I'm not sure who thought putting the dirty bits on the outside of a folded bicycle is a good idea. My other folder has a chain guard, but a lot of folders don't.
If no one is looking I can fold my Brompton like an origami ninja. The moment a pair of eyes fall on me, it all goes wrong and sections of the bike go everywhere.
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With flat bars the ride position isn't that much different to my hybrid.
Exactly. Don't judge the Brompton by the M/P type. The S-type is a different animal, with different steering geometry and markedly different handling, it's not just the shape of the bars.
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Not quite correct. All Bromptons use the same frame, the steering geometry doesn't alter for different models.
The S-stem is taller and extends further forward than the M-stem does. The lesser forward extension of the M-stem is largely compensated by the M-bar being higher and orientated vertically, so as the grips get higher, they move further forward of the steering axis. I am tall enough that my M-bar is approximately level with the saddle, much the same relative positioning as the S-bar is for a shorter person.
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Ah okay. The net result of the M-type handling like a Raleigh Chopper and the S-type handling like a proper (small wheeled) bike is the important thing.
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For me, the M-type steers fine, probably because I am fairly tall and accordingly lean forward enough to put sufficient weight on the handlebars and front wheel.
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Chain guards are a brilliant idea on Dahons. So much cleaner (*Googles*)
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I find the Brompton S steers like a toy scooter, but some describe it as 'responsive'.
Of the folders I have tried (http://cyclingfortransport.com/reviews/bikes/comparison-of-brompton-mezzo-dahon-folding-bike/), I found rideability improved but folded size increased as I went down this list:
Brompton
Mezzo
Dahon 20" wheeler
A test ride will help you find what you can tolerate.
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For me, the M-type steers fine, probably because I am fairly tall and accordingly lean forward enough to put sufficient weight on the handlebars and front wheel.
Same here, must be a height thing. It's certainly not Chopper like in geometry with the M bars. If I was shorter I might have different bars but the m bars suit just fine.
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In my experience of riding a Tern link D8, the Tern is a nicer ride generally but it's fold is lousy, it just becomes an unwieldy, bulky mass of bike bits that flail around without much warning, it won't win you any friends or praise if you're using it to commute on a train.
On the other hand, the Brompton is generally a little bit less of a comfortable ride, the three speed hub gear doesn't allow you to keep spinning at your cadence of choice, but it's fold is unrivalled, it's lighter than a Tern and it fits in the boot of a small car.
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I have an Airnimal Chameleon and (we have) an Airnimal Joey.
The former I used* to use for triathlon as it was a lightweight bike ideally suited to tight courses and dodging inexperienced riders. It fits in the boot of the car and still leaves room for passengers. It's also been over an alp or two and I've taken it on sportives - just to annoy the wannabe racers! The Joey is great because my wife and I can both fit on it** - with the addition of an adjustable stem. I have used both on train journeys at one time or another, but I wouldn't use either for commuting, although the Joey is much quicker to fold.
* and I might again if I get back into them.
** not at the same time!
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Having recently "graduated" from a Dahon 20" wheel folder to a Brompton 6-speed - and as an infrequent/low-mileage user - my impressions are pretty simple :
Dahon is the better ride but tricky to fold . . .Brompton fold is unsurpassed but riding anything more than 2 or 3 miles isn't brilliant for me (at 6'4" and 94kg)
... and the thing I keep doing is standing over the Brompton, letting go of the bars and expecting the top-tube to lean on my thigh! . . . have to catch it before it falls completely sideways :hand:
Rob
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... and the thing I keep doing is standing over the Brompton, letting go of the bars and expecting the top-tube to lean on my thigh! . . . have to catch it before it falls completely sideways :hand:
Trick is to wedge the saddle nose in the small of your back and a pedal against your shin, which isn't comfortable, but suffices for short two-handed jobs. My bar-ends are nicely scuffed from the associated learning process.
I still forget to step through to mount the bike :facepalm:
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... and the thing I keep doing is standing over the Brompton, letting go of the bars and expecting the top-tube to lean on my thigh! . . . have to catch it before it falls completely sideways :hand:
Trick is to wedge the saddle nose in the small of your back and a pedal against your shin, which isn't comfortable, but suffices for short two-handed jobs. My bar-ends are nicely scuffed from the associated learning process.
I still forget to step through to mount the bike :facepalm:
... I'm most concerned about scuffing the Honey Brooks B17 if the machine falls over - and yes, I cock my leg over to get on, just seems more natural.
Rob
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... and the thing I keep doing is standing over the Brompton, letting go of the bars and expecting the top-tube to lean on my thigh! . . . have to catch it before it falls completely sideways :hand:
Trick is to wedge the saddle nose in the small of your back and a pedal against your shin, which isn't comfortable, but suffices for short two-handed jobs. My bar-ends are nicely scuffed from the associated learning process.
I still forget to step through to mount the bike :facepalm:
... I'm most concerned about scuffing the Honey Brooks B17 if the machine falls over - and yes, I cock my leg over to get on, just seems more natural.
Rob
You're not the only one, Rob.