Author Topic: [HAMR] Tarzan (Kurt Searvogel)  (Read 450623 times)

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #825 on: 01 February, 2015, 10:45:23 pm »
My dad, in his racing days (late fifties/early sixties) claims he used to draft wagons at 30 mph+.

Generally, I believe him, though his tale of getting stuck inbetween a wagon and its trailer, and having to hammer on for about ten miles along the A1 with the connecting chain slapping alongside him until he could escape - I always found that a little implausible.

I used to draft lorries and vans in the 70s. The reasons why TT courses on the A1 ('Boro') was because of the drag from motor vehicles.

Aye - I believe that part, it's just the specific tale about getting trapped I'm not sure of.

He has told the tale of a famous TT-er (Alf Engers, I think, who's of an age with my old man) setting off from the top of Stainmore on the A66, and setting such a pace that by the time the officials came to check his progress at Scotch Corner, he was already on his way to Boroughbridge.

hillbilly

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #826 on: 01 February, 2015, 10:46:20 pm »
There are recumbent categories in RAAM.

Thanks for clarifying  :)

IanDG

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Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #827 on: 01 February, 2015, 10:51:16 pm »
My dad, in his racing days (late fifties/early sixties) claims he used to draft wagons at 30 mph+.

Generally, I believe him, though his tale of getting stuck inbetween a wagon and its trailer, and having to hammer on for about ten miles along the A1 with the connecting chain slapping alongside him until he could escape - I always found that a little implausible.

I used to draft lorries and vans in the 70s. The reasons why TT courses on the A1 ('Boro') was because of the drag from motor vehicles.

Aye - I believe that part, it's just the specific tale about getting trapped I'm not sure of.

He has told the tale of a famous TT-er (Alf Engers, I think, who's of an age with my old man) setting off from the top of Stainmore on the A66, and setting such a pace that by the time the officials came to check his progress at Scotch Corner, he was already on his way to Boroughbridge.

Engers was well known for his 'drafting' skills - I learnt a few tricks of my own too ;)

When something this big passes, you have to take advantage.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
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Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #828 on: 01 February, 2015, 11:38:05 pm »
My dad, in his racing days (late fifties/early sixties) claims he used to draft wagons at 30 mph+.

Generally, I believe him, though his tale of getting stuck inbetween a wagon and its trailer, and having to hammer on for about ten miles along the A1 with the connecting chain slapping alongside him until he could escape - I always found that a little implausible.

I used to draft lorries and vans in the 70s. The reasons why TT courses on the A1 ('Boro') was because of the drag from motor vehicles.

Aye - I believe that part, it's just the specific tale about getting trapped I'm not sure of.

He has told the tale of a famous TT-er (Alf Engers, I think, who's of an age with my old man) setting off from the top of Stainmore on the A66, and setting such a pace that by the time the officials came to check his progress at Scotch Corner, he was already on his way to Boroughbridge.

Engers was well known for his 'drafting' skills - I learnt a few tricks of my own too ;)

When something this big passes, you have to take advantage.

Especially if the brake cables have been chewed though.
It is simpler than it looks.

Mr Larrington

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Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #829 on: 02 February, 2015, 12:22:56 am »
I would imagine banning recumbents was considered impractical, as it would be very difficult to monitor reliably.  It surprised me that the UMCA didn't try to do so, however, given they run RAAM and that (aiui) forbids bewheeled hammocks.

Having finally managed to navigate RAAM's labyrinthine webby SCIENCE it would seem that Barbara Buatois is indeed credited with overall victory in the women's division of the 2010 race.

I'm fairly sure that RAAM is run by a separate organisation though the founders of UMCA are all RAAM veterans.
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Kim

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Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #830 on: 02 February, 2015, 12:31:59 am »
I really don't get all this "recumbents aren't bicycles" stuff.  Leaving aside that that's very often untrue, why pick out a certain set of geometries for special persecution, rather than, say, carbon fibre or dérailleur gears or tri-bars or pneumatic tyres, or any of the myriad other things that might give cyclists advantages under the right conditions.  To say nothing of the enormous scope for manipulating the conditions that's possible within the agreed rules.

Anyone suggesting that it's because "recumbents are easier" should go and do 205 miles a day on one to prove that point.

Anyone suggesting that this is in fact a saddle sores competition, well, "GO TEETHGRINDER!"

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #831 on: 02 February, 2015, 01:01:25 am »
After his late start, it looks like Kurt has perhaps finally called it a day. Not sure how far he's been - I don't trust any of the trackers today as I think he did some going round in circles near the start, and that causes them to underestimate.

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #832 on: 02 February, 2015, 01:02:16 am »
205.9 miles in fact - much more than the tracker suggests.

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #833 on: 02 February, 2015, 01:31:31 am »
I really don't get all this "recumbents aren't bicycles" stuff.  Leaving aside that that's very often untrue, why pick out a certain set of geometries for special persecution,

It's just continuing the UCI's persecution I think: started in what, the 30s, so there's clearly no reason for it not to continue.

That aside, given the different characteristics of recumbents vs DF bikes, treating them as different classes, as with tandems or trikes, is scarcely unreasonable. But given the UMCA hasn't done so for this record, sniping about Kurt using one is just about as unworthy as sniping about him riding in Florida or using personal support.

mattc

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Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #834 on: 02 February, 2015, 06:58:53 am »
Whilst I happen to agree about the "worth" of using anything but an upright bicycle, at the end of the day The UMCA permit use of the dark side of the force.

Everyone is free to make a value judgement.  But what I see at the moment are a lot of people ragging on Kurt because he isn't Steve. 
What I see is a lot of people who take your view about uprights-vs-bents, AND who are enthusiastic Steve fans.

And I see YOU ragging on these people purely for the offence of being Steve fans.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #835 on: 02 February, 2015, 07:12:54 am »
I really don't get all this "recumbents aren't bicycles" stuff.  Leaving aside that that's very often untrue, why pick out a certain set of geometries for special persecution,

It's just continuing the UCI's persecution I think: started in what, the 30s, so there's clearly no reason for it not to continue.

That aside, given the different characteristics of recumbents vs DF bikes, treating them as different classes, as with tandems or trikes, is scarcely unreasonable. But given the UMCA hasn't done so for this record, sniping about Kurt using one is just about as unworthy as sniping about him riding in Florida or using personal support.
The main reason that recumbents have a different category of racing is that they have different riding and aerodynamic characteristics. They are hard to climb with because of the muscle groups used and you are not able to use your weight. On the flat they can be much faster because the force of wind resisting a rider is proportional to the square of the speed and the largest factor is the frontal area. This is why tri bars are popular and one of the two reasons why Steve is using them (the other been comfort). Kurt has access to large very flat lands and a recumbent could provide a significant speed advantage. Personally I think it was a mistake to allow recumbents to be included in the record attempt. But I am not on the committee that decided the rules.

Link that explains wind resistance http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/aero/formulas.htm

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #836 on: 02 February, 2015, 07:28:59 am »
Yes, some bikes are more aerodynamic than others. We know that already. That doesn't really answer the question why some types of bike are deemed unfair - I bet Kurt's Cervelo is more aerodynamic than Steve's Raleigh but no one has objected to that. In the absence of a cogent argument otherwise, I'll have to assume it's just irrational prejudice against difference.

You'll note that things like fairings are banned, since they are deemed to provide *too much* advantage.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #837 on: 02 February, 2015, 07:46:25 am »
Everyone is free to make a value judgement.  But what I see at the moment are a lot of people ragging on Kurt because he isn't Steve. 

^^ Yes, this. It's possible to be an enthusiastic fan of Steve without whining constantly about Kurt using what he thinks are the best bikes and conditions available to him within the rules. Steve is doing the same - he's just making different choices. Perhaps we'll see who chose more wisely later in the year, though I worry it'll actually be luck and injury-freeness that chooses between them.

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #838 on: 02 February, 2015, 07:47:36 am »
I really don't get all this "recumbents aren't bicycles" stuff.  Leaving aside that that's very often untrue, why pick out a certain set of geometries for special persecution, rather than, say, carbon fibre or dérailleur gears or tri-bars or pneumatic tyres, or ...

...or aerobars?

Neither are allowed in road racing but both give an aerodynamic advantage. 

I agree that it's not obvious why the line should be drawn specifically at recumbents for this competition.   

hillbilly

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #839 on: 02 February, 2015, 07:55:01 am »
Whilst I happen to agree about the "worth" of using anything but an upright bicycle, at the end of the day The UMCA permit use of the dark side of the force.

Everyone is free to make a value judgement.  But what I see at the moment are a lot of people ragging on Kurt because he isn't Steve. 
What I see is a lot of people who take your view about uprights-vs-bents, AND who are enthusiastic Steve fans.

And I see YOU ragging on these people purely for the offence of being Steve fans.

Putting aside your rudeness of a virtual jab of the finger implied by your response, I'll simply point out that it is possible to be a Steve fan without harping on about or criticising Kurt for every choice he makes.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #840 on: 02 February, 2015, 07:57:11 am »
Aerobars are banned from road racing on not entirely unreasonable safety grounds but are allowed in ITTs.

Recumbents aren't even allowed in ITTs. Maybe they should be?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #841 on: 02 February, 2015, 08:08:32 am »
I read one report about recumbents in RRs and it said about the safety of forward projecting cranks and pedals being ‘too dangerous’ in a multi rider crash.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #842 on: 02 February, 2015, 08:10:28 am »
Yes, that's why aerobars are banned too, but what about ITTs?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #843 on: 02 February, 2015, 09:21:43 am »
Survival of the fitness and adapted to your environment - that's what these two riders are both doing in their own necessary individual ways.
If recumbents are allowed - that's the way it is, get over it. It's hardly Florida, and it could get boring, but Steve could of course be using one up and down the flatlands of Lincolnshire later in the spring/summer had he so desired, but like I said earlier, I doubt the thought crossed his mind. He's just doesn't seem interested. But this option is open to him too.

The only way to get a level playing field is to ride the same bikes, on the same roads in the same country and the same day at the same times, eat the same food, sleep the same hours....and on and on. Otherwise - there will always be disparities - if you want to find them.
Garry Broad

RichForrest

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Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #844 on: 02 February, 2015, 09:37:07 am »
Steve could have ridden recumbent but decided not to as he's not used to riding one.
Last year he rode 50+ miles from Cambridge to MK on the back of my tandem, within 2 miles his heart rate reached 180bpm (IIRC?) we were going at a good speed uphill mind you!
He said elsewhere on here that it would take a while to get his muscles used to it and that is time wasted that he could be riding further on his own bike.


Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #845 on: 02 February, 2015, 09:37:25 am »
The online extracts of the 'Unsurpassed' book point out that the competing teams called a truce at the end of July over the use of pacers, manufacturers wanted to limit the expense of employing professionals.
Tommy moved to Ireland on the outbreak of war, but didn't like the roads.
Raleigh made fuzes during the war, but bicycle manufacture continued in Ireland.

http://www.mousehold-press.co.uk/detail_tommy_godwin.cfm

Quote
During the Second World War, the Raleigh factory in Nottingham was used for the production of fuzes. Bicycle production was reduced to approximately 5% of its peacetime capacity.[15]

In 1939 Raleigh opened a bicycle factory at 6 Hanover Quay, Dublin, Ireland and commenced bicycle production there. The Raleigh (Ireland) business expanded and moved to 8–11 Hanover Quay, Dublin in 1943. The plant produced complete bicycles and Sturmey-Archer hubs, and remained in production until 1976, when the factory burned down. Models produced there latterly were the Chopper and Triumph 20. The head badges changed in the late 1960s, possibly after the passing of the Trade Descriptions Act in the UK. Dublin-made machines no longer had "Nottingham England" on the Heron or Triumph head badge, the panel being left blank instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh_Bicycle_Company

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #846 on: 02 February, 2015, 12:04:34 pm »
The online extracts of the 'Unsurpassed' book point out that the competing teams called a truce at the end of July over the use of pacers, manufacturers wanted to limit the expense of employing professionals.
Tommy moved to Ireland on the outbreak of war, but didn't like the roads.
Raleigh made fuzes during the war, but bicycle manufacture continued in Ireland.

http://www.mousehold-press.co.uk/detail_tommy_godwin.cfm

Quote
During the Second World War, the Raleigh factory in Nottingham was used for the production of fuzes. Bicycle production was reduced to approximately 5% of its peacetime capacity.[15]

In 1939 Raleigh opened a bicycle factory at 6 Hanover Quay, Dublin, Ireland and commenced bicycle production there. The Raleigh (Ireland) business expanded and moved to 8–11 Hanover Quay, Dublin in 1943. The plant produced complete bicycles and Sturmey-Archer hubs, and remained in production until 1976, when the factory burned down. Models produced there latterly were the Chopper and Triumph 20. The head badges changed in the late 1960s, possibly after the passing of the Trade Descriptions Act in the UK. Dublin-made machines no longer had "Nottingham England" on the Heron or Triumph head badge, the panel being left blank instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh_Bicycle_Company

That is ace, thanks for digging it out. I have discussed the Ireland story with Godfrey and asked him where his source was, as I could not see a logical gap in Godwin's mileage when he transferred over and could not find any newspaper reports. Godfrey gave me a single clipping that he had stating that Godwin had spent time in Ireland, but no details. But your point about Raleigh shows a motive and possibly some logistics as Raleigh could have organised it.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #847 on: 02 February, 2015, 12:10:00 pm »
Have a chat to Tony Hadland about the Irish connection. He recently wrote a comprehensive Raleigh history and assisted Steve's sponsorship.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #848 on: 02 February, 2015, 12:29:18 pm »

Re: Tarzan.
« Reply #849 on: 02 February, 2015, 12:48:40 pm »
Kurt has started up for the day, heading West from where he finished last night.