Author Topic: Base training (Read 252101 times)

DuncanM · « **Reply #1475 on:** 09 March, 2019, 08:34:40 am »

The below is specific to the testing as done by Trainer Road. Different protocols do different warmups and pre-testing clearouts, so if you are doing it on a different platform, you might find it very differet. Also, n=1.

I started using the ramp test last year when it arrived in Beta, and I really liked it. It's much more mindless than the 20 minute test - you just keep to the power until you can't. Also, it's quicker (over in about 25 minutes) and less TSS, so you can either tack on another short workout afterwards, or leave it as a low TSS day.

However, I think it suits people who have less experience or have maybe changed their FTP significantly. You also need to be fuelled and psyched up for the last couple of minutes of suffering - they make a massive difference to the final number. I actually went back to the 20 minute test last time I did one as I've been doing Sustained Power build, and I think I had better endurance near threshold but without the pop at the top end. I also had a couple of ramp tests where I quit before my legs gave up. One significant thing to be aware of with the 20 minute test in TR is that if you stick to the power it sets for you, you get an FTP decrease! You need to set the intensity to 105% or so in order to get the same number as you started with!

simonp · « **Reply #1476 on:** 09 March, 2019, 07:53:46 pm »

Have finished with competitive rowing and training for now to focus on the cycling. Haven't cycled since last weekend, did a 5km rowing race today - was supposed to be a 6km event but it was cancelled, so we did our own. Did our fastest time yet, so good to go out on a high. I've not trained since Monday to be fresh for today and that will have helped.

Now I'll have fewer excuses for failing cycling workouts! Starting tomorrow with either an outdoor ride or a sweet-spot effort, dependent on the weather.

Frank9755 · « **Reply #1477 on:** 10 March, 2019, 08:48:48 am »

I've just abandoned an under /over session shortly after starting s just didn't feel like it and legs were heavy. Am struggling with a cold, which is my excuse, but I probably could have done it if I'd really wanted to but I didn't!

Phil W · « **Reply #1478 on:** 10 March, 2019, 08:56:58 am »

Quote from: DuncanM on 09 March, 2019, 08:34:40 am

The below is specific to the testing as done by Trainer Road. Different protocols do different warmups and pre-testing clearouts, so if you are doing it on a different platform, you might find it very differet. Also, n=1.

I started using the ramp test last year when it arrived in Beta, and I really liked it. It's much more mindless than the 20 minute test - you just keep to the power until you can't. Also, it's quicker (over in about 25 minutes) and less TSS, so you can either tack on another short workout afterwards, or leave it as a low TSS day.

However, I think it suits people who have less experience or have maybe changed their FTP significantly. You also need to be fuelled and psyched up for the last couple of minutes of suffering - they make a massive difference to the final number. I actually went back to the 20 minute test last time I did one as I've been doing Sustained Power build, and I think I had better endurance near threshold but without the pop at the top end. I also had a couple of ramp tests where I quit before my legs gave up. One significant thing to be aware of with the 20 minute test in TR is that if you stick to the power it sets for you, you get an FTP decrease! You need to set the intensity to 105% or so in order to get the same number as you started with!

Interesting. I do the 20 min test on slope mode. I am not on TR just read about the ramp test in their blog. What are the steps, 10 watts each or more? Might stick with 20 min test next week but also do a ramp test for comparison.

zigzag · « **Reply #1479 on:** 10 March, 2019, 09:03:30 am »

tr ramp test starts at 46% for 5min, then each step is +6% (52, 58...) a minute long until you pop.

Phil W · « **Reply #1480 on:** 10 March, 2019, 09:33:42 am »

Thanks

DuncanM · « **Reply #1481 on:** 10 March, 2019, 01:40:13 pm »

Worth noting that the TR 20 minute test includes a 5 minute clearout interval before the 20 minute test. The theory is that it depletes the anaerobic stores so your 20 minute test is just aerobic. The final FTP value is 90% of the 20 minute average power. For the ramp test, the FTP is 75% of the best 1 minute average power, but you have to follow the steps - if you skip a couple you could probably get a better 1 minute number, but it probably wouldn't be so representative. I think the time you have to hit is 19 and a half minutes - if you go beyond that then you have a higher FTP.

rob · « **Reply #1482 on:** 10 March, 2019, 01:53:03 pm »

Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons. 2hr tempo like session planned for this morning. Managed 90 mins but really stuffed. I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery. Either that or take the 200k easier.

Off to the cinema to see Captain Marvel and eat chocolate.

simonp · « **Reply #1483 on:** 10 March, 2019, 01:59:07 pm »

Quote from: rob on 10 March, 2019, 01:53:03 pm

Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons. 2hr tempo like session planned for this morning. Managed 90 mins but really stuffed. I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery. Either that or take the 200k easier.

Off to the cinema to see Captain Marvel and eat chocolate.

That seems like a lot to fit in after a 200k.

rob · « **Reply #1484 on:** 10 March, 2019, 05:39:54 pm »

Quote from: simonp on 10 March, 2019, 01:59:07 pm

Quote from: rob on 10 March, 2019, 01:53:03 pm
Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons. 2hr tempo like session planned for this morning. Managed 90 mins but really stuffed. I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery. Either that or take the 200k easier.

Off to the cinema to see Captain Marvel and eat chocolate.

That seems like a lot to fit in after a 200k.

I have come to that conclusion. Film was good, though.

DuncanM · « **Reply #1485 on:** 10 March, 2019, 05:41:04 pm »

My back is much improved after being beaten up by a sports massage guy I know on Friday. Today I did a 30 minute "Zone 2" ride - lots of it spent in the aero bars (I think it might actually be more comfortable there than on the horns). I'm doing a ton of stretching and a little core strength stuff, and I'm going to add in 45 minute easy trainer rides on Tuesday and Thursday (I would normally do an hour - these will be followed by 15 minutes of stretching and core) and see how it goes. If it goes well, I'll do 75 minutes on Sunday and up the intensity in the following week.

Chris S · « **Reply #1486 on:** 10 March, 2019, 09:14:52 pm »

Same 200 as Rob for us. According to Strava, I spent 5h 28m at Tempo. Bloody headwind.

Peat · « **Reply #1487 on:** 14 March, 2019, 08:40:04 am »

I have a wheel-on, fluid ergo trainer thing coupled with a power meter.

Tried Zwift for 2 months. Didn't really get on with it. The racing was fun, but the training very meh. I think I was missing alot of the experience by not having a smart trainer.
Just been trying Sufferfest and have gone off that already after 2x sessions. The workouts are really bitty, again i think the lack of smart trainer kills it. Each block is broken up into sub-blocks of 20s or so. It takes me about 15s to workout the correct gear and cadence to get the required power.

So, one left. The one i've suspected i'd like the most. TrainerRoad. We'll see.

tbh, I really enjoy (as much as you can enjoy turbo) the GCN videos on YouTube. Nice instructional vid, decent length blocks, varied. (FREE!) Great.

DuncanM · « **Reply #1488 on:** 14 March, 2019, 09:01:32 am »

Quote from: Peat on 14 March, 2019, 08:40:04 am

I have a wheel-on, fluid ergo trainer thing coupled with a power meter.

Tried Zwift for 2 months. Didn't really get on with it. The racing was fun, but the training very meh. I think I was missing alot of the experience by not having a smart trainer.
Just been trying Sufferfest and have gone off that already after 2x sessions. The workouts are really bitty, again i think the lack of smart trainer kills it. Each block is broken up into sub-blocks of 20s or so. It takes me about 15s to workout the correct gear and cadence to get the required power.

So, one left. The one i've suspected i'd like the most. TrainerRoad. We'll see.

tbh, I really enjoy (as much as you can enjoy turbo) the GCN videos on YouTube. Nice instructional vid, decent length blocks, varied. (FREE!) Great.

Have you registered for Trainer Road yet? If not, then I can send you a referral for a free month. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you the invite.

I like TR. I used to use a dumb trainer with a power meter, but I got a smart trainer (wheel on) secondhand around Christmas. It makes it easier to do steps and spikes consistently, and it means I can run my fixie on there rather than having to use gears, but it's not a quantum leap forwards.
I did a TR ride this morning - part of my return from my back issues. 45 minutes in zone 2 - lots of it in the aero bars. My back, legs, lungs were all good, but my triceps are a bit tight - I think because my arms are quite close together. I'm gonna do 1.25 hours on Sunday, and if I can do that without needing to stretch (today's stretch was just precautionary) then I think I'm good to do sweet spot next week.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/52408610-birch

rob · « **Reply #1489 on:** 17 March, 2019, 05:20:02 pm »

Quote from: rob on 10 March, 2019, 01:53:03 pm

Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons. 2hr tempo like session planned for this morning. Managed 90 mins but really stuffed. I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery. Either that or take the 200k easier.

Similar weekend. Tough 200 Saturday. Similar turbo session to last week but done at 3pm instead. Made it through but my legs are now quite ripped up.

Frank9755 · « **Reply #1490 on:** 17 March, 2019, 08:35:43 pm »

I'm wondering if trainerroad is working for me.
I did my first proper road ride for ages on Saturday when I started the Dean. I ended up DNFing but that wasn't a big deal (don't need PBP qual or auk points and have done it load of times before, just didn't fancy the wind getting stronger and rain in the dark). What bothered me was that, once I'd started and settled into a comfortable pace, I was so much slower than in the past!
Maybe I've lost more power than I realised with not riding as much in the last couple of years, but I have a nagging suspicion that the trainerroad stuff is just a bit too easy, so hasn't done me much good. I only did 140km on Saturday but I felt a lot more tired from it than I have from the toughest trainerroad sessions
Maybe I just need to get out on my bike a bit more.

rob · « **Reply #1491 on:** 17 March, 2019, 09:31:30 pm »

Quote from: Frank9755 on 17 March, 2019, 08:35:43 pm

I'm wondering if trainerroad is working for me.
I did my first proper road ride for ages on Saturday when I started the Dean. I ended up DNFing but that wasn't a big deal (don't need PBP qual or auk points and have done it load of times before, just didn't fancy the wind getting stronger and rain in the dark). What bothered me was that, once I'd started and settled into a comfortable pace, I was so much slower than in the past!
Maybe I've lost more power than I realised with not riding as much in the last couple of years, but I have a nagging suspicion that the trainerroad stuff is just a bit too easy, so hasn't done me much good. I only did 140km on Saturday but I felt a lot more tired from it than I have from the toughest trainerroad sessions
Maybe I just need to get out on my bike a bit more.

Whilst a lot of testers can survive on turbo only, Tops as an example, I still believe there is no substitute for decent long road miles. Apart from a short spell of injury induced turbo time, I’ve always used the turbo for supplementary specific work with the majority of weekly hours on the road. I have been very surprised by how little prep some ultra racers do in this area.

I think you just need to get a few long rides in once it’s a bit more Spring-like. Besides, Saturday was a shocking day.

simonp · « **Reply #1492 on:** 17 March, 2019, 09:42:46 pm »

I agree - some long rides needed.

I was tired after 58km today though I have been feeling under the weather for a few days.

Peat · « **Reply #1493 on:** 18 March, 2019, 09:47:30 am »

Wasn't all of that 140km into a 40mph headwind though, Frank? Unless you were religiously riding to power, I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of your speed.

DuncanM · « **Reply #1494 on:** 18 March, 2019, 10:07:08 am »

The wind this weekend was nuts.

I did another tempo ride on TR as I get back to riding after my back, this time of 1hr 15 minutes). It was really boring. I much prefer rides with varying hard-easy sections than these ones where you just go quite hard for ages.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/52605200-cumberland-2

Peat · « **Reply #1495 on:** 18 March, 2019, 10:14:15 am »

I was very unaudacious. I binned off the Dean and took an early train to Bristol and bimbled back 130km in Z2 & 3 with a glorious wind assist.
Backed that up with a 3/4 70km on Sunday.

Physio appointments and instruction seem to be working. I experienced no pain this weekend.
I had been suffering with a thoroughly knotted right quad and buttock, which hurt, but also caused me pain in my lower back. Diagnosed as a shortened and inflamed Psoas muscle. Weekly release massage and a program of stretching and cross training (started running) and it's made a word of difference already.

Frank9755 · « **Reply #1496 on:** 18 March, 2019, 11:11:26 am »

Quote from: Peat on 18 March, 2019, 09:47:30 am

Wasn't all of that 140km into a 40mph headwind though, Frank? Unless you were religiously riding to power, I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of your speed.

No, I turned back after 70km, and I was watching power rather than speed. Power numbers were low and I knew speed must be because people kept coming past me!
It was interesting to do some of a familiar route backwards: the climb up the back road to Coombe Hill is very steep, as is Winchcombe from the other side. The wind meant I spun out on the long, slow descents on the way back. Still hairy riding with the wind though - It was very strong going up Winchcombe from the west and, riding at a very slow speed, I got blown off at one point.

Frank9755 · « **Reply #1497 on:** 18 March, 2019, 11:14:23 am »

Quote from: rob on 17 March, 2019, 09:31:30 pm

Whilst a lot of testers can survive on turbo only, Tops as an example, I still believe there is no substitute for decent long road miles. Apart from a short spell of injury induced turbo time, I’ve always used the turbo for supplementary specific work with the majority of weekly hours on the road. I have been very surprised by how little prep some ultra racers do in this area.

I think you just need to get a few long rides in once it’s a bit more Spring-like. Besides, Saturday was a shocking day.

Yes, that's what I am starting to think. Should be possible following a bit of negotiation with my wife (she is very supportive so I am lucky in that respect!)
I also think that people like Tops (and maybe you to an extent from some of your descriptions) are able to push themselves much harder on the turbo than I am willing to. Also using erg mode means that when I find something a bit easy / having a good day, there isn't a way to put a bit more in. Will do a bit of re-planning.

DuncanM · « **Reply #1498 on:** 18 March, 2019, 11:19:31 am »

Quote from: Frank9755 on 18 March, 2019, 11:14:23 am

I also think that people like Tops (and maybe you to an extent from some of your descriptions) are able to push themselves much harder on the turbo than I am willing to. Also using erg mode means that when I find something a bit easy / having a good day, there isn't a way to put a bit more in.

I don't know if the ability to torture oneself on the turbo is a strength or a character flaw!

In TR, you can always turn up the intensity if it's too easy (and you know how hard it's supposed to be). I don't know about other platforms...

rob · « **Reply #1499 on:** 18 March, 2019, 01:29:10 pm »

Quote from: DuncanM on 18 March, 2019, 11:19:31 am

Quote from: Frank9755 on 18 March, 2019, 11:14:23 am
I also think that people like Tops (and maybe you to an extent from some of your descriptions) are able to push themselves much harder on the turbo than I am willing to. Also using erg mode means that when I find something a bit easy / having a good day, there isn't a way to put a bit more in.
I don't know if the ability to torture oneself on the turbo is a strength or a character flaw!

In TR, you can always turn up the intensity if it's too easy (and you know how hard it's supposed to be). I don't know about other platforms...

I'm honestly not that great at the really hard top end sessions. I can do plenty of volume at endurance/tempo, though. This is obviously the key given my main race distances. I'll never be a great 10 rider or a pursuiter.

I'm not sure how easy it is but why not turn the tech off for a while and just go by HR/speed ? I'm training on fixed on a magnetic turbo and leave the resistance on a single setting. If I want to go harder I increase speed and if I want to back off I just slow down. I just watch cadence and HR now.

Author Topic: Base training (Read 252101 times)

simonp

Phil W

Phil W

rob

simonp

rob

Chris S

rob

rob

simonp

rob